# Non-consensual sex due to alcohol consumption **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 3, 2010, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-consensual-sex-due-to-alcohol-consumption/552497 "2010-09-03T15:27:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2010, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-consensual-sex-due-to-alcohol-consumption/552497/21 "2010-09-03T19:29:25Z")
My opinion is that if you make a bad decision because you, in a sound state of mind, decided to impair your own judgment - tough shit. If Bill Gates gets hammered and signs away his money - too bad, unless someone A.) slipped something in his drink so he could not anticipate his level of intoxication or B.) waited till he was unconscious and forged his signature to make him THINK he consented. But in case A, he hadn’t decided to impair his judgment, and in case B, he didn’t make the decision to hand over the money. So my first sentence sums it up succinctly. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2010, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-consensual-sex-due-to-alcohol-consumption/552497/22 "2010-09-03T19:41:16Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Honestly, **Skateboarder Bo** , I’d think you will be very hard pushed to find cases of a person convicted of rape for having sex with a drunk, but conscious and coherent, girl who agrees to have sex. Convicted, I couldn’t answer to, but if you were still UK resident in the mid 1990s then you might have heard of Austen Donnellan, who was prosecuted for the rape of a Miss X who not only agreed to but enthusiastically demanded sex. Her line was that he knew perfectly well that when sober she considered him six kinds of a creep who she wouldn’t touch with a borrowed bargepole (tho’ from the linked article, he was good enough to listen to her stories about who else she’d been fucking), and although the jury decided this did not after all invalidate her consent, the college authorities were all for having him sent down on the basis of her complaint long before it ever got to court. [_Independent_ newspaper archive](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/date-rape-acquittal-stokes-row-a-person-who-is-drunk-and-because-she-is-drunk-consents-to-an-act-which-she-would-not-when-sober-still-consents-1511857.html). > [@](#): > > Yesterday’s verdict was welcomed by supporters of the accused, Austen Donnellan, but dismissed by women’s groups as a ‘backlash’ against women. Siwan Hayward, founder of the No Means No campaign, said: ‘Women don’t lie about rape.’ > > … > > During the seven-day trial, the court heard how Mr Donnellan, a history student, fearing expulsion by a disciplinary committee of King’s College, called in the police to investigate. In an attempt to settle the matter internally, the college attempted to cut a deal with Mr Donnellan, whereby if he pleaded guilty to a lesser charge and left, the original complaint would be withdrawn. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2010, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-consensual-sex-due-to-alcohol-consumption/552497/23 "2010-09-03T19:48:00Z")
I remember it. It shouldn’t have been prosecuted, and he was acquited (going on memory here). The system isn’t perfect, but I’ll stand by my comment to **Skateboarder Bo**. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2010, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-consensual-sex-due-to-alcohol-consumption/552497/24 "2010-09-03T19:51:25Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > My opinion is that if you make a bad decision because you, in a sound state of mind, decided to impair your own judgment - tough shit. So if a woman drinks until she passes out, you believe it should be legal for any and everyone who wants to to copulate with her unconscious body? ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2010, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-consensual-sex-due-to-alcohol-consumption/552497/25 "2010-09-03T20:01:41Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No. Nether of these things is true. Actually they are both true > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > So barely conscious, but incohorent means you have a greenlight to do anything you want? Did you read the OP? The line was drawn between too drunk to consent but still coherent and communicating. Many women, and men, do things in this state of mind that they regret later. If someone in this state is not able to legally consent to sex then the possibility of charges being pressed will depend solely on how the woman “feels” about the encounter afterwards. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2010, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-consensual-sex-due-to-alcohol-consumption/552497/26 "2010-09-03T20:15:02Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > No. Nether of these things is true. > > Actually they are both true Cite? > [@](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > So barely conscious, but incohorent means you have a greenlight to do anything you want? > > Did you read the OP? The line was drawn between too drunk to consent but still coherent and communicating. Many women, and men, do things in this state of mind that they regret later. If someone in this state is not able to legally consent to sex then the possibility of charges being pressed will depend solely on how the woman “feels” about the encounter afterwards. I wasn’t asking about the OP scenario, I was asking about your own assertion that anything short of unconsciouness should be fair game. The possibility of charges being pressed depend on the evidence. She can make an accusation, but that in itself, absent any evidence of force or witnesses or any evidence of incapacity will not result in charges. