# Non Muslim wants to visit Mecca **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 4, 2002, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-muslim-wants-to-visit-mecca/130854 "2002-10-04T16:02:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2002, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-muslim-wants-to-visit-mecca/130854/21 "2002-10-04T18:45:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Happy Lendervedder \* > Hmmm, ask a question about Islam, and **Collounsbury** cusses at you, belittles you and makes you feel like a jerk. Cusses at him? Whatever. I have tried to convey in strong language the seriousness of this. He could get himself beaten to death, jailed in a country where going to jail ain’t no fucking joke. This is a serious issue. > [@](#): > > If a person can’t ask an honest question here (no matter how obvious you might think the answer is), what’s the point of GQ? It is an honest question with, if it was followed through, truly fucking serious consequences. If he wants to fully invest time into this, to do it, he has to understand them. Going on a lark - and it may well be possible to pull it off by chance - is dangerous, as I said, he would have to be a drooling idiot to do so (on a lark). I did not mean, I should add, that he was a drooling idiot for asking the question and apologize for that potential reading. My intention is to convey how very serious, potentially life-threatening this could be. Suppose he gets a visa, through 3rd party for example. It is possible. He goes, he annoys some rural Hajjis from a place where one takes the law in one’s own hand (e.g. rural Pakistan) - the questioner could well end up losing his life. Now, if he wants to follow the basic I outlined, then he can pull it off. I also think it is highly disrespectful to do so, a matter of serious fucking disrespect that many people would take very seriously if discovered. In short, none of this is something to be done on a lark. If pointing out these risks in the strongest terms is belittling than I plead guilty and whatever comes comes, but I don’t apologize for pointing out this is not a trivial matter. > [@](#): > > On another note, **ShibbOleth** : It was my understanding that women were just as required to perform the haj as men, if it’s possible for them (i.e. not pregnant, sick, or poor.) This isn’t so? 😕 Isn’t a woman’s participation just as important as a man’s, since much of it traces a woman’s (Hagar’s) historic journey with her son? The Hajj is about Mohammed, not Hagar. Yes, all Muslims regardless, are supposed to undertake the Hajj _if they are able to_. Traditional practice, of course is another matter. Happy \*\* [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2002, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-muslim-wants-to-visit-mecca/130854/22 "2002-10-04T18:58:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Collounsbury \* > **I am trying to clue you in on the import of the matter. I frankly could care less, on a personal level.** I think you mean the opposite: that you could _not_ care less. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2002, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-muslim-wants-to-visit-mecca/130854/23 "2002-10-04T18:59:39Z")
Thanks for the answers everyone. **Haj’s** (who’s name has nothing to do with the Hajj :)) answer pretty much hit the nail on the head. Call me whatever you want, but the prospect of infiltrating a radically different culture, visiting one of the most important places in the history of humanity, and being at risk of getting ripped limb from limb in a public square if you get caught, is, well………tantalizing to say the least. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2002, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-muslim-wants-to-visit-mecca/130854/24 "2002-10-04T19:02:12Z")
**DDG** good point, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![poissongrand69](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/848f3c/32.png) [@poissongrand69](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/poissongrand69)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2002, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-muslim-wants-to-visit-mecca/130854/25 "2002-10-04T19:11:41Z")
I would have to agree with World Eater… Its the same as the button that says ‘do not push’… you know you want to push it, though you shouldnt… Things off limits are the most interesting to me at least… ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2002, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-muslim-wants-to-visit-mecca/130854/26 "2002-10-04T20:58:32Z")
I can understand and even to some degree empathise with the curiosity. The “forbidden fruit” if you will. That said, a better way to state this question would be to ask “I understand that Mecca is off-limits to non-Muslims. How is this controlled? Is it illegal or just disrepectful? Do people on a pilgrimage dress or somehow act differently than others? Muslims from many different nations who speak many different languages all perform this religious rite, but how do they all get by if they don’t speak Arabic? Etc.” **Collonsbury** ’s language was stark, but it was to make the point that this would be about the most disrespectful act one could undertake, from the eyes of a Muslim. There isn’t even an easy equivalent to Christianity or other religions. The Saudis in particular are very serious when it comes to meting out justice, so this is a seriously bad idea on many different levels when it moves beyond the hypothetical. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2002, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-muslim-wants-to-visit-mecca/130854/27 "2002-10-04T21:06:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > \*\*…the prospect of infiltrating a radically different culture, visiting one of the most important places in the history of humanity, and being at risk of getting ripped limb from limb in a public square if you get caught, is, well………tantalizing to say the least. \*\* May I suggest you simply travel to Jerusalem, to Temple Mount (look for the Dome of the Rock, you can’t miss it, or you can just go with a tour group), and try to sneak inside the El-Aqsa mosque. Same exciting irreligious effect, but with a cheaper plane ticket and no tedious hassles with special visas. Plus afterwards, you’ll be in Jerusalem, which even with all the “unpleasantness” is still one helluva World Class City. Whereas, _Riyadh…_ [http://www.inisrael.com/tour/jer/vt\_temple\_mount.htm](http://www.inisrael.com/tour/jer/vt_temple_mount.htm) > [@](#): > > Entering the Temple Mount is through a gate called Mughrabi Gate, reached from the Western Wall area. Visitors should remember to be appropriately dressed (i.e. with no bare body parts), and to be prepared to sometimes a long queue at the security checking point. > > Visiting hours are Saturday to Thursday from 7:30am to 11:00am, and from 1:30pm to 2:30pm. The site is closed on Friday. (Notice that these times can be changed as they are based on Muslim prayer times). Remember, now, it’s closed on Fridays. And if you don’t feel like you’re sufficiently at risk of being torn limb from limb, you can always shout something like “Mohammed was a faggot!” That ought to get you some attention. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2002, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-muslim-wants-to-visit-mecca/130854/28 "2002-10-04T21:12:36Z")
A slight nitpick: > [@](#): > > The Hajj is about Mohammed, not Hagar. With all due respect, I beg to differ. The hajj is not about Mohammed, if anything, it’s about remembering the prophets that came _before_ Mohammed (i.e. Abraham, Adam), not Mohammed himself. And the hajj _is_ about remembering Hagar; why else would [all those people](http://muslim-canada.org/safamarwa.htm) be running back and forth? 🙂 But, anyway, my original question/point was that I thought both men and women were equally required to perform the hajj, which you answered, so thanks. ANd if anyone wants some interesting info (and photos) about the Hajj, go [here](http://muslim-canada.org/hajj.htm) or [here](http://www.iica.org/articles/believer.htm). Happy ---
**Author:** ![panamajack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/47e85d/32.png) [@panamajack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panamajack)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2002, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-muslim-wants-to-visit-mecca/130854/29 "2002-10-04T21:34:34Z")
If you’re really curious about what goes on during Hajj and want something more up-to-date than Richard Burton, you can get [documentary videos](http://www.astrolabepictures.com/video-feature-films-and-documentaries.html) ( there’s a couple from CNN ones and an ABC Nightline special on that page). I haven’t seen them, so I can’t vouch for their quality. I have several friends who went when they were younger and they describe it as an incredible experience. However, I would think the spiritual component would have to be at least partly there to really get anything out of it. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2002, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-muslim-wants-to-visit-mecca/130854/30 "2002-10-04T21:40:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hajario \* > \*\* > If you’re of African ancestory, you could instantly convert to Islam in a “Black Muslim” church in the U.S. (think Malcolm X and Luis Farrakan) but that particular brand of Islam is not recognized by the Saudis. > \*\* Malcolm X did make the pilgrimage to Mecca, though. He then took the name Al-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz (or Malcolm Shabazz, for short), and his surviving family still uses the surname Shabazz. I don’t have his autobiography at hand, but as I remember it was not easy for Malcolm X to get permission to travel to Mecca. An important Muslim scholar had to write him a letter of recommendation – if I recall correctly, at the time (early '60s) this guy was the _only_ one in America qualified to write such a recommendation, and without it no American convert had any hope of making the Hajj at all. I presume he first met with Malcolm and determined for himself that he was _really, really_ serious about Islam. Even then I doubt Malcolm would have managed to get the letter or visa approval if he hadn’t been an important public figure. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2002, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-muslim-wants-to-visit-mecca/130854/31 "2002-10-04T22:01:41Z")
\*\*Muslims from many different nations who speak many different languages all perform this religious rite, but how do they all get by if they don’t speak Arabic? Etc." \*\* Speaking of that, any thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2002, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-muslim-wants-to-visit-mecca/130854/32 "2002-10-04T22:09:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Happy Lendervedder \* > With all due respect, I beg to differ. The hajj is not about Mohammed, if anything, it’s about remembering the prophets that came _before_ Mohammed (i.e. Abraham, Adam), not Mohammed himself. I’ll grant you, yes Ibrahim and Hajar are underlying the practice, although my thinking in replying was in re Mohammed’s practice. As to the issue of forbidden fruit. Well, adults learn what impulses to indulge and what not to indulge. Curiosity about the culture and religion is good. Pig-headed desire to shit on their sensitivities to indulge oneself is another matter. I should hope that you understand the consequences. If not a Saudi jail will teach right good. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Kentzel-Griffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ccd318/32.png) [@John\_Kentzel-Griffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Kentzel-Griffin)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2002, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-muslim-wants-to-visit-mecca/130854/33 "2002-10-04T22:30:37Z")
For a non-mulsim to attempt to travel to Mecca is illegal, disrespectful, and extremely dangerous. This is turning into a debate and an ugly one at that. Enough. This is closed. **DrMatrix** - General Questions Moderator [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-muslim-wants-to-visit-mecca/130854.md?page=1)