# (Non-Mormon) Christians converting to Mormonism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 14, 2011, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310 "2011-02-14T16:03:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bartman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@Bartman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bartman)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/41 "2011-02-16T00:27:37Z")
> [@Dogzilla](#): > > Thanks for the correction. I had no idea missionaries were expected to provide their own bikes. Do you buy them in the mission field or do you have to pay to have them shipped from home (and presumably from one mission assignment to the next). Come to think of it, how are missionary moves handled? Does the Church pay for a U-Haul or is the Ward Mission Leader responsible for getting members to help move the mishies? What’s the SD on that, RMs? Bikes - We bought ours in the field. In my case I was temporarily assigned to the Alabama Birmingham mission while I was awaiting for my Brazilian alien resident visa to be approved. The mission home always had a number of used bikes for missionaries of lesser means to purchase. So in my case I bought from the mission home and sold it back to them a few months later, when my visa was finally issued. As you might imagine after a couple of years of daily use a lot of the bikes were a bit worse for wear. I became a pretty darn good bike mechanic pretty quick. Transfers - These weren’t too hard and were always driven by practicality. Short distance transfers were usually worked out between the affected companionships. Just throw everything in the trunk and go. Where we were close to the mission home, the office staff usually had a van and would spend all day shuttling missionaries around. Longer distance transfers were done using public transportation. I did most of my transfers by bus. A U-Haul isn’t really needed. Missionaries keep to two suitcases, a carry-on, and where applicable the bike. With a couple of other Elders to help load them on the Greyhound it only took a few moments. ---
**Author:** ![ThisOneGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@ThisOneGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisOneGuy)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/42 "2011-02-16T04:39:35Z")
I was going to link to Preach My Gospel to show the strategies taught, but I see that has already been done. More of an IMHO, but I think the missionaries are mostly taught to convert people who are christian already. Never went on a mission myself (going apostate around age 14 or so), but have helped translate for missionaries into Japanese. The lessons seem to assume that you already know and like this Jesus guy, and here are some more neat stuff he did. From my mormon raised, non-christian perspective, swallowing the who this dude 2000 years ago died for your sins, god loves you so much he will ensure you are punished forever for disobeying him kind of stuff is harder than the native american jew bits. Are miraculous goings on in 1830 impossible, but even more miraculous stuff in 0030 reasonable? Regarding the Book of Abraham, I would be suprised if missionaries didn’t know about it. Its in the scriptures they carry around with them all day. I was well aware of them as a child, always liked to turn to the pictures in a boring sacrament meeting. I totally believe that they would not be aware that the papryus was found and translated in modern times tho. Didn’t hear that myself until quite later. However, I have heard it mentioned twice in church settings, once in a “frequently asked questions” setting, where someone brought it up and asked the bishop, and another time in an institute (college level seminary mentioned above) class. Both times they talked about the Nibley report above. If you can let me know where I could find that, I would really appreciate it (even offline, willing to go to the library, expect BYU would have it). ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/43 "2011-02-16T07:26:51Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > No, I cannot see myself accepting that God the Father was an exalted man who achieved Godhood thru obedient faith in his Father God. The Israelite descent of Native Americans & Jesus’ visitation to them is the least of my difficulties with LDS teaching. The 180 degree re-defining of Deity is my major difficulty. But weren’t you just telling me in another thread about how Christianity is supplemental to Judaism, that Jews should get used to evengelizing and attempts at conversion, and the usurping of their beliefs when convenient, all with the goal of getting everyone, not only Jews, “to see the light”? Why the pushback when the shoe is on the other foot I wonder? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/44 "2011-02-16T09:25:36Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > I wanted to become a Mormon. My attitude was that if Mormonism is true, God exists, and there is life after death. If Mormonism is not true, God’s existence, and that life is uncertain. Why? What makes Mormonism the determining factor of God’s existence. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/45 "2011-02-16T10:17:27Z")