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-consensual-sex-due-to-alcohol-consumption/552497/27 "2010-09-03T20:26:52Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Cite? You want a cite for THAT? > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I wasn’t asking about the OP scenario, I was asking about your own assertion that anything short of unconsciouness should be fair game. > The possibility of charges being pressed depend on the evidence. She can make an accusation, but that in itself, absent any evidence of force or witnesses or any evidence of incapacity will not result in charges. Barely concious and incoherent is functionally passed out. I doubt anyone in that state would have much of a memory of the act occuring and almost certainly could not give consent. Of course that is rape. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-consensual-sex-due-to-alcohol-consumption/552497/28 "2010-09-03T20:41:41Z")
> [@villa](#): > > I remember it. It shouldn’t have been prosecuted, and he was acquited (going on memory here). > > The system isn’t perfect, but I’ll stand by my comment to **Skateboarder Bo**. That’s twice you’ve called him that… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2010, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-consensual-sex-due-to-alcohol-consumption/552497/29 "2010-09-03T20:43:42Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > [@CandidGamera](#): > > > > My opinion is that if you make a bad decision because you, in a sound state of mind, decided to impair your own judgment - tough shit. > > So if a woman drinks until she passes out, you believe it should be legal for any and everyone who wants to to copulate with her unconscious body? No, I don’t believe he said anything of the sort - only that if she voluntarily gets drunk enough that her judgment is impaired, but _not_ to unconsciousness, this should not be held to invalidate her consent. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-consensual-sex-due-to-alcohol-consumption/552497/30 "2010-09-03T20:45:44Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > > [@villa](#): > > > > I remember it. It shouldn’t have been prosecuted, and he was acquited (going on memory here). > > > > The system isn’t perfect, but I’ll stand by my comment to **Skateboarder Bo**. > > That’s twice you’ve called him that… 😉 Wow. And it took reading his name again three times to see where I went wrong. Apologies, **Bo** ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2010, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-consensual-sex-due-to-alcohol-consumption/552497/31 "2010-09-03T22:56:27Z")
You can be prosecuted for actions done while drunk. The law clearly thinks you are responsible for your own actions, even when drunk. If you can be prosecuted for a crime, you can consent to sex. (Obviously my opinion on how it should be, not a statement of law). ---
**Author:** ![jordanr2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/838e76/32.png) [@jordanr2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jordanr2)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-consensual-sex-due-to-alcohol-consumption/552497/32 "2010-09-04T00:43:52Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > My opinion is that if you make a bad decision because you, in a sound state of mind, decided to impair your own judgment - tough shit. > > If Bill Gates gets hammered and signs away his money - too bad, unless someone A.) slipped something in his drink so he could not anticipate his level of intoxication or B.) waited till he was unconscious and forged his signature to make him THINK he consented. > > But in case A, he hadn’t decided to impair his judgment, and in case B, he didn’t make the decision to hand over the money. So my first sentence sums it up succinctly. Ordinarily I don’t like hypotheticals, but this seems to demand one. Girl goes out with nothing more in mind than having a good time and getting sloshed. Girl happens to meet a guy and sleeps with him - in her drunken haze she doesn’t ask his HIV status, and she ends up HIV-positive. In a situation like this, who’s accountable? ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-consensual-sex-due-to-alcohol-consumption/552497/33 "2010-09-04T01:19:12Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Someone is drunk beyond the point where they can legally consent to sex, but still coherent and communicating. This is the zone that I’ll hereby call “drunk.” I think that’s the part of your question that spoils it. If someone is still coherent, they can make sense of what is happening to them, what they’re doing and can determine whether or not they want to do something. I’d put the “too drunk to consent” point at the level where you are no longer able to think coherently. Noel Prosequi, I summon you. Give us some info on the law. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-consensual-sex-due-to-alcohol-consumption/552497/34 "2010-09-04T01:29:09Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The issue is the law is attempting to define someone’s intentions by defining hard rules - this never works, and never will. There are just too many factor and situations and the law should stay out of this one, it’s a lose lose situation for everyone. > > Again this is different then the case that someone is passed out - but that too can be OK, depending on the relationship. > > For the most part the state should stay out of people’s sex lives. Well, some rules have to be hard. Crap, I’m a situationist & I’m telling a religious nut this. But I sympathize with your position. The law gets in a quagmire here. Oddly, your second paragraph is…not actually technically wrong. If one has a relationship where one or both partners have permission to fuck the other’s unconscious form, then OK. But I don’t know about agreeing to a state generally out of people’s sex lives. If their sex lives rely on coercion, misrepresentation, or reckless promiscuity–if people are getting hurt–then let the state in I say. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-consensual-sex-due-to-alcohol-consumption/552497/35 "2010-09-04T02:16:18Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Yes, this raises the question of what constitutes “incapacitation,” but that’s what juries are for. [Surely you’re wrong](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Void_for_vagueness): that’s what laws are for. When you can’t know whether your action is illegal until you meet the 12 folks sitting in judgment, you’re no longer subject to the rule of law. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-consensual-sex-due-to-alcohol-consumption/552497/36 "2010-09-04T03:15:39Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > But I don’t know about agreeing to a state generally out of people’s sex lives. If their sex lives rely on coercion, misrepresentation, or reckless promiscuity–if people are getting hurt–then let the state in I say. Many times, unfortunately, relationships are based on those factors. It is the individuals path of self discovery that will help them chose the correct partner based on past error. Getting the state involved basically places blame when both people are really learning how to really connect, and inhibits them for that self discovery path. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-consensual-sex-due-to-alcohol-consumption/552497/37 "2010-09-04T03:55:41Z")
> [@jordanr2](#): > > Ordinarily I don’t like hypotheticals, but this seems to demand one. Girl goes out with nothing more in mind than having a good time and getting sloshed. Girl happens to meet a guy and sleeps with him - in her drunken haze she doesn’t ask his HIV status, and she ends up HIV-positive. In a situation like this, who’s accountable? The guy. “I am not going to knowingly infect you with a life-threatening illness” seems like a pretty safe implied condition of her consent - you’d have to be a complete idiot to not see why it would affect most people’s decision, and it’s sufficiently rare that the onus is on you to bring it up. Just like you couldn’t sell someone a faulty car then claim “Hey, he didn’t _ask_ if it was going to explode fifty metres down the road!” ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-consensual-sex-due-to-alcohol-consumption/552497/38 "2010-09-04T04:58:34Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > > [@jordanr2](#): > > > > Ordinarily I don’t like hypotheticals, but this seems to demand one. Girl goes out with nothing more in mind than having a good time and getting sloshed. Girl happens to meet a guy and sleeps with him - in her drunken haze she doesn’t ask his HIV status, and she ends up HIV-positive. In a situation like this, who’s accountable? > > The guy. “I am not going to knowingly infect you with a life-threatening illness” seems like a pretty safe implied condition of her consent - you’d have to be a complete idiot to not see why it would affect most people’s decision, and it’s sufficiently rare that the onus is on you to bring it up. Just like you couldn’t sell someone a faulty car then claim “Hey, he didn’t _ask_ if it was going to explode fifty metres down the road!” And, more importantly, incapacitation and intoxication have jack shit to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-consensual-sex-due-to-alcohol-consumption/552497/39 "2010-09-04T05:36:35Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > So if a woman drinks until she passes out, you believe it should be legal for any and everyone who wants to to copulate with her unconscious body? > > No, I don’t believe he said anything of the sort - only that if she voluntarily gets drunk enough that her judgment is impaired, but _not_ to unconsciousness, this should not be held to invalidate her consent. So anything short of total unconsciousness is fair game to copulate with, no matter how incoherent or lacking in lucidity the “consent” is. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-consensual-sex-due-to-alcohol-consumption/552497/40 "2010-09-04T05:40:31Z")
> [@jordanr2](#): > > > [@CandidGamera](#): > > > > My opinion is that if you make a bad decision because you, in a sound state of mind, decided to impair your own judgment - tough shit. > > > > If Bill Gates gets hammered and signs away his money - too bad, unless someone A.) slipped something in his drink so he could not anticipate his level of intoxication or B.) waited till he was unconscious and forged his signature to make him THINK he consented. > > > > But in case A, he hadn’t decided to impair his judgment, and in case B, he didn’t make the decision to hand over the money. So my first sentence sums it up succinctly. > > Ordinarily I don’t like hypotheticals, but this seems to demand one. Girl goes out with nothing more in mind than having a good time and getting sloshed. Girl happens to meet a guy and sleeps with him - in her drunken haze she doesn’t ask his HIV status, and she ends up HIV-positive. In a situation like this, who’s accountable? The slimeball that took advantage of her when she was drunk. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-consensual-sex-due-to-alcohol-consumption/552497.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-consensual-sex-due-to-alcohol-consumption/552497.md?page=3)