# (Non-Mormon) Christians converting to Mormonism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 14, 2011, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310 "2011-02-14T16:03:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/21 "2011-02-15T03:30:09Z")
> [@chorpler](#): > > I actually found that reading the original 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon was easier than reading the updated version – it is laid out more like a traditional book, without the versification. And the language seems much more 1820’s-ish to me – more authentic, if you will, like something written or translated by a person living back then. Speaking of versification, the _Book of Mormon_ itself is actually published by more than one church and there are different divisions into chapters and verses among those churches. You can go to [this site](http://www.restoration.org/), scroll down to “Scholarly Places” and then click on the drop down menu for Scriptures. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/22 "2011-02-15T03:54:57Z")
> [@Dogzilla](#): > > Mormon missionaries are trained in a facility called the [Missionary Training Center](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missionary_Training_Center), affectionately referred to as “The MTC.” Basically, (I was not a missionary and did not go through the MTC) missionaries are trained to address how that information is conveyed and how to address any pushback or concerns that might arise. Essentially, the Book of Mormon is the story about how the Hebrews allegedly made boats, came to the Americas and waited for Jesus to visit and enlighten them. (really long story short) All the missionaries really do is encourage potential converts to read the Book of Mormon and then pray to find out if it is true. If the potential convert receives spiritual confirmation that this book is true, then the baptism is scheduled. First, the missionaries have to teach about divine revelation and how each and every person can tap into that spiritual knowledge. Is any reason given for the long pants and short-sleeve shirts? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/23 "2011-02-15T07:01:24Z")
Some kind of prohibition against proselytizing in the nude, one would think. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/24 "2011-02-15T07:20:40Z")
Rats, because based on some of the missionaries I’ve seen walking around, that would be a very effective short term tactic. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/25 "2011-02-15T13:39:38Z")
> [@Dogzilla](#): > > I don’t really remember being presented with straightforward “So the Hebrews came to the Americas and became the Lamanites…” kind of story. It was more "Here’s what else Jesus did and if you don’t believe us, just pray to god until you _feel like_ it’s true. If you do not “feel the spirit” then you either didn’t pray with sincere intent or your heart has hardened and closed off to the feelings of the spirit. Something is wrong with _you_ if you don’t see it our way. I have been proselytized by several pairs of Mormon missionaries. I have always liked them. I have never been impressed by their intelligence and knowledge of their religion. They never knew about the Book of Abraham. This is a presumed translation by Joseph Smith of an ancient Egyptian manuscript. The manuscript was discovered in 1967. It has been translated by reputable Egyptian scholars. The real translation has nothing to do with Joseph Smith’s presumed translation. As far as I am concerned, this proves beyond the shadow of a reasonable doubt that Joseph Smith was a religious charlatan. When I tell the Mormon missionaries this, and when I tell them that there is no independent evidence that anything in the Book of Mormon happened, and much evidence that none of it happened, they smile politely, but without obvious comprehension. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/26 "2011-02-15T13:44:49Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I am in agreement with **FriarTed** here. Even if I accepted the Book of Mormon as a parable, like Jonah, the notions about God as exalted man and so on don’t make sense to me. > > I am actually reading thru the Book of Mormon as part of a resolution to familiarize myself with the sacred writings of other faiths. I have read the Bible all the way thru, several times. I then read the Tao-de-Ching, the Tripitaka, a translation of the Koran that the Saudi embassy was kind enough to send me, and am now plowing my way thru the Book of Mormon. Rather heavy going, but I have not seen any reference to the origins of God. I believe that comes from one or other of their official books. Not sure if I will try to get thru that. > > Regards, > Shodan If Judiasm and Christianity cease to be living religions, the Bible will continue to be read as great literature, much as the writings of Homer and the Greek tragedians are read. If Mormonism ceases to be a living religion, The Book of Mormon will only be of value to scholarly specialists. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/27 "2011-02-15T13:53:11Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > So, if I’m understanding this correctly, the Hebrews made boats and came to the Americas, which up until then had no human inhabitants. Is that correct? > > Then Jesus came to enlighten them. So what went wrong? When the Europeans got here, they didn’t find a bunch of Christians. There must be something in Mormon doctrine that attempts to explain this. According to the Book of Mormon the Nephites were the Christians. They were annihilated at the Battle of Cumorah. ---
