# Non-British citizens receiving an honorary knighhood many not call themselves "Sir". Is that correc **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 29, 2014, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026 "2014-01-29T10:32:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026/41 "2014-01-30T11:15:49Z")
> [@Kiwi\_Fruit](#): > > Also, we offer Marmite and kiwifruit. The brown goop labelled “Marmite” in New Zealand is not remotely the same as proper British Marmite, knighthoods or no knighthoods. ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026/42 "2014-01-30T13:40:34Z")
One important point about the rule that non-British citizens who receive British honours don’t get to use that title is that it is reciprocal - [British citizens who receive honours from anyone other than the Queen are also not supposed to use those titles](http://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/foreigntitles.htm). (The cases where this applies are now mostly papal knighthoods.) ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026/43 "2014-01-30T14:29:03Z")
> [@Mk\_VII](#): > > Conrad Black promptly changed his nationality to get a UK Peerage, much to Canada’s annoyance. Who in Canada was annoyed? Who cared, other than Conrad Black? Alas, it’s only Conrad Black and perhaps his wife who care now. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026/44 "2014-01-30T14:49:53Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > So, how _do_ you get a Knighthood? > [@UDS](#): > > The government of a Commonwealth realm advises the Queen to grant you one. > > \ > > In most cases, a long career in the civil service, culminating in appointment to a very senior office, is taken as irrefutable proof of Splendidity. This is probably the surest way to a knighthood, along with a legal career leading to appointment as a High Court Judge (or better). If time and/or your career aspirations do not permit this, then (a) really conspicuous public acheivement in a charitable or educational field, or (b) a high-acheiving career in commerce or industry plus some strikingly generous donations to the right political party, or (c) a long career as loyal lobby-fodder as a backbench MP, are probably your best bets. > [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > There are government [honours committees](https://www.gov.uk/honours-committees) that vet candidates in various fields of activity and make recommendations that the PM can then take to the Queen. There are some that the PM can choose to recommend on his own bat, but the vast majority of honours are bestowed on people who do genuinely awesome work in local communities. The quickest way is be a British citizen who’s good at a sport. Winning two Olympic gold medals is probably the fastest way of all, though perhaps not as easy as completing a career in the civil service. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026/45 "2014-01-30T15:00:54Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > Who in Canada was annoyed? Who cared, other than Conrad Black? > > Alas, it’s only Conrad Black and perhaps his wife who care now. Well, I doubt that Canadians were marching in the streets in protest, but then PM Jean Chretien did complain about it. ---
**Author:** ![Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/46a35a/32.png) [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walker_in_Eternity)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026/46 "2014-01-30T16:00:43Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > This…sounds unseemly. Frankly, it sounds less like “splendid chap” and more like “weasel with the right connections or extraordinary luck in business”. > > Ah well, that’s about what I would have expected. Exactly why I would never accept one (not that I would ever be offered one). The whole system is archaic and if not corrupt then certainly stinks of cronyism. While it’s not a knighthood, even David Cameron’s [hairdresser](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25629480) has received an MBE. Sorry if this is off topic, don’t want to turn it into a GD. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026/47 "2014-01-30T16:11:18Z")
> [@Schnitte](#): > > It all depends on the details of Scottish secession should it occur, of course. The plan of the Scottish government (which favours secession) is to establish a monarchy in a personal union with what remains of the United Kingdom. It would, essentially, be a relationship similar to that between the Commonwealth kingdoms now, so knights with Scottish citizenship would be entitled to the “Sir” prefix just like those of Australian, Canadian etc. citizenship are now. So, who’d win in a fight between a Scottish knight and a Kentucky Colonel? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026/48 "2014-01-30T16:24:50Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > I remember when Bob Geldof got his knighthood, the media took pains to point out that he wasn’t “Sir Bob”. But of course nobody really took any notice. Because “Sir Bob” is fun to say. ISTR Anthony Hopkins lost the right to be referred to as “Sir Anthony” when he became a naturalized US citizen, despite retaining his British citizenship (and the knighthood). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026/49 "2014-01-30T16:39:03Z")
He had to renounce his fealty to the crown in the oath of naturalization but that has no legal effect as far as Britain is concerned. > [@](#): > > I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026/50 "2014-01-30T20:20:52Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > …In most cases, a long career in the civil service, culminating in appointment to a very senior office, is taken as irrefutable proof of Splendidity. This is probably the surest way to a knighthood… From _Yes, Minister_ - “Doing the Honours”: Bernard explains to the Minister the honours available to senior Civil Servants. Hacker: Well, what has Sir Arnold to fear, anyway? He’s got all the honours he could want, surely? Bernard: Well, naturally he has his G. Hacker: G? Bernard: Yes; you get your G after your K. Hacker: You speak in riddles, Bernard. Bernard: Well, take the Foreign Office. First you get the CMG, then the KCMG, then the GCMG; the Commander of the Order of St Michael and St George, Knight Commander of St Michael and St George, Knight Grand Cross of St Michael and St George. Of course, in the Service, CMG stands for “Call Me God,” and KCMG for “Kindly Call Me God.” Hacker: [chuckles] What does GCMG stand for? Bernard: “God Calls Me God.” ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026/51 "2014-01-30T23:32:30Z")
