# non fat diets **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 3, 2001, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-fat-diets/64244 "2001-05-03T17:57:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2001, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-fat-diets/64244/21 "2001-05-05T20:48:14Z")
barbitu8 wrote: > [@](#): > > OK, Tracer, here’s the first paragraph in that link: > > > [@](#): > > > > Among elderly Dutch men, a diet high in trans fatty acids is associated with a 10-year increased risk of coronary heart disease (CHD), according to a report in The Lancet for March 10. > > BTW, anyone can register to Medscape. Just go to the homepage ([www.medscape.com](http://www.medscape.com)) and follow the instructions. It’s free. Ah. Now I can see the article. It seems the test involved tracking 667 old men for 10 years, seeing how much _trans_ fatty acid they consumed, and comparing it with which ones got Coronary Heart Disease (CHD) and which ones didn’t. The conclusion was that there was a 1.28-to-1 correlation between high _trans_ fatty acid intake and CHD. A 1.28-to-1 correlation qualifies as a “weak association” by most statistical methods. A correlation must be at least 2-to-1 to qualify as a “strong association.” A weak association isn’t necessarily statistically insignificant, but it does mean that it might be too soon to draw conclusions from it if the sample size is too small. I would like to know how the 1.28-to-1 correlation between _trans_ fat and CHD established in this study compares to the correlation between high **saturated** fat intake and CHD. It is pretty much accepted mainstream biochemical wisdom nowadays that _trans_ fatty acids are nearly as bad for you as saturated fatty acids (the FDA is looking at a proposal to list the _trans_ fat content as part of the saturated fat on food labels). From my best educated guess, this study doesn’t look like it makes _trans_ fat out to be any worse than saturated fat. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2001, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-fat-diets/64244/22 "2001-05-05T21:45:07Z")
That isn’t the only study. Yes, mainstream wisdom states that saturated fats and trans fats are both and equally bad. That was the state of our knowledge a short time ago. Our knowledge as to what causes arteriosclerosis is in a state of flux and expanding. A while back mainstream said it was LDL. Then iron came into the picture. Now homocysteine raises its ugly head. Coming into play is not LDL as such, but oxidized LDL. I don’t have all the cites. I run with a pharmocologist (Ph.D. in pharmacology) who is privy to a lot of private sites I cannot access without fees, etc. He stated what I said in my initial post. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2001, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-fat-diets/64244/23 "2001-05-07T13:37:54Z")
tracer; you’re Not saying that birds would live longer if they didn’t eat fries, are you? ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2001, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-fat-diets/64244/24 "2001-05-07T14:56:55Z")
**vanilla** wrote: > [@](#): > > tracer; you’re Not saying that birds would live longer if they didn’t eat fries, are you? Well, there **are** those studies on rats that show that a restricted calorie diet can double the rats’ life spans. But what I was really saying was, **dude** was kinda-sorta implying that any diet different from the diet of our prehistoric hunter-gatherer ancestors must be automatically bad for us. I tried to point out, somewhat indirectly, that modern human lifespans are considerably longer than the average hunter-gatherer lifespan. It wasn’t that ancient man never got atherosclerosis, it was that ancient man didn’t live long enough, on average, for atherosclerosis to be a problem. ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2001, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-fat-diets/64244/25 "2001-05-07T15:19:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jadis \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by lee \* > > **Adults can live on low fat diets, and indeed if they have their gall ballders remove, must.** > > I have to interject here…this is completely untrue. > > HTH 🙂 \*\* I am not surprised to learn that my former doctor was incorrect in this. She seems to buy into a lot of myths relating to diet. I complained of stomach aches once and she put me on a no fat, no spice, no dairy, low-sodium, low-calorie, no fruit, no fruit juice, no soda, no caffiene diet. I asked how long I would have to be on this diet and she told me the rest of my life. She did not run tests, she just said that the diet would probably make the pain go away and would improve my health. “If it tastes good to you, don’t eat it. It will make you produce too much stomach acid.” Thank you for the information. ---
**Author:** ![Jadis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@Jadis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jadis)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2001, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-fat-diets/64244/26 "2001-05-07T17:19:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lee \* > **I am not surprised to learn that my former doctor was incorrect in this.