I’m always torn on this issue. I live right outside of Danbury. I used to work for the phone company there, and I think I spoke more Spanish than English some days. (Both for customers of the Phone Company, and at Dunkin Donuts ordering a sandwich.) I am torn because in the U.S., with umpteen different ethnicities living and working here, it’s hard to say which languages we should learn. I hate the fact that most Americans only speak one language. But at the same time, when you can get by most of your life without even hearing another language, how can you blame people for forgetting HS Spanish, French, or whatever.
One thing in this thread irked me, though. In multiple posts, it’s talked about how people immigrating here should learn to speak English before they come. This is such a classist attitude. This belief is held (usually) by people who assume that said Immigrants have a few months to go to school, or grab some books on tape, and learn the language. Forgive me if I’m wrong, but a whole boatload of immigrants emigrate in the first place because they can’t afford to eat in their countries. Or maybe they are persecuted due to religious or political beliefs. It’s not like most of these people are accountants or computer programmers, living in middle income homes saying “Gee honey, we should leave here and move to the US and become cotton pickers and fast food workers. First, though, we need to get a really good command of the language so as not to piss off the people who need their whopper.” They are mostly poor people living in economies that make 1929 America look like a step up. (How do I know? I’m the weird white guy to all of the Spanish speaking people behind the counter at most deli’s and restaurants that likes to practice his Spanish and learn about their lives.) After reading all of the posts, I think TeaElle said it the most succinctly
That said, I also know TellMeI’mNotCrazy’s pain. If I want my Bacon Egg and Cheese, and I want it now, I’m gonna be frustrated as hell if the reason I can’t get it is the language barrier. But as TeaElle said, I should be focusing my frustration on the manager, not the employee.
I don’t know about the population in general but I have read about American baseball players in Japan. That’s one area where learning the language is encouraged.
I would never argue that immigrating is an easy thing. And when I encounter people who seem to be making a legitimate effort to learn and use English and are having a rough go of it, I try to cut them some slack. But more and more it seems that the first thing immigrants do upon entering the country is give the finger to the American way of life (including English). The existence of a defiant anti-assimilationist lobby does not help.
The persecution thing is a whole different ballgame. Those people enter as refugees, which is a relatively small fraction of the total immigrant population. Refugees are entitled to a variety of benefits that regular immigrants can’t get. The question of refugee status is very political (Cubans are refugees but Haitians aren’t, etc.) and like I said, is a whole 'nother debate.
I will mention that my wife entered as a refugee when she was 4, and she has two younger brothers who were born in the States. Her parents spoke their native language exclusively at home, and as a result, the kids all entered kindergarten not knowing a lick of English. Fortunately, they went to a rural school that didn’t have the money for bilingual education, so they were fluent in English within a couple of years.
It’s a very interesting situation. I think Japanese essentially appreciate it if you try to speak their language, but sometimes there is an undercurrent of, “Well, you may have learned some Japanese, but don’t go thinking you can ever fit in with us culturally.”
A late answer to Hyperelastic, yes, I am implying that. The New Yorker had an article about a year ago about the citrus industry in Florida, and how Mexicans wanting a job will come over, live in barracks and be forced to work for x years to pay off their debt - indentured servitude, basically. This is not an isolated occurence. I was not trying to imply, however, that (illegal) immigrants were the only ones who get exploited; however, because of their status, they don’t have access to the resources that could help them. In addition, it is usually not so simple as “going back” - many of these people are supporting whole families back home.
I have worked in several hotels, restaurants and bars, and the majority of them employed illegal immigrants (usually from Mexico - again, where I grew up, outside of Chicago, had a large Mexican population, mostly from Michoacan and Jalisco.) IMO, it’s not possible that the manager/owner/boss didn’t know they were illegal. In one hotel kitchen, a young prep cook cut his hand open, but absolutely refused to go to hospital, saying that if he left his shift, he would be fired.