> [@davidmich](#): > > The fol,lowing states that knights were “the lowest ranks oft eh nobles”. Is this correct? > > [Yahoo Search - Web Search](http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100413194403AAbHYJ1) > > “Nobleman was the general label for all of the nobility, from lowly knight to the king himself. Knights were often the lowest ranks of nobles. They exchanged their military service in order to get lands and manors from a higher ranking nobleman.” > > davidmich “Nobility” isn’t a well-defined term, but in the UK at any rate knights are not considered to be noble. Dukes, Marquesses, Earls, Viscounts and Barons all used to have seats in the House of Lords, and (until the introduction of life peerages some time in the 1950s) their titles were all hereditary. They were considered to constitute the nobility. The title of “knight” is a personal honour; it’s not hereditary, and it never carried a right to participate in the House of Lords. Knights were not considered to be part of the nobility. A baronetcy is hereditary, but never carried a seat in the House of Lords; baronets, too, were not considered to be part of the nobility. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026/52 "2014-01-30T23:34:03Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > I think UDS is being a tad too cynical! > > There are government [honours committees](https://www.gov.uk/honours-committees) that vet candidates in various fields of activity and make recommendations that the PM can then take to the Queen. There are some that the PM can choose to recommend on his own bat, but the vast majority of honours are bestowed on people who do genuinely awesome work in local communities. _Honours_, possibly, but the OP asks specifically about _knighthoods_. You don’t get a knighthood for fifty years’ loyal service as an ambulance volunteer. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026/53 "2014-01-31T01:53:17Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > The government of a Commonwealth realm advises the Queen to grant you one… Not always. The Order of the Garter, the Order of the Thistle, and the Royal Victorian Order all within the Queen’s personal gift; they aren’t granted on the advice of any government. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026/54 "2014-01-31T03:14:45Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Not always. The Order of the Garter, the Order of the Thistle, and the Royal Victorian Order all within the Queen’s personal gift; they aren’t granted on the advice of any government. True, but to get one of these what you have to do is convince the Queen that you are a Splendid Chap, and the Queen’s criteria for Splendidity appear to be remarkably similar to the government’s, with the exception that in place of bunging large sums at a political party you can impress the Queen by marrying one of her relatives. (Cynical? Moi?) ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026/55 "2014-01-31T03:44:52Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Not always. The Order of the Garter, the Order of the Thistle, and the Royal Victorian Order all within the Queen’s personal gift; they aren’t granted on the advice of any government. But even then, she doesn’t give out knighthoods in countries where the government policy is against it. When she wanted to give the Garter to Vincent Massey, she knew it would make waves, so she asked the government’s opinion first (they said no). And the current Governor-General of Australia just has a piddly little CVO even though a GCVO would have been automatic twenty or thirty years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026/56 "2014-01-31T04:15:30Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > I still giggle when people try to distinguish between regular and “honorary” knighthoods. Like the regular ones are expected to get some armor and saddle up to defend the queen or something. That would be … AWESOME. ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026/57 "2014-01-31T06:45:27Z")
[http://www.harshlands.net/Pages/Nobility.aspx](http://www.harshlands.net/Pages/Nobility.aspx) ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026/58 "2014-01-31T06:46:47Z")
> **[Knight](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knight)** > > A knight is a person granted an honorary title of knighthood by a head of state (including the Pope) or representative for service to the monarch, the church or the country, especially in a military capacity. Knighthood finds origins in the Ancient Greek hippeis (ἱππεῖς) and Roman equites. > In the Early Middle Ages in Europe, knighthood was conferred upon mounted warriors. During the High Middle Ages, knighthood was considered a class of lower nobility. By the Late Middle Ages, the rank had bec... “A knight is a person granted an honorary title of knighthood by a monarch or other political leader for service to the monarch or country, especially in a military capacity. Historically, in Europe, knighthood has been conferred upon mounted warriors.[1] During the High Middle Ages, knighthood was considered a class of lower nobility. By the Late Middle Ages, the rank had become associated with the ideals of chivalry, a code of conduct for the perfect courtly Christian warrior. Since the Early Modern period, the title of knight is purely honorific, usually bestowed by a monarch, as in the British honours system, often for non-military service to the country.” ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026/59 "2014-02-01T14:45:51Z")
> [@Horatio\_Hellpop](#): > > So, who’d win in a fight between a Scottish knight and a Kentucky Colonel? The [Colonel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_rifle) has greater range than the [knight](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claymore), so it would depend on whether or not the Colonel saw him coming from far enough away. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026/60 "2014-02-01T17:41:58Z")
> [@davidmich](#): > > [Knight - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knight) > > “A knight is a person granted an honorary title of knighthood by a monarch or other political leader for service to the monarch or country, especially in a military capacity. Historically, in Europe, knighthood has been conferred upon mounted warriors.[1] During the High Middle Ages, knighthood was considered a class of lower nobility. By the Late Middle Ages, the rank had become associated with the ideals of chivalry, a code of conduct for the perfect courtly Christian warrior. Since the Early Modern period, the title of knight is purely honorific, usually bestowed by a monarch, as in the British honours system, often for non-military service to the country.” During the hundred years war it was quite possible to buy a knighthood, and for a while was even compulsory once you passed a certain level of wealth, a nice source of income for the Crown. It wasn’t nobility. In the Anglo-Saxon period, whence the word knight, it meant a mounted servant. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-british-citizens-receiving-an-honorary-knighhood-many-not-call-themselves-sir-is-that-correc/680026.md?page=4)