# Non Believers; You just learned God existed. Now what? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 7, 2013, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-believers-you-just-learned-god-existed-now-what/655074 "2013-04-07T14:39:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-believers-you-just-learned-god-existed-now-what/655074/61 "2013-04-08T17:38:50Z")
> [@MyFootsZZZ](#): > > You believe him because the alternative is the \*\*promise \*\*of Hell. Waitaminute, who’s making the promise again? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-believers-you-just-learned-god-existed-now-what/655074/62 "2013-04-08T17:51:48Z")
> [@MyFootsZZZ](#): > > **Non Believers; You just learned God existed. Now what?** 40 species of parrot . . . nipples for men . . . What were You **thinking?!** ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-believers-you-just-learned-god-existed-now-what/655074/63 "2013-04-08T17:56:54Z")
I’m with **John Mace**. I mean, I’m as ath-y as the next atheist, but I don’t think people are really conceptualizing hell. It is not just a weekend of torment, or a week, or a year. Not a thousand years, or a million, or a billion, or a trillion. It is unending, eternity, with no hope of ever escaping. And you are willing to go there just to make a point? Sure. Count me out. I’m worshipping the shit out of this God. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-believers-you-just-learned-god-existed-now-what/655074/64 "2013-04-08T18:00:53Z")
> [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](#): > > I’m with **John Mace**. I mean, I’m as ath-y as the next atheist, but I don’t think people are really conceptualizing hell. It is not just a weekend of torment, or a week, or a year. Not a thousand years, or a million, or a billion, or a trillion. It is unending, eternity, with no hope of ever escaping. And you are willing to go there just to make a point? Sure. Count me out. I’m worshipping the shit out of this God. And how is that any worse than “heaven”? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-believers-you-just-learned-god-existed-now-what/655074/65 "2013-04-08T18:03:16Z")
> [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](#): > > I’m with **John Mace**. I mean, I’m as ath-y as the next atheist, but I don’t think people are really conceptualizing hell. It is not just a weekend of torment, or a week, or a year. Not a thousand years, or a million, or a billion, or a trillion. It is unending, eternity, with no hope of ever escaping. And you are willing to go there just to make a point? Sure. Count me out. I’m worshipping the shit out of this God. A sick entity that could see a use for, and create, a place of _eternal_ torment will find some way to use it on you, no matter how slight the transgression. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-believers-you-just-learned-god-existed-now-what/655074/66 "2013-04-08T18:12:59Z")
> [@For You](#): > > And how is that any worse than “heaven”? Well, I actually agree with you that the concept of heaven is pretty unappealing. (Coincidentally, I just last week read Bernard Williams’ article “The Makropolus Case”, where he argues that eternal life after death is not desirable.) But if life after death were mandatory, I would certainly prefer the boredom of heaven to the torment of hell. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > A sick entity that could see a use for, and create, a place of _eternal_ torment will find some way to use it on you, no matter how slight the transgression. Maybe. But if there’s even a chance of escaping hell, I’m going to try. Besides (this may be cheating), the OPer said one has to follow God to enter heaven. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-believers-you-just-learned-god-existed-now-what/655074/67 "2013-04-08T18:32:22Z")
> [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](#): > > Well, I actually agree with you that the concept of heaven is pretty unappealing. (Coincidentally, I just last week read Bernard Williams’ article “The Makropolus Case”, where he argues that eternal life after death is not desirable.) But if life after death were mandatory, I would certainly prefer the boredom of heaven to the torment of hell. The way I understand it, “Hell” in the sense f Christian doctrine, derives from the “Lake of Fire” described in Revelation. In this description, souls are not eternally tormented in the flames, rather they are wiped out from existence: oblivion was regarded as an undesirable thing to the people of the day. “Eternal torment” is a questionable premise. > [@](#): > > Maybe. But if there’s even a chance of escaping hell, I’m going to try. Besides (this may be cheating), the OPer said one has to follow God to enter heaven. Which raises an interesting question that could maybe spin off another thread: if this god commanded you to do a thing which you knew to be immoral (e.g., genocide), would you compromise your good conscience to avoid hell? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-believers-you-just-learned-god-existed-now-what/655074/68 "2013-04-08T18:33:47Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > I’d challenge him to a drinking contest. Once you have him under the table, how should we humiliate him? ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-believers-you-just-learned-god-existed-now-what/655074/69 "2013-04-08T19:26:26Z")
> [@For You](#): > > Once you have him under the table, how should we humiliate him? Sharpie moustache. A classic. ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-believers-you-just-learned-god-existed-now-what/655074/70 "2013-04-08T20:52:20Z")
> [@For You](#): > > “Eternal torment” is a questionable premise. Yep, but the OP stated that the fundamentalists were right. And they generally go with the eternal torment interpretation. :eek: **Sophistry and Illusion** , I think most of us would do what we could to avoid hellfire… “You have rules I must follow? No pork, no poly-cotton, no lobster… sure thing boss!”. The problem arises if the worship must be genuine and not based in fear… “You want me to love you unreservedly?! Then why the hell didn’t you make me differently, putz!”. Grovel, sure. Do something outside of my nature, no idea. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-believers-you-just-learned-god-existed-now-what/655074/71 "2013-04-08T20:58:14Z")
He built a place of eternal torment-do you think he’s going to let you _pretend_ to worship and love him unconditionally? Threats like that are meant to break the spirit and mind. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-believers-you-just-learned-god-existed-now-what/655074/72 "2013-04-08T21:19:06Z")
> [@For You](#): > > Once you have him under the table, how should we humiliate him? Shave one eyebrow! ---