It’s sad, but most of them don’t have to know English, and the only time it is problematic is when something goes wrong (ie, there is no one who speaks English there). But outside of those situations, millions of non-English speakers work day in and out without notice. In other words, our economic system is one that does not always value the ability to speak English - if it can pay someone less because they don’t speak English and thus have limited opportunities, or because they are illegals and don’t have the access to government resources, they most often will. I applaud any business owner that cares about their employees more than this; but I have seen (and worked in) a lot of places that just don’t. Hence, I would say to those that are attacking the immigrants (rhetorically) that the blame also needs to be put on the government and the businesses that promote such actions. And, as a side note, in the late nineties, at least, 95% of illegal immigrants were illegal becaues they overstayed work visas, not because they ran over the border.
I suppose it would be nice if we all had time to learn a second language, as Brutus opines, but such an idea is based on way too many assumptions - that there is access to basic education (let along ESL); that there is sufficient money to support such an endeavor; that there is access to child care, transportation, etc…
And, learning a second language can be a real bitch, as I have seen in my students’ struggles in Spanish.
What I don’t understand is when people move here and live here for years without learning any English.
I certainly can understand that it’s tough at first. I can certainly expect that it might take a few years. Perhaps at first they’re too busy working to make ends meet or perhaps they’re on a waiting list for an English class that they can afford. Whatever. And I certainly do not expect mastery of the language. Just some broken English, just to get by. That’s okay with me.
So when I hear about people who’ve lived here for 10 - 20 years and can’t communicate in English, not even on the most basic level, I have to wonder. Part of me figures, “Hey, I don’t care, as long as they don’t expect me to communcate with them. It’s no skin off my nose.” But the other part of me wonders how or why people would not manage to learn for so long. It would seem almost natural to absorb some of the language—just a little bit—especially after so many years.
I have respect for people who learn more than one language and I am aware that it’s not an easy thing. (I’ve tinkered with learning Spanish for years now.) So I’d never dream of being harsh or nasty to someone who had a minimal understanding but was trying. But to not even try, or worse, to expect everyone else to learn their language (as, apparently, some folks do)? Not reasonable. Especially when you’ve got people coming from a kajillion different countries speaking a kajillion different languages. It’s just not practical to not at least try to learn a little bit of the language of the country where you are living.
To yosemite,
IMO, I suppose you have a couple of possible explanations - either they refuse to learn English for political reasons; don’t have access to education; or, (and this is the one I’m leaning towards) they don’t need to.
I’m just speculating based on my own experience here, but a language gap creates segregation - at my high school, the kids who principally spoke Spanish kept to themselves, and the English speakers kept to themselves. And this is not an unreasonable reaction - hell, when I was first in Spain I would talk to anyone who spoke English just to ‘take a break’ from the more challenging communication in Spanish. The same thing continues in the work environment - the Spanish speakers talk to each other, the people that work the front talk to each other, and the only time those lines blend is when there’s someone who’s (somewhat) bilingual.
So, when I think of the people I know that don’t speak English (including a large portion of the Greek side of my family - no relation to the donut shop owners ), I come to the conclusion that they didn’t learn (a lot of) English because they could get by without it. If you live in a town with a large enough ‘ethnic’ population, you can shop in stores that principally speak your langugage; you can live in neighborhoods with the same people.
I think it’s also a generational issue - IMO it would be quite difficult to grow up here and not learn English, thanks to the school system. And of course it depends on where you live - in my family, the great-grandparents only speak Greek, the grandparents speak Greek and English, my father, English and a bit of Greek, and me, English and Greek swear words and foods. (And Spanish and some Italian and French, but I didn’t learn those at home.)
Oh, I totally get what you’re saying, and I can definitely understand how things can happen that way. And hell, it’s none of my business, really. If they can get through their whole life not learning the language and not suffering because of it and not being harmed because of it then it’s certainly no skin off my nose.
