# (Non-Mormon) Christians converting to Mormonism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 14, 2011, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310 "2011-02-14T16:03:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/101 "2011-02-18T22:09:58Z")
Can one of you tell me about the Mormon’s beliefs regarding genealogy and its relation to salvation? I’ve heard it mentioned that it, along with baptism and some other stuff, is required to get to the super best heaven (as opposed to just ordinary heaven, I guess). Are orphans fucked? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/102 "2011-02-18T22:25:51Z")
Dogzilla, If it is a test and you are sent here without pre-knowledge, then why would God have LDS missionaries to short circuit the system and tell you the whole plan. I thought you were supposed to be judged by how well you figured it out for yourself. Also, does LDS place significance on wealth? Are people who gain wealth special souls? Crane ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/103 "2011-02-19T01:30:18Z")
Would this **prove** that the Book of Mormon is a fraud? And Mormons on here, please tell me if I am wrong about these details. According to the Book of Mormon (I have a copy of the book here beside me) the Hebrews who wrote in “reformed Egyptian” came to America around 600 B.C. They were visited by Jesus in America around 33 A.D., became Christians, but were finally wiped out by the Lamanites in mega-battles around 420 A.D. The Prophet Moroni, in 421 A.D., buried the text of the Book of Mormon, inscribed on golden plates, on the Hill Cumorah near present-day Manchester, New York. They remained in the earth from 421 A.D. until they were found in the 1820s by Joseph Smith, who translated the golden plates from “reformed Egyptian” into English with the help of two “translating stones”, Urim and Thummim. It is clear that a large section of the B of M, namely Chapters 12 to 24 of the Second Book of Nephi, are more or less identical to Chapters 2 to 14 of the Book of Isaiah in the Bible. Now, this by itslef does not prove anything. The first 39 chapters of Isaiah are believed to have been written before 600 B.C., so the Hebrews who allegedly came to America could have had a copy with them and transcribed these chapters. And, when Joseph Smith allegedly translated the golden plates into English in the 1820s, for some reason he translated the sections of Isaiah exectly the same way as they appear in the King James Version of the Bible translated in England in the early 1600s. But wait a second! Hebrew and Christian biblical scholars tell us that the Book of Isaiah used in the Christian Old Testament is not identical to what is found in the Hebrew Scriptures. Because small errors of translation and transcription got into the Christian version during the Christian era and ended up in the King James Bible when it was published in the 17th century. So now, answer me this: If the golden plates containing among other things Chapters 2 to 14 of the Book of Isaiah were lying in the ground in New York State between 421 A.D. and the 1820s, how is it that\*\* ERRORS MADE ACROSS THE ATLANTIC IN EUROPE AND THE BRITISH ISLES ENDED UP ON THOSE GOLDEN PLATES WHILE THEY WERE BURIED IN THE GROUND FOR OVER 1400 YEARS?\*\* Sorry Joe Smith, but we got yer ass! ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/104 "2011-02-19T07:05:43Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > Can one of you tell me about the Mormon’s beliefs regarding genealogy and its relation to salvation? I’ve heard it mentioned that it, along with baptism and some other stuff, is required to get to the super best heaven (as opposed to just ordinary heaven, I guess). Are orphans fucked? Well, it used to be a belief that women could only enter the Celestial Kingdom via the worthiness of their husbands. This used to be mentioned during the Great Endowment Ceremony, but was removed during one of the recent re-writings. Whether parenthood was originally tied in there as well, I don’t know, but I’m not an expert. In the early days, of course, orphans had recourse to the [Law of Adoption](http://20truths.info/mormon/doctrine.html). > [@Valteron](#): > > So now, answer me this: If the golden plates containing among other things Chapters 2 to 14 of the Book of Isaiah were lying in the ground in New York State between 421 A.D. and the 1820s, how is it that ERRORS MADE ACROSS THE ATLANTIC IN EUROPE AND THE BRITISH ISLES ENDED UP ON THOSE GOLDEN PLATES WHILE THEY WERE BURIED IN THE GROUND FOR OVER 1400 YEARS? You obviously have never encountered a truly hardcore defender of Mormonism, or you’d know that they’d be happy to provide you with lengthy explanations of why the errors in the King James Version aren’t actually errors at all. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/105 "2011-02-19T12:00:32Z")