About the bikes: A friend of mine, who just finished his two years about a year ago, said that he and the other teams rode around in vehicles provided by the church. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/46 "2011-02-16T13:14:19Z")
Some bikes are donated to the mission by those (members, other missionaries, philanthropic folk) who are leaving the area. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/47 "2011-02-16T13:41:57Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > But weren’t you just telling me in another thread about how Christianity is supplemental to Judaism, that Jews should get used to evengelizing and attempts at conversion, and the usurping of their beliefs when convenient, all with the goal of getting everyone, not only Jews, “to see the light”? > > Why the pushback when the shoe is on the other foot I wonder? What pushback are you talking about? **FriarTed** isn’t objecting to Mormon proselytizing, he is saying he doesn’t accept their doctrine. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/48 "2011-02-16T14:24:22Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > But weren’t you just telling me in another thread about how Christianity is supplemental to Judaism, that Jews should get used to evengelizing and attempts at conversion, and the usurping of their beliefs when convenient, all with the goal of getting everyone, not only Jews, “to see the light”? > > Why the pushback when the shoe is on the other foot I wonder? I welcome evangelists from other faiths when they come to my door. Believe me, it ends up with them looking at their watches “Gee, we really gotta go!” My biggest objection to how many Mormons evangelize however is that ofttimes their doctrine of “God as Exalted Man, us as potential Gods” is totally ignored until after the person joins the LDS Church. There are other LDS doctrines they are very covert about. All I wish is that they be honest about where they really differ from ordinary Christianity & bring it on! That’s one thing I like about Jehovah’s Witnesses, they are very eager to tell me where their faith & mine differ. ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/49 "2011-02-16T14:40:00Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > The 180 degree re-defining of Deity is my major difficulty. And yet the Jews are supposed to have their socks knocked off by hopelessly lame arguments that their entire religion (which, for some strange reason, they consider to be complete \*) is nothing but a “prequel” to your flawlessly reasoned-out faith. Amen! * * * - To new folks who adhere to Judaism: In case it wasn’t clear, this was not meant to be sarcastic toward your beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/50 "2011-02-16T15:58:53Z")
> [@Trans Fat Og](#): > > And yet the Jews are supposed to have their socks knocked off by hopelessly lame arguments that their entire religion (which, for some strange reason, they consider to be complete \*) is nothing but a “prequel” to your flawlessly reasoned-out faith. > > Amen! > > * * * > > - To new folks who adhere to Judaism: In case it wasn’t clear, this was not meant to be sarcastic toward your beliefs. Them’s a lot of fancy words you’re putting into my mouth. You know, I’d like to actually see a revival of YHWH-trusting, Torah-observing, Talmud-studying faith in the Jewish community instead of this downward slide into assimilation, secularization, & New Agey pseudo-Kabbalism. If I see one more “Judaism doesn’t really require belief in God” post in the SDMB, I think I’ll scream. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/51 "2011-02-16T16:24:59Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Them’s a lot of fancy words you’re putting into my mouth. > > You know, I’d like to actually see a revival of YHWH-trusting, Torah-observing, Talmud-studying faith in the Jewish community instead of this downward slide into assimilation, secularization, & New Agey pseudo-Kabbalism. If I see one more “Judaism doesn’t really require belief in God” post in the SDMB, I think I’ll scream. No, those are the words you posted on my thread in the last week or so. Including that you want the Christians to adopt more of the Jewish faith as a prequel and actual part of their own faith, in order to usurp and subsume the Jews into Christianity. At least that was how I understood it. And that is why it seems bizarre that you object when Mormons want to extend Christianity and subsume/convert the non-Mormon Christians. These are the sort of untenable positions people twist themselves into when they insists that their faith is right, and everyone else’s faith is wrong. Also, what qualifies you to judge the variety of faiths that Jews have when Christians are so disunanimous in interpreting their own faith that all it takes to create a new church is for someone to rent a schoolroom or a storefront and handpaint a sign that there will be services on Sunday? ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/52 "2011-02-16T16:26:27Z")