I guess the thing that puzzles me (or bothers me) is when people who don’t learn English face problems when dealing with emergency services or something like that. Granted, I’m sure that there are many 911 operators, cops, paramedics, etc., who speak other languages, but surely there may come a time when there’s an emergency and there won’t be someone available who is bilingual. That could be a problem for someone who doesn’t know English. I guess it’s their problem, but I confess, it puzzles me why they’d put themselves in that position.
And definitely, if someone comes here and expects others to learn their language? Not reasonable. Sure, it’s nice to be bilingual (I’m trying to brush up on my Spanish so I’m all for being bilingual), but I am not doing it for anyone else—I’m doing it for myself. I’m not trying to learn so that I can more easily communicate with people who won’t learn English. I mean, I don’t have a problem communicating with anyone, but my motivation for learning is for personal enrichment, not out of some feeling of obligation towards other people who don’t speak English.
I guess I’m trying to say is that I would think that more people would want to learn English for themselves (for the reasons I outlined above) and I am puzzled why they don’t want to. But, oh well.
I don’t think communicating with emergency services is at the top of anyone’s list of concerns, because it just wouldn’t occur to them as being as important with being able to communicate while shopping or otherwise taking care of regular day-to-day business. My grandmother would be a classic case of that. Having lived here now more than half her life (she’s 94 now, and arrived here in 1951), her English communication skills never really progressed beyond the bare minimum that she needed to get by, because a) she was a housewife who felt no special need to communicate extensively with “outsiders,” and b) my grandfather, father or uncle would always be available to translate if necessary. (Btw, those three began taking English classes as soon as they arrived because they HAD to in order to get better jobs, and that was their primary goal. Making a decent living - enough to pay the bills and save some $ on the side - was the highest priority, not enrichment of their personal lives.)
You also have to realize that for a lot of the immigrant poor that come here, “emergency services” and other such things we take for granted were scarce to non-existent where they came from. You had a heart attack, you died. Your house caught fire, it would likely burn to the ground. That was life.
For people who can arrive here and live in a community of compatriots, the circle of outsiders begins beyond their community, and their daily communication skills don’t face a challenge. Only once it becomes a regular problem does it provoke a change.
It may be that they really could communicate (at least a little bit) in English if they had the confidence to try. I’m an EFL teacher, and with some students one of the biggest obstacles we face isn’t poor speaking or listening skills but low confidence. They don’t believe they can really learn to speak English well, and they’re embarassed that anything they say is going to be so full of mistakes that no one will be able to understand them. So they hesitate to say anything at all – even in their own English class that they’re spending good money on in an attempt to improve their fluency!
It can also be really embarassing for adults to have to express themselves in what’s hardly better than baby-talk. I know that from firsthand experience! When you want to say, “Excuse me, but what’s the difference between the package with the red sticker and the package with the yellow sticker?” but the best you can manage is “Excuse me? This…red. This…yellow. What?” then you’ve got a lot of pride-swallowing to do before you open your mouth. I’m sure it’s psychologically easier for a lot of people to avoid speaking English at all rather than try to get their meaning across with the few words and phrases they have picked up through immersion.
If they don’t want to learn, it’s not hurting me at all. In fact, I’m benefitting indirectly from so many people here speaking Spanish, for instance. I can find many Spanish language books here (which I’m using to improve my vocabulary) and I’ve just subscribed to the Spanish-language Reader’s Digest! It’s great!
You’re right, and I should have made myself clearer before: I think learning in order to get a job is “doing it for yourself” which is the reason why I think everyone should learn (or not want to learn, as the case may be).
For instance, if I live in an area that has a certain percentage of people speaking Chinese, but I am not interested in speaking Chinese, and I am not financially or personally inconvenienced by not speaking Chinese, I ain’t going to learn Chinese. I guess that the Chinese-speaking people living in the (hypothetical town) probably are not inconvenienced that much either (or else they’ll learn) but if they do feel inconvenienced, I think they should learn a new language, not me. (And that’s usually how it works I’m guessing, except in instances as described by the OP? :))
I can see that certain shops or business establishments want employees who speak a certain language, because they have customers who speak that language and they want their business. So, if they learn that language, it is for their own personal gain: increased business.