**Author:** ![Bartman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@Bartman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bartman)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/28 "2011-02-15T14:03:31Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Is any reason given for the long pants and short-sleeve shirts? Missionaries are supposed to be dressed up, so as to create a favorable impression. This differs from place to place, but a white dress shirt, dress pants, and tie seems to be the minimum. I went on my mission to Brazil. And we were encouraged to wear long sleeve shirts and two piece suit, when practical. But the only ones who did were the folks in the office with the mission president. Everyone else went with the minimum required, the thinnest short sleeved white dress shirt with the thinnest dress pants we could find. In general I found the suit coat “impractical” almost universally. I imagine it is the same everywhere else. When it is hot, long sleeved shirts suck. So you end up with everyone trying to get away with the minimally acceptable, which creates that odd but uniform fashion. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/29 "2011-02-15T14:04:35Z")
> [@](#): > > If Judiasm and Christianity cease to be living religions, the Bible will continue to be read as great literature, much as the writings of Homer and the Greek tragedians are read. If Mormonism ceases to be a living religion, The Book of Mormon will only be of value to scholarly specialists. 19th century unbelievers were pretty harsh about it. Mark Twain called it “chloroform in print”. Sir Richard Burton, that indefatigable traveler and religion-sampler, was kinder. He worked his way through it, and gave a useful outline in his book **City of the Saints** , but his judgment essentially amounts to “it’s no more absurd than any other sacred text” (although he didn’t put it that way, of course). He did go on record as calling church architecture “monstrosities”, but that’s a separate issue. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/30 "2011-02-15T14:21:47Z")
When I was nineteen years old I engaged in an extensive investigation of the Mormon faith with the help of two Mormon Missionaries. I had owned a copy of The Book of Mormon for about five years. Although I had not read it entirely, it did impress me as a book that sounded Biblical. I investigated the Mormon religion with the attitude that Mormonism was unique among the religions, because it lended itself to a rational investigation. The other religions based their authority on miracles that happened so long ago that they were impossible to prove or disprove. Joseph Smith made a number of assertions that could be independently verified. He either had the golden plaits or he did not. They either told an authentic history of pre - Colombian history or they did not. I must have been frustrating to the Mormon missionaries, because I did not follow their schedule of classes, but was in control of my investigation. I would ask questions. They would answer them as best as they could, and give me material to read. I wanted to become a Mormon. My attitude was that if Mormonism is true, God exists, and there is life after death. If Mormonism is not true, God’s existence, and that life is uncertain. The Mormon way of life appealed to me. I did not drink alcohol or smoke. I wanted to marry a virgin. Finally, I heard about the Book of Abraham. This is a presumed translation by Joseph Smith of an ancient Egyptian manuscript. That manuscript had recently been re discovered. I thought this would settle everything. If Joseph Smith’s translation was accurate, this could now be proven. If it was not accurate, that could also be proven. When I asked for information about The Book of Abraham, the missionaries gave me several articles that had recently been written by Hugh Nibley. He was a Mormon scholar at Brigham Young University, who was fluent in many languages, including ancient Egyptian. I expected him to be pleased at the discovery of the manuscript for the Book of Abraham. I could tell that he was troubled. Eventually, I concluded that the manuscript Joseph Smith claimed to translate was actually a manuscript of the Egyptian Book of the Dead. Recently I have read that my conclusion has been confirmed by reputable scholars. Hugh Nibley is a fascinating individual. He had to be intelligent and learned enough to know that the Mormon faith is built on very shaky foundations, but he continued to at least pretend to believe in it. Reading him was like reading a rebuttal by a brilliant mathematician of the multiplications tables. It was not until many years later that I read The Book of Mormon in its entirety. ---
