# Non-British citizens receiving an honorary knighhood many not call themselves "Sir". Is that correc **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 29, 2014, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026 "2014-01-29T10:32:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026/21 "2014-01-30T01:13:57Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > So my plan is to move to London, do my 5 years of the Lunar House shuffle and then apply for citizenship. Since I plan on getting my knighthood earlier rather than later i.e. within the first five years, can I be called Sir Saint Cad once I get British (or United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland) citizenship? Nope. If, at the time of your appointment, you are not a citizen of a Commonwealth Realm, you will be appointed a supernumerary member of the order. If you later become a citizen of a Commonwealth realm that won’t change, unless and until the government of the realm concerned advised the Queen to change it. So, if they offer you a knighthood within the first five years, demur blushingly and ask instead for an hon. OBE plus appointment to a public service sinecure instead - Elder Brother of Trinity House would do nicely, and I hear the dinners are very good. After a few years of hard dining on behalf of the nation (during which you will have been naturalised) you can then let it be known that modesty prevents you from disputing that your sterling efforts for the national betterment and your copious donations to political parties are by now sufficient to justify the ‘K’. ---
**Author:** ![Kiwi\_Fruit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kiwi_fruit/32/12_2.png) [@Kiwi\_Fruit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiwi_Fruit)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026/22 "2014-01-30T01:53:35Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > Move to Australia instead. The food is better, the climate more comfortable and when you are knighted by the Queen of Australia you receive vegemite with your title. Plus, if you ever travel to England you can storm Buckingham Palace riding an emu, throwing boomerangs to disable Palace guards. Problem is that Australia doesn’t award knighthoods any more. Try New Zealand. We dropped the British ones (GBE, KBE, DBE) and instated some of our own. GNZM, KNZM and DNZM can be awarded to NZers or citizens of Commonwealth Realms and entitle ordinary holders to be styled Sir Joe Bloggs. Also, we offer Marmite and kiwifruit. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026/23 "2014-01-30T01:56:42Z")
Need answer fast? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026/24 "2014-01-30T03:33:26Z")
And then there are the wonderful fudges that can go on. Broadcaster Terry Wogan who is Irish but has earned his crust in the UK for most of his life was given a Knighthood, initially as an honorary affair as even though he is a British “National Treasure”, he retains his Irish citizenship. Then it was pointed out that as he was born before he full separation of the Southern Counties in 1949, he was in fact eligible to assert his right to full British citizenship, and did so, allowing him to be formally Sir Terry Wogan. The political and personal boundaries between British and Irish, Britain and Ireland, are incredibly complex! ---
**Author:** ![installLSC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/54ee81/32.png) [@installLSC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/installLSC)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026/25 "2014-01-30T04:11:49Z")
Couple of questions: –Do knights in the UK (or any other nation) get any special legal status whether they are on domestic soil or foreign soil? –Could anyone claiming to be a knight (but not legally able to hold that title) be prosecuted on fraud or similar charges? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026/26 "2014-01-30T04:28:12Z")
> [@installLSC](#): > > Couple of questions: > –Do knights in the UK (or any other nation) get any special legal status whether they are on domestic soil or foreign soil? > –Could anyone claiming to be a knight (but not legally able to hold that title) be prosecuted on fraud or similar charges? No special privileges except being a member of the order. Some orders are more collegial than others! In the UK you can call yourself what you want; if you do so to commit fraud that would be an offence. You could change your name to Sir Fred Bloggs, or Lord Bloggs of Neasden and have that on all your ID- but use it illegally and that will be sanctioned; use it to get a good table in a restaurant- that is OK. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026/27 "2014-01-30T04:30:28Z")
> [@installLSC](#): > > Couple of questions: > –Do knights in the UK (or any other nation) get any special legal status whether they are on domestic soil or foreign soil? I’m not an expert, but I think the answer is “no.” One thing to remember is that a knight is not a lord or nobleman – known in Britain as a “peer of the realm.” A knighthood really just is an honor. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026/28 "2014-01-30T05:02:24Z")
I guess since I’m not a subject of the realm but if I had an honorary KBE, DBE, or GBE and I was passing through a reception line to shake hands with the Queen, Princes Charles, Andrew, William, or Harold and I was wearing my decoration, they might call me “Sir Ranger”, but I’m pretty sure there’d be a wink involved also. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026/29 "2014-01-30T05:16:32Z")
> [@installLSC](#): > > Couple of questions: > –Do knights in the UK (or any other nation) get any special legal status whether they are on domestic soil or foreign soil? No, but they do find their names placed on the dragon-slaying rota, in the event that any dragons show up. > [@installLSC](#): > > –Could anyone claiming to be a knight (but not legally able to hold that title) be prosecuted on fraud or similar charges? Nope; they just place the guy’s name on the dragon-slaying rota _every day_. If a dragon shows up, well, that just means that sufficient punishment will be applying soon. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026/30 "2014-01-30T05:32:36Z")