If, however, someone is encouraged or pressured to learn another language when it’s not benefitting them and is nothing that they are particularly interested in doing, I don’t think they should feel obligated to do it. For instance, years ago my dad’s work (Post Office) was offering evening Spanish classes, “to better serve our Spanish-speaking customers.” Well, having employees who understood Spanish was probably good for the Post Office, but it wasn’t something my dad wanted to spend time learning. He wanted to spend his evenings at home, doing other things. So he didn’t take the classes. I didn’t think he made a wrong or bad choice. It’s his free time, after all! I mean, it would have been one thing if his employer was going to offer him a raise for this extra skill he he’d developed on his own time, but as far as I know they weren’t going to do that. (Or if they were, he didn’t think the extra money was worth the hassle.)
Now, had it been me being offered free Spanish classes, I would have jumped on it, since I want to learn anyway. If they had offered some of language that I wasn’t interested in, I probably wouldn’t have taken the classes. I like my free time at night too.
From what I hear, some people (perhaps nobody here) would have been critical of my dad (and me) for choosing not to learn this other language, but I don’t see why.
I guess it’s back to the “personal enrichment” thing. I’ll be happy to learn something because I want to (for whatever reason—financial, personal education, etc.) but I don’t think it’s reasonable to be asked to learn something because “so-and-so wants to talk to you and he doesn’t want to learn how to speak your language.” If it’s no skin off my nose if I don’t speak to so-and-so, then I’m not going to learn his language unless I want to.
Oh, TELL ME ABOUT IT. My reading of Spanish is much better than my grammar and I hesitate to communicate in Spanish, because I know that I’m going to suck. So I definitely sympathize with that. But if the chips were down, I could get my point across, and I’d expect no more from anyone else.
I am sure that there are shitheads and assholes who would try to embarrass someone with faltering English, and I think that is awful. It’s hard learning a new language and anyone who is trying deserves respect and patience for putting in the effort.
Just had an experience that obliquely ties into this:
Got a phone call from a man with an extremely heavy Indian accent, who started out by saying he was calling from the Discover bank who had issued my Discover card.
Right away this raises my suspicions: If this were genuinely a call from my bank, wouldn’t he know and use the correct name? The issuer of my card most certainly is not called ‘The Discover Bank.’
While I’m pondering this, and making non-commital noises, the man was slowly and ponderously reading a script to me, with many mistakes and ‘backing up’ to get words right. Between my inattention, his accent, and the mistakes, I’m not entirely sure what he was getting at, but it seemed to be that the Discover card membership database had been hacked, and that they were mailing copies of their customer’s TRW credit reports to all their card holders, and please look it over for suspicious activity.
Fine, this might be a genuine case… Of course, he was still droning on, about recommending we get reports from all three credit companies (oh? Is that what this is selling?) and then something about having my account tagged for special alert if suspicious activity was note (oh? maybe one of those credit watch services) and then it went on to some more mumbling about credit lines and Identity theft…
And I’d had entirely too much of this. I started telling the man I’d look at whatever was mailed to me but I had no intention of listening to any more of this. And he kept breaking in with “there are only three more paragraphs” and “I only need 35 more seconds of your time” and so forth until I finally just said goodbye and hung up.
Now, I won’t swear this wasn’t a legitimate warning of a security breach, though I don’t think so. It may have been a scammer, but I suspect not. My guess is that it was an attept to sign me up for some ‘credit/id theft protection service’…
but whatever it was, he had zero chance of succeeding at selling it to me. Who in their right mind hires phones salesmen who aren’t fluent in the language and, at a minimum, easily understood??