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/31 "2011-02-15T14:23:37Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Is any reason given for the long pants and short-sleeve shirts? 😃 All mormons are expected to adhere to certain modesty standards. Missionaries especially are required to pretty much conform to the standard mormon missionary “uniform” which is long dress pants, a white shirt, and a tie. Mixing the long pants with the short sleeves is probably about the only thing they can do to dress for warm weather. Not allowed to wear shorts or t-shirts or anything like that. Female missionaries wear skirts or dresses (in non flashy colors, nothing tight, sheer, or well-fitting) and hems should always be below the knees. Even on their days off, missionaries are still expected to meet certain standards of modesty in dress. BYU students also enjoy a rather strict dress code. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/32 "2011-02-15T14:28:31Z")
1. The Smithsonian Institution has never used the Book of Mormon in any way as a scientific guide. Smithsonian archeologists see no direct connection between the archeology of the New World and the subject matter of the book. 2. The physical type of the American Indian is basically Mongoloid, being most closely related to that of the peoples of eastern, central, and northeastern Asia. Archeological evidence indicates that the ancestors of the present Indians came into the New World–probably over a land bridge known to have existed in the Bering Strait region during the last Ice Age–in a continuing series of small migrations beginning from about 25,000 to 30,000 years ago. 3. Present evidence indicates that the first people to reach this continent from the East were the Norsemen who briefly visited the northeastern part of North America around A.D. 1000 and then settled in Greenland. There is nothing to show that they reached Mexico or Central America. 4. One of the main lines of evidence supporting the scientific finding that contacts with Old World civilizations, if indeed they occurred at all, were of very little significance for the development of American Indian civilizations, is the fact that none of the principal Old World domesticated food plants or animals (except the dog) occurred in the New World in pre-Columbian times. American Indians had no wheat, barley, oats, millet, rice, cattle, pigs, chickens, horses, donkeys, camels before 1492. (Camels and horses were in the Americas, along with the bison, mammoth, and mastodon, but all these animals became extinct around 10,000 B.C. at the time when the early big game hunters spread across the Americas.) SIL-76 1988 [http://www.godandscience.org/cults/smithsonian.html](http://www.godandscience.org/cults/smithsonian.html) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/33 "2011-02-15T14:43:35Z")
> [@Dogzilla](#): > > 😃 > All mormons are expected to adhere to certain modesty standards. Missionaries especially are required to pretty much conform to the standard mormon missionary “uniform” which is long dress pants, a white shirt, and a tie. > > Mixing the long pants with the short sleeves is probably about the only thing they can do to dress for warm weather. Not allowed to wear shorts or t-shirts or anything like that. Shorts are much more practical if you’re going to go everywhere **by bicycle**. . . Is any reason given for **that?** Why are Mormon missionaries always on bicycles? ---
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/34 "2011-02-15T14:59:29Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Shorts are much more practical if you’re going to go everywhere **by bicycle**. . . Is any reason given for **that?** Why are Mormon missionaries always on bicycles? Funds are limited and in urban areas where practical, some pair sets of missionaries will be issued bikes and others will be issued a mission-owned car. If the mishies get a car, they are restricted to certain geographical areas and are allotted only so many miles per month. The mission pays for gas and repairs. In general, it’s less expensive to maintain a bicycle for a missionary than a car. ---
**Author:** ![Bartman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@Bartman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bartman)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/35 "2011-02-15T17:17:47Z")
> [@Dogzilla](#): > > Funds are limited and in urban areas where practical, some pair sets of missionaries will be issued bikes and others will be issued a mission-owned car. If the mishies get a car, they are restricted to certain geographical areas and are allotted only so many miles per month. The mission pays for gas and repairs. In general, it’s less expensive to maintain a bicycle for a missionary than a car. Well… we had to buy our bikes. But that was 20 years ago. It may be that bikes are issued now, but I suspect the missionaries still purchase their own. And given the tight budget, even in areas with cars, it is not unusual to ride bikes to save on gas. A lot of areas can have a rural/urban mix. Where we had cars, we usually rode the bikes to anything within 5-10 miles and saved the miles/gas for more distant investigators or bad weather days. ---
