# Non-Apology Apologies and why they don't help a goddamn thing **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 13, 2005, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187 "2005-04-13T20:55:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Flander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8c91f0/32.png) [@Flander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flander)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/81 "2005-04-14T22:28:37Z")
Now you’re arguing about board policy? Getting back to your original beef, _you_ thought that **CKDH** insulted you. He disagrees. A review of what he typed reveals that he was correct in that he didn’t insult _you_, but rather a course of action suggested by you. Since he was basically right, he isn’t going to offer a REAL apology, especially a sincere one since he has no reason to be sincere in apologizing. Don’t pit him for offering a “non-apology apology” when he has no reason to offer one in the first place. Don’t nitpick the wording of his posts to try to dig your way out of a shit hole. And for fuck’s sake, quit using fucking word equations in your posts! ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/82 "2005-04-14T22:55:56Z")
> [@Flander](#): > > Getting back to your original beef, _you_ thought that **CKDH** insulted you. He disagrees. A review of what he typed reveals that he was correct in that he didn’t insult _you_, but rather a course of action suggested by you. Apparently to **Minnie** - and only **Minnie** - the action and the person are one in the same. ---
**Author:** ![MinniePurl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cab0a1/32.png) [@MinniePurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MinniePurl)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/83 "2005-04-14T23:09:57Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > That’s where you’re having a disconnect. The rule was initially etablished in Great Debates, where personal attacks are not allowed. It is, however, allowable to attack the argument. Saying the argument is trolling is allowed but saying the poster who made the argument is not. I wasn’t making an argument. I was asking a question. In the answer, I got what was quite apparent to me as an insult. Not the world’s worst insult, no. But an insult, nonetheless, in response to a polite question. I asked why exactly did I need to be insulted? I got two non-apology apologies. That’s what really pissed me off. The fact that no one could just say “Okay, using the word “assinine” to talk about posters who are generally behaving and obeying the rules wasn’t a very good idea.” I still think the troll/GD rule is ridiculous. Saying “I disagree with your argument because of this fact or this opinion”-- THAT’S having a discussion. Or saying “your argument is weak because of X,Y, and Z.” “Your argument is asinine” is just insulting someone, not debating them. ---
**Author:** ![MinniePurl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cab0a1/32.png) [@MinniePurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MinniePurl)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/84 "2005-04-14T23:14:53Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Apparently to **Minnie** - and only **Minnie** - the action and the person are one in the same. If I knit something, that makes me a knitter. If I pay taxes, that makes me a taxpayer. If you perform an action, you become a person who performs that action. If I say George W. Bush tells lies, I’m calling him a liar. It’s quite simple, except when you want to be deliberately obtuse to suck up to a mod. ---
**Author:** ![MinniePurl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cab0a1/32.png) [@MinniePurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MinniePurl)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/85 "2005-04-14T23:21:28Z")
> [@Flander](#): > > Now you’re arguing about board policy? > > Getting back to your original beef, _you_ thought that **CKDH** insulted you. He disagrees. A review of what he typed reveals that he was correct in that he didn’t insult _you_, but rather a course of action suggested by you. Since he was basically right, he isn’t going to offer a REAL apology, especially a sincere one since he has no reason to be sincere in apologizing. > > Don’t pit him for offering a “non-apology apology” when he has no reason to offer one in the first place. Don’t nitpick the wording of his posts to try to dig your way out of a shit hole. And for fuck’s sake, quit using fucking word equations in your posts! If he didn’t mean to insult me, why did he offer a non-apology apology? Why did he not say, “I’m not going to apologize, because I didn’t intend to insult you”? Sincere apology= I did something wrong, but I’m owning up to it. Polite refusal to apologize=I don’t think I did anything wrong. Non-apology apology=I did something wrong, but I’m not taking responsibility for it, I just want you to think I am. ---
**Author:** ![MinniePurl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cab0a1/32.png) [@MinniePurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MinniePurl)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/86 "2005-04-14T23:27:03Z")
Oh, and I’m not holding my breath for any apology, or for anything to change. Like I said, I’m not stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/87 "2005-04-14T23:31:32Z")
> [@MinniePurl](#): > > Like I said, I’m not stupid. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![UrbanChic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9dc877/32.png) [@UrbanChic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UrbanChic)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/88 "2005-04-14T23:36:24Z")
> [@MinniePurl](#): > > Like I said, I’m not stupid. Too easy. Actually, even by your ‘logic’ you’re stupid. You’ve done at least one stupid thing in your life, haven’t you? By your standards, that makes you stupid. Oh, wait. Let me translate that for you: You’ve done at least one stupid thing = you’re stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/89 "2005-04-14T23:37:54Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > As you are most likely aware, it’s against the rules to call anyone a troll. However, it is _not_ against the rules to call somoene’s argument “trolling”. Ergo, if I were to say that I think your issue with **Dex** is trolling (which I don’t), I wouldn’t attract so much as a warning. You’re wrong about [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=5892509&highlight=trolling#post5892509) > [@Lynn Bodoni](#): > > If you have a question about whether or not someone is trolling, you should report the message. Do NOT make public accusations or even questions about whether someone is trolling. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/90 "2005-04-14T23:43:22Z")