Interesting, non Mormon Christians use logic, reason, science, history, archeology, literally analysis of the text of the book of Mormon to prove it false. When the exact same tools are used against other Christian denominations suddenly those very same tools fail. Mormon apologetics are just as good as yours. The fact is **God the Father and Jesus Christ himself spoke to Joseph Smith!!** That fact alone settles the matter, you can’t argue with God!! In addition all faithful Mormons sincerely pray to God, asking him if the BoM is true and they receive a sign from God, a great burning feeling in their heart, a tiny miracle attesting to the truth of the LDS church, again you can’t argue with God or miracles. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/106 "2011-02-19T12:49:23Z")
Icerigger, Archaeology indicates that the exodus is just a story. Ice and lake cores prove that there never was a worldwide flood. That’s not picking on LDS. Crane ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/107 "2011-02-19T13:48:33Z")
I’m not gonna sift through not\_alice’s last reply. I’ll just say this- I am against blocking anyone’s access, chasing them or harrassing them once they’ve made it clear they are not interested. Of course, she sets the bar much lower than I do on the definition of harrassment as she seems to consider just being approached on the subject as such. I also support gay civil unions with full rights equal to marriage, including the receiving of gov’t benefits. I just don’t support the redefining of marriage without cultural consensus. I certainly opposed the execution, imprisonment or legal harrassment of homosexuals. But I will not pledge allegiance to the Rainbow Flag to make her happy. And btw, I hope that not\_alice realizes that the horrid example of very intrusive evangelizing by the CoS has nothing to do with Christianity at all. While there is controversy over the Christian status of the Latter-day Saints or Jehovah’s Witnesses, there is no such controversy over the Church of Scientology. It has no Christian content whatsoever, its use of the stylized Cross symbol notwithstanding. And if any Christian group use such tactics, and I am sure some probably have, I denounce those also. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/108 "2011-02-19T15:28:14Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > You obviously have never encountered a truly hardcore defender of Mormonism, or you’d know that they’d be happy to provide you with lengthy explanations of why the errors in the King James Version aren’t actually errors at all. The question is not whether they are errors or not. It is the self-evident contradiction. It is like a letter that says “I would have sent you money but I have already sealed the envelope.” Here it is in a nutshell: [ul] 600 B.C. some Hebrews allegedly come to America from the Middle East. Between 600 B.C. and 421 A.D. they create records on golden tablets, that include an exact replication of Chapters 2 to 14 of Isaiah out of the Old Testament. The Book of Mormon admits clearly that these passages out of the Second Book of Nephi are taken straight out of Isaiah. They do not try to deny it. But these chapters must have been transcribed from a copy of the Book of Isaiah that these Hebrews brought over with them in 600 B.C., right? In 421 A.D., the Christian civilization in North America is wiped out and the prophet Moroni buries the golden plates, including the 12 Chapters from the Book of Isaiah, in the ground in NY State, where they will remain until Joseph Smith finds them in the 1820s. Meanwhile, in the Old World, from the beginning of the Christian era to the publication of the English Translation of the Book of Mormon by Smith in 1930, small differences between the original Hebrew text of Isaiah and the one used by Christians creep in, becuase of multiple translations and transcriptions. Any Hebrew scholar can compare the KJB and the original Hebrew and show you where these differences are. But when Joseph Smith translates the golden plates with his two translating rocks, what is produced is exactly the text of Chapters 2 to 14 of Isaiah, as they appear in the King James Bible that Smith would have had access to. And the text contains all the same changes that occurred while the golden plates were buried in the ground for 1400 years. [/ul] Do you get my point? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/109 "2011-02-19T16:44:01Z")