**Author:** ![Bartman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@Bartman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bartman)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/36 "2011-02-15T17:29:59Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Shorts are much more practical if you’re going to go everywhere **by bicycle**.\*\* Yes but they aren’t allowed. And I could give two reasons for that: 1- The temple garments (otherwise known as the “special mormon underwear”) goes to the knee. These are to be worn in such a fashion that the temple garment does not show. This is a standard that all members are supposed to adhere to, if they have been to the temple. This eliminates almost all men’s styles of shorts as very few hang below the knee and above the waist at the same time. 2- The missionary [Dress and Grooming Guidelines](http://www.mtc.byu.edu/doc/elders.pdf) (warning PDF) don’t allow shorts. ---
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/37 "2011-02-15T18:16:15Z")
> [@Bartman](#): > > Well… we had to buy our bikes. But that was 20 years ago. It may be that bikes are issued now, but I suspect the missionaries still purchase their own. > > And given the tight budget, even in areas with cars, it is not unusual to ride bikes to save on gas. A lot of areas can have a rural/urban mix. Where we had cars, we usually rode the bikes to anything within 5-10 miles and saved the miles/gas for more distant investigators or bad weather days. Thanks for the correction. I had no idea missionaries were expected to provide their own bikes. Do you buy them in the mission field or do you have to pay to have them shipped from home (and presumably from one mission assignment to the next). Come to think of it, how are missionary moves handled? Does the Church pay for a U-Haul or is the Ward Mission Leader responsible for getting members to help move the mishies? What’s the SD on that, RMs? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/38 "2011-02-15T18:17:00Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > I had owned a copy of The Book of Mormon for about five years. Although I had not read it entirely, it did impress me as a book that sounded Biblical. It’s difficult to define “sounding Biblical” precisely. So far, the BoM sounds like what someone with a deep familiarity with the King James version of the Bible would think is stylistically appropriate. Lots of “it came to pass” and so-and-so “did smite them” and so on. I don’t know why a translation of “Reformed Egyptian” would come out like that rather than something more like nineteenth century American English, but perhaps Moroni intended it that way. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/39 "2011-02-15T20:52:38Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > (Non-Mormon) Christians: Can you see yourself ever converting to Mormonism? Specifically, do you think you could ever accept the “mythology” (for lack of a better word) of the book of Mormon, especially the bits about Native Americans being a former tribe of Israel? If not, would that be a sticking point, or could you comfortably join a Mormon church while not believing in their mythology? Nope. I briefly dated a young woman who was a Mormon and who tried to convert me. I did read the Book of Mormon at the time, though I confess to skimming the boring parts. It is among the least convincing of phony prophecies I have ever read. I could list minor problems all day. (Why does it say that Zedekiah was king in 600 B.C. when he didn’t become king until 597 B.C.? How did Nephi and his family camp by a river on the eastern shore of the Red Sea when no such river exists?) But the major point is just that it’s painfully obvious that all the theology, history, and physical detail matches up exactly with what you’d expect a con-man from upstate NY in the 1820’s to produce if he had only a KJV and perhaps a tiny bit of knowledge from other sources. Other facts, such as that Joseph Smith actually was a professoinal con artist, that he copied some of his revelations word-for-word from other would-be prophets in the same area, and that the church has been constantly chaning both the Book of Mormon and the temple ceremonies and other stuff, are good to know, but not necessary to dismiss the whole thing as a fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/40 "2011-02-15T22:03:44Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > He either had the golden plaits or he did not. I thought that was Rapunzel with the golden plaits. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310.md?page=3)