> [@UrbanChic](#): > > You’ve done at least one stupid thing = you’re stupid. No, _if_ you’ve done at least one stupid thing… It all boils down to the nuances of the spoken word. On a message board. Of course, _if_ the OP has to read all the posts out loud while reading them, then they’re as dumb as a brick. _If_ they know what _that_ means. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/91 "2005-04-14T23:48:27Z")
> [@Flander](#): > > Getting back to your original beef, _you_ thought that **CKDH** insulted you. He disagrees. A review of what he typed reveals that he was correct in that he didn’t insult _you_, but rather a course of action suggested by you. Even if we avoid the semantics of whether describing as asinine an action you admitted to performing means that _you_ are being described as asinine, it is still rude to reply to a simple question like “Can we do X on the SDMB?” with “Do X on the SDMB? How asinine!”, especially outside of the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![MinniePurl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cab0a1/32.png) [@MinniePurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MinniePurl)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/92 "2005-04-15T00:16:02Z")
Oh no! **Tapioca** , **Miller** and **UrbanChic** think I’m stupid! I suppose this means all my hopes of being elected Queen of the **Dex’s Knob Gobbler Club** are just DASHED! DASHED!!! \ ---
**Author:** ![MinniePurl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cab0a1/32.png) [@MinniePurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MinniePurl)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/93 "2005-04-15T00:22:58Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > Even if we avoid the semantics of whether describing as asinine an action you admitted to performing means that _you_ are being described as asinine, it is still rude to reply to a simple question like “Can we do X on the SDMB?” with “Do X on the SDMB? How asinine!”, especially outside of the Pit. Yes, exactly. Even if we leave that other part aside, because I don’t think either of us is going to convince the other, that was just plain rude. Whether you think he was personally insulting me or not. How about “You didn’t know SkipMagic was a mod now? How asinine!” or “You’re wondering why no one told you about the indent tag? How asinine!” ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/95 "2005-04-15T00:42:29Z")
> [@MinniePurl](#): > > Oh no! **Tapioca** , **Miller** and **UrbanChic** think I’m stupid! I suppose this means all my hopes of being elected Queen of the **Dex’s Knob Gobbler Club** are just DASHED! DASHED!!! \ I’m insulted by the implied homophobia in your post, and demand an apology. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/96 "2005-04-15T01:20:20Z")
**Minnie** , I don’t know if you have kids, or if your parents ever said this, but when I was little, and I did something wrong, my mother would point out to me that just because I did something wrong, that was stupid, did not mean that I was stupid, or that she didn’t like ME. She just didn’t like what I did. By your logic, if your kid misbehaves (as every kid has done), that makes the kid a bad kid. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/97 "2005-04-15T02:19:05Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > You’re wrong about [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=5892509&highlight=trolling#post5892509) I’m not so sure. > [@](#): > > [Originally posted by **Gaudere**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4823953&highlight=trollish#post4823953) > I have laid out clearly what the rules of GD were in this instance: we’ve allowed liar before, we’ve allowed “_this post_ is trollish” before, and “you should be banned” has been allowed in the Pit before w/o a junior mod warning. It is the last, and the overall tone that got the warning; “liar” and “insult the post, not the poster” has been around FOREVER in GD, and any attempt to say we’re only allowing it now because we wuv manny is rewriting history. > > :snip: > > > [@](#): > > > > Sorry, but that’s not the same thing. An argument can be stupid - or, more politely and more accurately, logically flawed. A post cannot logically be a troll. Cannot. Only a poster can be a troll. > > Sure a post can be a troll. > > Main Entry: 2troll > Function: noun > : a lure or a line with its lure and hook used in trolling > > Saying “this post is a troll” is saying “this post is a baited hook”. Now, DNFTT is calling a _poster_ a troll, not the post, which is why I don’t allow it. Troll-as-a-post cannot eat and so does not need to be fed so in this case I don’t think it can be considered referring to the post. ---
**Author:** ![Diane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2acd7d/32.png) [@Diane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diane)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/98 "2005-04-15T02:24:57Z")
I started forming a dumbed down explanation to you showing how Dex nost certainly did not insult you and really had no reason to reply. The further I got into this thread, the more I realized that no matter how dumbed down I made it, it wouldn’t be dumbed down enough for you to get it. Stop with the spit-flying hysterics long enough to go back and read, very carefully, word for word, ask if you need help, and you will see that he did not insult you. It has nothing to do with mothers or people who live in Colorado or size 8 1/2 shoes. It has to do with you going total batshit by seeing something that wasn’t there. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/99 "2005-04-15T02:25:13Z")
> [@MinniePurl](#): > > If he didn’t mean to insult me, why did he offer a non-apology apology? Why did he not say, “I’m not going to apologize, because I didn’t intend to insult you”? You could have _asked_ him what he meant instead of immediately assuming the worst. ---
**Author:** ![Diane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2acd7d/32.png) [@Diane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diane)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/100 "2005-04-15T02:28:07Z")
> [@Diane](#): > > I started forming a dumbed down explanation to you showing how Dex nost certainly did not insult you and really had no reason to reply. I’m tired. Let me retry that sentence. I started forming a dumbed down explanation to you showing how Dex most certainly did not insult you and really had no reason to APOLOGIZE. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/101 "2005-04-15T02:31:51Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > I’m not so sure. I guess **Lynn** and **Gaudere** need to agree on the policy then, don’t they? Unless, **Lynn** ’s statement, made on 02-27-2005, reflects the new rule, while **Gaudere** ’s statement, made on 05-04-2004, reflects the old rule. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187.md?page=6)