> [@installLSC](#): > > Couple of questions: > –Do knights in the UK (or any other nation) get any special legal status whether they are on domestic soil or foreign soil? No. > [@installLSC](#): > > –Could anyone claiming to be a knight (but not legally able to hold that title) be prosecuted on fraud or similar charges? In the UK, the crown is “the fount of all honours”, and anyone claiming and using an honour not granted by the crown is, at least in theory, infringing on the crown’s prerogative (by purporting to grant to himself an honour which only the crown can grant). This is unlawful. It may or may not be an offence, depending on the circumstances. It is, however, very rarely prosecuted as an offence. The British authorities tend to take the view that anyone who is not a knight but is calling himself “Sir John Smith” is presumed not to be claiming to be a knight; he is claiming to be a gentleman with the forename “Sir”, and there’s nothing illegal about that. You can assume any name you like. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026/31 "2014-01-30T05:39:37Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > I guess since I’m not a subject of the realm but if I had an honorary KBE, DBE, or GBE and I was passing through a reception line to shake hands with the Queen, Princes Charles, Andrew, William, or Harold and I was wearing my decoration, they might call me “Sir Ranger”, but I’m pretty sure there’d be a wink involved also. Minor nitpick - Henry, not Harold. ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026/32 "2014-01-30T05:49:14Z")
So, how _do_ you get a Knighthood? ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026/33 "2014-01-30T06:37:37Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > So, how _do_ you get a Knighthood? The government of a Commonwealth realm advises the Queen to grant you one. To do this, the government has to think that you are a Splendid Chap. Quite a number of Commonwealth Realms have governments who have a policy of _never_ recommending people for knighthoods - it offends their democratic sensibilities - so pick a realm whose government has no such scruples, and try to endear yourself to its government so that they can perceive your full Splendidity. In most cases, a long career in the civil service, culminating in appointment to a very senior office, is taken as irrefutable proof of Splendidity. This is probably the surest way to a knighthood, along with a legal career leading to appointment as a High Court Judge (or better). If time and/or your career aspirations do not permit this, then (a) really conspicuous public acheivement in a charitable or educational field, or (b) a high-acheiving career in commerce or industry plus some strikingly generous donations to the right political party, or (c) a long career as loyal lobby-fodder as a backbench MP, are probably your best bets. ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026/34 "2014-01-30T07:11:04Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > The government of a Commonwealth realm advises the Queen to grant you one. > > To do this, the government has to think that you are a Splendid Chap. Quite a number of Commonwealth Realms have governments who have a policy of _never_ recommending people for knighthoods - it offends their democratic sensibilities - so pick a realm whose government has no such scruples, and try to endear yourself to its government so that they can perceive your full Splendidity. > > In most cases, a long career in the civil service, culminating in appointment to a very senior office, is taken as irrefutable proof of Splendidity. This is probably the surest way to a knighthood, along with a legal career leading to appointment as a High Court Judge (or better). If time and/or your career aspirations do not permit this, then (a) really conspicuous public acheivement in a charitable or educational field, or (b) a high-acheiving career in commerce or industry plus some strikingly generous donations to the right political party, or (c) a long career as loyal lobby-fodder as a backbench MP, are probably your best bets. This…sounds unseemly. Frankly, it sounds less like “splendid chap” and more like “weasel with the right connections or extraordinary luck in business”. Ah well, that’s about what I would have expected. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026/35 "2014-01-30T07:13:26Z")
So I should properly address Sir Mixalot as Mr. Mixalot? ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026/36 "2014-01-30T08:12:32Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > So I should properly address Sir Mixalot as Mr. Mixalot? Mr. Sir Mixalot, Mr S. Mixalot or Sir Mixalot Esq would all do. ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026/37 "2014-01-30T08:58:24Z")
The fol,lowing states that knights were “the lowest ranks oft eh nobles”. Is this correct? > **[Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos](https://www.yahoo.com/)** > > Latest news coverage, email, free stock quotes, live scores and video are just the beginning. Discover more every day at Yahoo! “Nobleman was the general label for all of the nobility, from lowly knight to the king himself. Knights were often the lowest ranks of nobles. They exchanged their military service in order to get lands and manors from a higher ranking nobleman.” davidmich ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026/38 "2014-01-30T08:59:40Z")
[http://www.themiddleages.net/life/knights.html](http://www.themiddleages.net/life/knights.html) "Knight is a term to refer to a warrior or nobleman in former times, or today to refer to a person who has been given a royal recognition. The female form of the latter is usually Dame. " ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026/39 "2014-01-30T10:14:39Z")
> [@davidmich](#): > > The fol,lowing states that knights were “the lowest ranks oft eh nobles”. Is this correct? > > [Yahoo Search - Web Search](http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100413194403AAbHYJ1) > > “Nobleman was the general label for all of the nobility, from lowly knight to the king himself. Knights were often the lowest ranks of nobles. They exchanged their military service in order to get lands and manors from a higher ranking nobleman.” > > davidmich Yes. When you’re talking about the titled classes, Knights are the lowest. In the UK, a Knight who is a politician, for example, still sits in the House of Commons, as does the next level up – Baronets (also styled ‘_Sir_’). The \*next \*level up, Baron, styled ‘_Lord_’ would sit in the House of Lords. The highest ranking in the peerage is a Duke. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026/40 "2014-01-30T10:24:10Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > This…sounds unseemly. Frankly, it sounds less like “splendid chap” and more like “weasel with the right connections or extraordinary luck in business”. > > Ah well, that’s about what I would have expected. I think UDS is being a tad too cynical! There are government [honours committees](https://www.gov.uk/honours-committees) that vet candidates in various fields of activity and make recommendations that the PM can then take to the Queen. There are some that the PM can choose to recommend on his own bat, but the vast majority of honours are bestowed on people who do genuinely awesome work in local communities. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026.md?page=3)