**Author:** ![akennett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee59a6/32.png) [@akennett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akennett)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-believers-you-just-learned-god-existed-now-what/655074/73 "2013-04-08T22:21:25Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Well, no. You’re not expected to not eat pork, etc… If you’re not a Jew. And you’re not expected to convert, either. Besides, there would probably be no hell. But if you want to argue that way, you need to take it to its conclusion, namely that if you’re not a Jew, you’re not expected to worship that god. The OT clearly acknowledges that other peoples have their own gods…so you now have to go cling to that one. ---
**Author:** ![cinnamontictacs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cinnamontictacs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cinnamontictacs)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-believers-you-just-learned-god-existed-now-what/655074/74 "2013-04-08T22:27:36Z")
Of course I would - anything is better than hell right?! This is why I find it hard to really hate and judge religious fundamentalists who have been raised/brainwashed to fear hell since they were old enough to understand. If I truly believed in that shit I’d probably do whatever awful thing I was told too. ---
**Author:** ![Battle\_Pope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Battle\_Pope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Battle_Pope)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-believers-you-just-learned-god-existed-now-what/655074/75 "2013-04-08T22:34:40Z")
> [@For You](#): > > Once you have him under the table, how should we humiliate him? Just above his butt-crack draw an arrow pointing down and write “Zeus was here”. The other gods will love it. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-believers-you-just-learned-god-existed-now-what/655074/76 "2013-04-08T23:12:03Z")
> [@cinnamontictacs](#): > > Of course I would - anything is better than hell right?! This is why I find it hard to really hate and judge religious fundamentalists who have been raised/brainwashed to fear hell since they were old enough to understand. If I truly believed in that shit I’d probably do whatever awful thing I was told too. I understand wanting to do “right” so you don’t go to hell. I’m a goody-two-shoes myself. I’ve always been more afraid of consequences than inner integrity. I’d probably be the main one killing some babies on the altar of the Psycho from the Q-Continuum. I have a low pain threshold and eternal hellfire would really mess with my smooth skin. But the thing I don’t understand about devout followers is the _love_ they claim they have for the diety that renders such harsh punishment A human father who tortures one of his children for the crime of not believing a far-fetched ghost story would be labeled an abusive monster. Especially so if that person demanded he be loved and worshipped for doing things no one asked him to do in the first place. But an invisible supernatural entity does the same thing? Let’s raise our hands in praise, halleluiah! I guess because God commanded that we worship him, the emotional devotion is also an act. Maybe at first it’s inauthentic, but you do it enough times and you’ll get the feeling. But you can’t think about it too much because if you do, you might falter. ---
**Author:** ![cinnamontictacs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cinnamontictacs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cinnamontictacs)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-believers-you-just-learned-god-existed-now-what/655074/77 "2013-04-08T23:28:25Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I understand wanting to do “right” so you don’t go to hell. I’m a goody-two-shoes myself. I’ve always been more afraid of consequences than inner integrity. I’d probably be the main one killing some babies on the altar of the Psycho from the Q-Continuum. I have a low pain threshold and eternal hellfire would really mess with my smooth skin. > > But the thing I don’t understand about devout followers is the _love_ they claim they have for the diety that renders such harsh punishment A human father who tortures one of his children for the crime of not believing a far-fetched ghost story would be labeled an abusive monster. Especially so if that person demanded he be loved and worshipped for doing things no one asked him to do in the first place. But an invisible supernatural entity does the same thing? Let’s raise our hands in praise, halleluiah! > > **I guess because God commanded that we worship him, the emotional devotion is also an act. Maybe at first it’s inauthentic, but you do it enough times and you’ll get the feeling. But you can’t think about it too much because if you do, you might falter**. Interesting thought. It does make you wonder when it comes to god-fearing religious followers, is that compassion and love genuine or entirely based on self-gain? I guess it doesn’t really matter if ultimately you are just trying to stay out of hell! ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2013, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-believers-you-just-learned-god-existed-now-what/655074/78 "2013-04-09T00:01:51Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > But the thing I don’t understand about devout followers is the _love_ they claim they have for the diety that renders such harsh punishment Stockholm Syndrome, perhaps. ---
**Author:** ![Aizle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Aizle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aizle)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2013, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-believers-you-just-learned-god-existed-now-what/655074/79 "2013-04-09T02:20:59Z")
I’d like to think I’d have the integrity of facing him and calling him on his actions and general crappy handling of creation. ---
**Author:** ![Slypork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@Slypork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slypork)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2013, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-believers-you-just-learned-god-existed-now-what/655074/80 "2013-04-09T19:39:33Z")
[But does he need a starship?](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYW_lPlekiQ) OK, so the big guy shows up, says, “I’m tired of all these guessing games. I’m the one who started it all going, sent out messengers and prophets with my message and you still doubted me. I sent my kid preaching a message of love and you killed him. You’ve mixed up and perverted my message of loving each other and treating each other with some measure of respect. Well, now I’m back and you’re going to do things the way I wanted all along.” He says we don’t even have to go to his Top 10 list, just the big two that JC dropped in Matthew 22:36-40: > [@](#): > > 1. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. > 2. Love your neighbor as yourself. Well, you know what? That’s not too hard to deal with. Could I be so ungrateful to the boss that gave me life, the universe and Hooters waitresses that I’d thumb my nose at him? Sure, things are a mess. Maybe it was because he gave us the chance to do everything on our own and we screwed the pooch. Now he’s back and given the choice of joining the team or getting booted I’ll gladly become a fan. Go team! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-believers-you-just-learned-god-existed-now-what/655074.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-believers-you-just-learned-god-existed-now-what/655074.md?page=5)