To clarify my last post: When I said that they rode around in vehicles provided by the church, I meant cars. ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/53 "2011-02-16T16:41:00Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > At least that was how I understood it. Um. Maybe you have a legitimate beef with **FriarTed** , but you’re utterly failing to point out a contradiction here. There no is no conflict between “I won’t stop proselytizing my faith” and “I won’t accept _that_ faith”. If you can point out where he said he was offended by proselytizing Mormons, I’d like to see it, but it looks to me as if you’re merely dragging an unrelated personal beef into this thread. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/54 "2011-02-16T17:01:39Z")
> [@Paranoid\_Randroid](#): > > Um. Maybe you have a legitimate beef with **FriarTed** , but you’re utterly failing to point out a contradiction here. There no is no conflict between “I won’t stop proselytizing my faith” and “I won’t accept _that_ faith”. If you can point out where he said he was offended by proselytizing Mormons, I’d like to see it, but it looks to me as if you’re merely dragging an unrelated personal beef into this thread. In poist 18. FriarTed said: > [@](#): > > No, I cannot see myself accepting that God the Father was an exalted man who achieved Godhood thru obedient faith in his Father God. The Israelite descent of Native Americans & Jesus’ visitation to them is the least of my difficulties with LDS teaching. **The 180 degree re-defining of Deity is my major difficulty**. Bolding mine. In the other thread, he took the position, as I understood it, that Jews should accept precisely that from Christian evangelizers. I found it striking when he said that in the other thread, and I find it striking that now he does not seem to want to see that when the shoe is on the other foot, what is good for the goose is no longer good for the gander, to mix metaphors. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/55 "2011-02-16T19:52:05Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > I found it striking when he said that in the other thread, and I find it striking that now he does not seem to want to see that when the shoe is on the other foot, what is good for the goose is no longer good for the gander, to mix metaphors. **FriarTed** apparently finds the evidence convincing for Jesus (of the gospels) as a revelation of the Jewish God, but not the evidence for the Mormon deity as a revelation of the Christian God. (And I do to, of course.) While you may disagree with the conclusions we take home from the evidence, you’ve no reason to dismiss it as hypocricy. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/56 "2011-02-16T20:00:09Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > **FriarTed** apparently finds the evidence convincing for Jesus (of the gospels) as a revelation of the Jewish God, but not the evidence for the Mormon deity as a revelation of the Christian God. (And I do to, of course.) While you may disagree with the conclusions we take home from the evidence, you’ve no reason to dismiss it as hypocricy. OK - for the 3rd time 🙂 The hypocrisy _is not_ in the choice of his or your or anyone’s religion or lack of same. The hypocrisy _is_ saying that it is proper to subsume someone else’s religion into one’s own for the purpose of converting them, but then to object when another 3rd religion does the same to yours. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/57 "2011-02-16T20:28:14Z")
**FriarTed** didn’t say that anything the Mormons teach is improper; he said he isn’t convinced by their arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/58 "2011-02-16T20:44:04Z")
I’m sure FriarTed is entirely comfortable with Mormons evangelizing and trying to convert him. He just doesn’t take the hook. I don’t see the hypocrisy either. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/59 "2011-02-16T22:11:04Z")
For the record- I believe Jesus to be the Messiah, Son of God, Incarnation of YHWH, Yadda yadda yadda I believe that God’s intention is for all humanity to come to Him thru Jesus. I believe the traditional Christian view of the Trinity & the Incarnation to be correct. I believe it is proper & right for people of all religions to seek to convert others to theirs through civil discourse & peaceful means to “win hearts and minds”. I believe Jesus commanded His followers to do so. As a Trinitarian Incarnational Christian, I believe that Joseph Smith’s doctrine of God as Exalted Man & us as potential Gods is erroneous, AND that the traditional Jewish doctrine of God as Monotheistic with no room for distinct persons/aspects is too limited. LDS are free to view my doctrine of God as limited and Jews are free to view my doctrine of God as erroneous. And we are free to try to influence each other peacefully & civilly. Is that clear enough? ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/60 "2011-02-17T00:03:35Z")
Yes but Mormon doctrine states that God the father and Jesus Christ himself appeared to Joseph Smith to affirm the truth of the Book of Mormon. How can you argue a direct visitation from God himself? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310.md?page=4)