** I’m relieved to hear you refer to her as your **former** doctor. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![dude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f19dbf/32.png) [@dude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dude)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2001, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-fat-diets/64244/27 "2001-05-09T12:14:50Z")
According the the latest research you need to eat vegetables,fruit and a little fish and do lots of physical and mental exercise. The people doing this research did not give an evolutionary type explanation for this BUT i reckon 14 million years of evolution must have some effect. BUT - who can be bothered AND perhaps a short happy life is better ? It is true that rats who eat a lot less live longer and so would humans BUT it would be a near starvation diet. The answer may just be to eat healthy (most of the time ! ) and do some exercise. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2001, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-fat-diets/64244/28 "2001-05-10T01:14:30Z")
Well, _trans_ fats are in the news again. Last night, one of my local TV stations (KICU channel 36 in the south San Francisco Bay Area) did a little news segment on the evils of modern french fries. They claimed that _trans_ fats, such as those found in the hydrogenated oils used by McDonald’s and Burger King’s french-fry machines, are a billion zillion jillion times worse for you than saturated fats. To back this up, they referred to something called the “nurse study” which followed the health and diets of something like 80,000 nurses, and which concluded that a 2% or 3% increase in _trans_ fat intake corresponded to a 93% increase in their chances for heart disease. Naturally, as most modern news programs are wont to do, they reported this conclusion as completely established scientific fact and the nurse study as completely free of controversy. (If this were indeed the case, then why is the FDA only considering changing its food labelling requirements to list _trans_ fats as part of a food’s saturated fat content, instead of as some kind of separate, deadly concoction?) ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2001, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-fat-diets/64244/29 "2001-05-10T14:00:23Z")
so…which is better, butter or margerine?? ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2001, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-fat-diets/64244/30 "2001-05-10T14:59:08Z")
Well, according to one of the FDA’s webpages at [http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/qatrans.html:](http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/qatrans.html:) \*\*Q: Is it better to eat butter than margarine because of the trans fat? A:\*\* No. Although some margarines contain more _trans_ fat than butter, the total of _trans_ and saturated fat (the LDL-C raising fats) is always less than the total for butter. The total for butter is much higher because of all the saturated fat that it contains. The chart below shows you the comparisons of the content of these types of fats in butter and in some margarines. It is usually better to eat the softer or liquid margarines that contain lower amounts of saturated and _trans_ fats. Also, nonstick cooking spray may be substituted for other fats when “greasing” the pan. The following information is from the most recently available 1995 report from the U.S. Department of Agriculture and FDA data. Since that time, the margarine industry has reformulated many margarine products to reduce the total fat, saturated fat and _trans_ fat content. **FAT TYPE PER SERVING(\*)** ```auto **Product Total Fat Saturated Fat Trans Fat Saturated and Trans Fats** Butter 10.8 7.2 0.3 7.5 Margarine, stick 11.4 2.3 2.4 4.7 (82% fat) Margarine, stick 9.5 1.6 1.8 3.4 (68% fat) Margarine, tub 11.2 1.9 1.1 3.0 (80% fat) Margarine, tub 5.6 1.1 0.6 1.7 (40% fat) ``` (\*)Butter values from FDA Table of Trans Values, dated 1/30/95. Other values from USDA Composition Data, 1995. ---
**Author:** ![shell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/46a35a/32.png) [@shell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shell)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2001, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-fat-diets/64244/31 "2001-05-10T20:12:08Z")
I found this article to be very informative [http://www.faseb.org/ascn/ajcn7799.htm](http://www.faseb.org/ascn/ajcn7799.htm) in regard to trans fatty acids and fatty acids in general. It would appear that the whole debate over the negative effects of trans fatty acids in inconclusive. Most articles on the subject state a primary need to _increase activity levels_ and a seconday need to limit the amount of saturated fat in the diet. IMOSHO, it’s the general decline in hard physical labor over time that has caused so much trouble. However, I did find these articles which attempt to correlate the ingestion of trans fatty acids with breast cancer [http://www.eurekalert.org/releases/fatty-breastcanc.html](http://www.eurekalert.org/releases/fatty-breastcanc.html) [http://www.ifst.org/hottop9.htm](http://www.ifst.org/hottop9.htm) Care to comment **tracer**? ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2001, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-fat-diets/64244/32 "2001-05-10T22:31:09Z")
