# Non-native-English-speaking Dopers, ask your English questions here **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 4, 2006, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-native-english-speaking-dopers-ask-your-english-questions-here/355405 "2006-05-04T16:23:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-native-english-speaking-dopers-ask-your-english-questions-here/355405/41 "2006-05-05T20:08:45Z")
> [@tschild](#): > > Back to the OP, if I may: two actual English-language questions: > > 1. Past form of _to shine_: I learned at school that it was _shined_ when the meaning was to polish but _shone_ when a light was directed at something. Sometimes I read _shined_ in the latter meaning. Legitimate variant or mistake? Never heard the idea that the different meanings have different past tenses. (There is one word like that, “hang”, with “hanged” and “hung” as past tenses, but that’s a relatively recent idea.) I use “shined” for both, though I don’t find myself using the past tense of that verb much at all (which is, of course, why the strong verb version is disappearing.) I imagine that most of the time, a speaker will use either one form or the other, or perhaps both, randomly; I doubt very many speakers make a distinction on meaning, though. A lot of our old strong verbs are becoming gradually regularized. Then again we’ve decided to treat some of our old weak verbs as strong verbs - hence “snuck” instead of “sneaked” (I believe this is exclusively an Americanism - I don’t think it’s caught on in Ol’ Blighty yet.) > [@](#): > > 1. _Anti-Semetism_: Legitimate variant spelling of _Anti-Semitism_ or a remarkably frequent misspelling? Misspelling. People very frequently pronounce it that way (though I don’t) and I imagine many simply forget the proper spelling. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > What’s the American fascination with British-isms? Seems every time an ordianary dumpy guy with an English accent walks into a room full of American women and you can almost here the slap of wet panties hitting the floor. Some women are stupid. > [@Cluricaun](#): > > I think that it’s because you speak the language better than we do. Even the most dumb as a sack of doorknobs person on the street in England sounds educated and refined to our ears, just through pronunciation. Y’all just talk nice. Too many Hugh Grant movies and not enough actually talking to English people. What’s dreadful to my ears is the spread of quite a number of phonetic changes that originated in Cockney (or, as it’s actually-factually called in the literature today, “Saaf Lunnon”) into middle-class London speech. Like the loss of /l/ in syllable codas, so that “milk” is pronounced “miwk”. I’ve heard “th” pronounced /f/ in middle-class London accents as well. _shudder_ ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-native-english-speaking-dopers-ask-your-english-questions-here/355405/42 "2006-05-05T20:22:45Z")
> [@Sal Ammoniac](#): > > \*\*Tikki[/B…The “Bob’s yer uncle” thing someone else will have to explain. I always thought it was the punch line from an old music hall routine, and meant, “Oh, now I got it,” or “The penny drops,” or something like that. … [cough] post 30! [cough] ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-native-english-speaking-dopers-ask-your-english-questions-here/355405/43 "2006-05-05T20:28:08Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > What’s the American fascination with British-isms? Seems every time an ordianary dumpy guy with an English accent walks into a room full of American women and you can almost here the slap of wet panties hitting the floor. My husband - an American by birth and upbringing - lived in England for six months. He reports that an American accent (Midwest/Chicago in his case) has a similar effect on English women. He reports that Scottish women don’t stop at the floor-slapping panties and thank Og he had a car for a quick getaway. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-native-english-speaking-dopers-ask-your-english-questions-here/355405/44 "2006-05-05T20:37:56Z")
> [@glee](#): > > [cough] post 30! [cough] [cough] post 40! [cough] ---
**Author:** ![PoorYorick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PoorYorick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoorYorick)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-native-english-speaking-dopers-ask-your-english-questions-here/355405/45 "2006-05-05T20:40:22Z")
> [@gum](#): > > Why so many different pronunciations of the ‘ou’ sound?: > > Plough > Dough > Would > Four > Enough > Melbourne Oh, well, if you want to talk about pronunciation, that a whole _other_ kettle of fish, what with our Norse, Anglo-Saxon, Norman, and what not ancestry. Who was it, George Bernard Shaw, who said that with English pronuniation, “ghoti” should be pronunced “fish”? gh = “sh” sound, as in “cough” o = “i” sound, as in “women” ti = “sh” sound, as in “nation” ---
**Author:** ![PoorYorick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PoorYorick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoorYorick)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-native-english-speaking-dopers-ask-your-english-questions-here/355405/46 "2006-05-05T20:42:02Z")
Oh, crap :smack: gh = “sh” sound, as in “cough” should, of course, be: gh = “f” sound, as in “cough” ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-native-english-speaking-dopers-ask-your-english-questions-here/355405/47 "2006-05-05T22:25:10Z")