**"Mormonism: Nothing so hilarious could possibly be true. Or all bad."** Your comments, the Book of Abraham and the history of Joseph Smith combine to make LDS a very difficult conversion. The attraction would have to be the Mormon Community rather than it’s history or Doctrine. Crane ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/110 "2011-02-19T16:54:22Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > **“Mormonism: Nothing so hilarious could possibly be true. Or all bad.”** > > Your comments, the Book of Abraham and the history of Joseph Smith combine to make LDS a very difficult conversion. The attraction would have to be the Mormon Community rather than it’s history or Doctrine. > > Crane There was [a documentary](http://www.southparkstudios.com/episodes/103933)about this phenomenon. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/111 "2011-02-19T20:05:48Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Do you get my point? I think it’s you who failed to get my point. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/112 "2011-02-19T20:31:13Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It’s difficult to define “sounding Biblical” precisely. So far, the BoM sounds like what someone with a deep familiarity with the King James version of the Bible would think is stylistically appropriate. Lots of “it came to pass” and so-and-so “did smite them” and so on. I don’t know why a translation of “Reformed Egyptian” would come out like that rather than something more like nineteenth century American English, but perhaps Moroni intended it that way. > > Regards, > Shodan When I skimmed The Book of Mormon I was a teenager, and more impressionable. When I read it as an adult who had already read the King James Bible in its entirety, It was obvious to me that Joseph Smith was steeped in the language of the King James Bible, and that he was mimicking that language. I would like to read an analysis of The Book Of Mormon by a linguist. I am confident that the linguist would detect aspects of nineteenth century American English embedded among the attempts at Elizabethan English. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/113 "2011-02-19T20:40:24Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Why? What makes Mormonism the determining factor of God’s existence. It is obvious to me that Joseph Smith was a religious charlatan, and that Mormonism is consequently an elaborate hoax. It may still be the case that God exists. However, Mormonism lends itself to a rational evaluation in ways that the other religions do not. One cannot prove or disprove that Jesus worked his miraculous cures and rose from the dead. One can prove that the Book of Mormon is not an authentic history of pre Colombian America, and that Joseph Smith’s attempt to translate an ancient Egyptian manuscript was fraudulent. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/114 "2011-02-19T21:48:04Z")
If a Mormon missionary returns from his mission time _without_ making any converts, is it a bad stigma? ---
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/115 "2011-02-19T21:48:59Z")
He double tithes? ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/116 "2011-02-19T22:39:50Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > If a Mormon missionary returns from his mission time _without_ making any converts, is it a bad stigma? Not really. Some regions are more [del]gullible[/del] prepared to hear the Gospel than others. Getting sent home early due to sin, lack of conviction, or vague “health” (i.e., homesickness) reasons carries a bad stigma. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2011, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/117 "2011-02-20T03:42:32Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > When I skimmed The Book of Mormon I was a teenager, and more impressionable. When I read it as an adult who had already read the King James Bible in its entirety, It was obvious to me that Joseph Smith was steeped in the language of the King James Bible, and that he was mimicking that language. I would like to read an analysis of The Book Of Mormon by a linguist. I am confident that the linguist would detect aspects of nineteenth century American English embedded among the attempts at Elizabethan English. That’s an interesting idea. I feel like I recognize not only other parts of the KJV in the BoM, but even (ISTM) quotes from Shakespeare. I have no idea if the Mormons teach that what Smith alleged to have translated is 100% canonical, or if they recognize the difficulties in translating one language into another. AFAIK there is no other example of anything written in Reformed Egyptian, and I have never heard any explanation of why a group of migrated Jews would write in that language as opposed to some dialect of Hebrew of the period c. 600BC. Maybe that comes later in the BoM - I haven’t finished it yet. It’s rather heavy going. As I understand the process, Joseph Smith would put his head into a hat with the plates and the seers stone, and read off the translated line and it was not written down as final until he agreed that it was exactly correct. I have no idea if Mormons teach that the original nineteenth century text was an exactly correct translation, or if they teach that it was as close as could be expected given the problems of translating one language into another. I don’t even know if they consider it an issue at all. And it is entirely possible that God or the angel Moroni _wanted_ a translation that sounded like the KJV,To make it poetic, or acceptable to the people of the period, or something. I have heard other Christians say that the KJV is the one and only “correct” version of the Bible, although I don’t think it is official doctrine of any major sect that I know of. I can sort of see their point - the KJV is one of the great achievements of world literature, and both a remarkably beautiful and hugely influential work. I hope this doesn’t sound too rambling - I am tired and I have proven my non-Mormon status by having a couple of beers. Nice talking to you. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2011, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/118 "2011-02-20T04:47:14Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > I would like to read an analysis of The Book Of Mormon by a linguist. I am confident that the linguist would detect aspects of nineteenth century American English embedded among the attempts at Elizabethan English. You may enjoy this: Jockers, M. L., D. M. Witten, and C. S. Criddle, 2008. Reassessing authorship of the Book of Mormon using delta and nearest shrunken centroid classification. _Literary and Linguistic Computing_ and this: > **[Linguistics and the Book of Mormon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistics_and_the_Book_of_Mormon)** > > The professed doctrine of most denominations within the Latter Day Saint movement is that the Book of Mormon is a 19th-century translation by Joseph Smith of a record of ancient inhabitants of the American continents, written in a script which the book refers to as "reformed Egyptian". There is no evidence of a language matching this description nor any evidence of Old World linguistic influences in the New World whatsoever. > Some Mormon believers have claimed that the Book of Mormon contains s... > [@](#): > > In a new peer-reviewed study using a traditional authorship method and a new pattern classification technique, several researchers at Stanford University concluded that [Rigdon](http://boards.straightdope.com/wiki/Sidney_Rigdon), [Spalding](http://boards.straightdope.com/wiki/Solomon_Spalding), and [Cowdery](http://boards.straightdope.com/wiki/Oliver_Cowdery) were more likely to have written the book out of a pool of authors that also included [Parley Pratt](http://boards.straightdope.com/wiki/Parley_Pratt), and two statistical control authors [Henry Wadsworth Longfellow](http://boards.straightdope.com/wiki/Henry_Wadsworth_Longfellow) and [Joel Barlow](http://boards.straightdope.com/wiki/Joel_Barlow). Joseph Smith himself was not included in the pool of authors because a set of original works written by Smith alone could not be identified with confidence.[[61]](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/#cite_note-60) However, this study only examined the possibility of one of the five above mentioned authors writing the study, not the possibility that an author or authors outside of the pool of authors mentioned above writing the book.[[62]](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/#cite_note-61) Another study was recently published in the same journal that critiqued the methodology used in the Jockers et al. 2008 study and, using [Joseph Smith](http://boards.straightdope.com/wiki/Joseph_Smith)’s personal writings written in his own handwriting, concluded that stylometric evidence supports neither [Joseph Smith](http://boards.straightdope.com/wiki/Joseph_Smith) nor Spaulding-Rigdon authorship. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2011, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/119 "2011-02-20T12:49:06Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Well, it used to be a belief that women could only enter the Celestial Kingdom via the worthiness of their husbands. This used to be mentioned during the Great Endowment Ceremony, but was removed during one of the recent re-writings. Whether parenthood was originally tied in there as well, I don’t know, but I’m not an expert. In the early days, of course, orphans had recourse to the [Law of Adoption](http://20truths.info/mormon/doctrine.html). > You obviously have never encountered a truly hardcore defender of Mormonism, or you’d know that they’d be happy to provide you with lengthy explanations of why the errors in the King James Version aren’t actually errors at all. AFAIK, one does not have to be related to perform proxy rites for the dead, one probably has to show a compelling connection though. I have also heard that the Millenium will be a time of major Temple proxy work in order to bring the dead back to earthly life to live out their faith, but I don’t know if that is actual doctrine. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2011, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310/120 "2011-02-20T14:33:37Z")
I don’t know if this Mormon issue has been discussed yet, but if an exulted man can eventually become a god, what happens if two people reach that position at the same time? Does one get reassigned to a new universe, or is the situation taken care of _Highlander_ style? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-mormon-christians-converting-to-mormonism/571310.md?page=7)