shell wrote: > [@](#): > > However, I did find these articles which attempt to correlate the ingestion of trans fatty acids with breast cancer [http://www.eurekalert.org/releases/fatty-breastcanc.html](http://www.eurekalert.org/releases/fatty-breastcanc.html) > [http://www.ifst.org/hottop9.htm](http://www.ifst.org/hottop9.htm) > Care to comment **tracer**? Don’t mind if I do! The Kohlmeier study mentioned in both of those articles found that women who had consumed greater quantities of _trans_ fatty acids had an increased incidence of breast cancer. But generally speaking, people who consume greater quantities of _trans_ fats (primarily found in snack foods) also tend to consume greater total calories and greater amounts of saturated fat. In fact, the Nurses’ Health Study is described in the second article as showing a positive correlation between breast cancer and the total consumption of _all_ fats, and between breast cancer and the consumption of saturated fats. This is consistent with the notion that _trans_ fat intake is not particularly more associated with breast cancer than the intake of saturated fat, and that the presence of _trans_ fats in the bodies of breast cancer patients in the Kolhmeier study may merely be an “indicator” that these patients had eaten more total fat and/or more saturated fat. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-fat-diets/64244/33 "2001-05-11T01:24:29Z")
The 2d link given by Shell notes that TFA increases lipoprotein (a) concentration, another risk factor for CHD. BTW, The Nurses’Health Study, like the Framington study is ongoing. ---
**Author:** ![shell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/46a35a/32.png) [@shell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shell)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-fat-diets/64244/34 "2001-05-11T13:10:38Z")
Your knowledge and level-headedness is much appreciated. It was always my understanding that it was an overabundance of saturated fat in the diet _in general_ that contributed to health problems. Thanks for reiterating that particular fact. Did you post to any of the Atkins Diet threads? If so, I plan an giving them another another look. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-fat-diets/64244/35 "2001-05-11T14:57:12Z")
**barbitu8** wrote: > [@](#): > > The 2d link given by Shell notes that TFA increases lipoprotein (a) concentration, another risk factor for CHD. Not quite. It said: “TFA can cause an increase in plasma lipoprotein (a) concentration (especially in individuals with a high starting level) which is **considered by some workers in the field** to be an independent risk factor for CHD.” [emphasis mine] It also, unfortunately, does not say whether saturated fats can cause an increase in lipoprotein (a), and if so, whether saturated fats increase lipoprotein (a) to the same degree as an identical amount of _trans_ fats do. **shell** , yes, I posted to the Atkins Diet threads on occasion. I don’t remember if I said anything useful, though. My parents are on the Zone Diet, which is like a milder version of the Atkins Diet, so those threads caught my attention. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-fat-diets/64244/36 "2001-05-11T14:59:41Z")
tracer, thanks. You are quite the researcher. So tub margarine is the safest? ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-fat-diets/64244/37 "2001-05-11T20:01:04Z")
Lowfat tub margarine has the lowest saturated and _trans_ fat total of the 5 foods in the table above, so yeah, the FDA’s position as of 1997 is that it’s the “safest” as far as your cardiovascular health goes. Of course, tomorrow we may see some completely irrefutable study we’d never heard of before, which proves, beyond all doubt, that _trans_ fat causes everything from Parkinson’s disease to hangnails. But for now, the best evidence we have seems to indicate that _trans_ fat is about as bad for you as saturated fat is. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-fat-diets/64244/38 "2001-05-11T23:27:53Z")
I guess we all can agree that we should avoid both trans fats and saturated fats, as the safest way to go. There are a lot of butter substitutes other than margarine. I use and like hummous, and I like it on flat bread. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2001, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-fat-diets/64244/39 "2001-05-12T00:07:55Z")
Isn’t hummous what you’re supposed to grow plants in? ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2001, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-fat-diets/64244/40 "2001-05-12T02:53:40Z")
I assume that was an attempt to be “hummorous.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-fat-diets/64244.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-fat-diets/64244.md?page=3)