> [@Sal Ammoniac](#): > > “Shined my shoes” will beat “shone my shoes” by about a thousand to one. “Shined a light” and “shone a light” are probably about 50-50, though I get the feeling that “shone” is slowly falling off the map… I don’t recall ever having the rule set forth to me, but my impression as a native speaker was that “shone”, should only be used for intransitive senses. For example, _The sun shone brightly that day._ but _I shined my shoes yesterday_ and _I shined my flashlight at the wheel so they could change the tire_ _The sun shined brightly_ sounds wrong to me, although others may think that “shone” is old fashioned. There are a number of verbs–often German-English cognates–that similarly are regular or irregular depending on whether the sense is transitive or intransitive. Allowing, of course, for the fact that in German the transitive and intransitive forms may be slightly different, and in English the transitive-sense rule may only be applied in one special case. For example, for the verb _to hang_, in English it is irregular in all senses except that of executing someone by hanging. (Not that any English-speaking jurisdiction executes convicts by hanging, IIRC.) German, IIRC has _hangen_, which is irregular and intransitive, but _verhangen_, which is transitive and regular. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-native-english-speaking-dopers-ask-your-english-questions-here/355405/48 "2006-05-05T22:26:36Z")
> [@PoorYorick](#): > > Oh, well, if you want to talk about pronunciation, that a whole _other_ kettle of fish, what with our Norse, Anglo-Saxon, Norman, and what not ancestry. Who was it, George Bernard Shaw, who said that with English pronuniation, “ghoti” should be pronunced “fish”? > > gh = “sh” sound, as in “cough” > o = “i” sound, as in “women” > ti = “sh” sound, as in “nation” Oh please, can we finally lay this one to rest? Perhaps up on the shelf next to “-gry”. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-native-english-speaking-dopers-ask-your-english-questions-here/355405/49 "2006-05-05T22:33:37Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > What’s dreadful to my ears is the spread of quite a number of phonetic changes that originated in Cockney (or, as it’s actually-factually called in the literature today, “Saaf Lunnon”) into middle-class London speech. Like the loss of /l/ in syllable codas, so that “milk” is pronounced “miwk”. I’ve heard “th” pronounced /f/ in middle-class London accents as well. _shudder_ Something which annoys me is the assumption that all ‘mispronunciations’ originate from London accents and are otherwise alien. To use your example, “miwk” isn’t a bad approximation of a truly Suffolk accent, which you’ll mostly hear only from elder generations. > [@gum](#): > > Why so many different pronunciations of the ‘ou’ sound?: > > Plough > Dough > Would > Four > Enough > Melbourne Blame Loughborough 😉 ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-native-english-speaking-dopers-ask-your-english-questions-here/355405/50 "2006-05-05T23:08:35Z")
> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#): > > I > For example, for the verb _to hang_, in English it is irregular in all senses except that of executing someone by hanging. German, IIRC has _hangen_, which is irregular and intransitive, but _verhangen_, which is transitive and regular. I didn’t understand english grammar well enough to understand German. “You are sentenced to be hanged by the neck until dead.” in English, a Germanic language. Are Germans hanged or hung? ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-native-english-speaking-dopers-ask-your-english-questions-here/355405/51 "2006-05-05T23:27:49Z")
> [@tschild](#): > > 1. Past form of _to shine_: I learned at school that it was _shined_ when the meaning was to polish but _shone_ when a light was directed at something. Sometimes I read _shined_ in the latter meaning. Legitimate variant or mistake? I’m going to stick my neck out here and earn the ire of many by saying that shined is always wrong. You may have someone shine your shoes (if you are in america and they are incapable of polishing them) but afterwards they are shiny, or have been polished. They are not shined, nor have they been shone. It’s like betterified - it might seem sensible and logical, but it’s just incorrect. Probably for no good reason other than a local dialect in 3rd century Saxony or Wessex or whatever, but it’s still wrong. Give it another 150 years and it will be correct, but for now please try to avoid shined. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-native-english-speaking-dopers-ask-your-english-questions-here/355405/52 "2006-05-05T23:30:51Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop? > 😉 Excuse me while I change my user name to "Tootsie Pop. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-native-english-speaking-dopers-ask-your-english-questions-here/355405/53 "2006-05-05T23:38:26Z")
> [@slaphead](#): > > Give it another 150 years and it will be correct, but for now please try to avoid shined. That statement shined like a beacon to all literate folks. Sorry. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2006, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-native-english-speaking-dopers-ask-your-english-questions-here/355405/54 "2006-05-06T00:36:25Z")
I’m going to tinker a little more with three things that have been answered already. I hope I don’t get into trouble. > [@Cemetery Savior](#): > > Slight hijack, but I just learned the derivation of the (mostly baseball-related) “Can of Corn” phrase. > > If you’ve not heard the phrase, when an outfielder catches a nice easy pop-fly, the announcer will say “That’s a can of corn”. > > It comes from that fact that cans of corn were one of themore popular canned veggies, and were stocked low on the shelves. Therefore, “easy”. Not surprisingly, (folklore, y’know) I heard exactly the opposite. One of the guys who broadcasts the Chicago White Sox games on WGN-TV explained it this way. In baseball, it’s a pop fly ball that falls right in a fielder’s glove where he was standing. In the old grocery stores, where the manager would take your order and go get it himself, some had a long pole with a hook for the high shelves. He could snag a can of corn off the top shelf, and it would drop right into his hand. **Antisemitism**. The Semites are the group that gave rise to both the Jews and the Arabs (descendants of Shem, or something.) Today, antisemitic usually means anti-Jewish, but when an arab hates a Jew, is that really antisemitism? Sometimes, I wonder. **Episcopal.** An episcopal clergyman explained to me, the word means that their church has **bishops.** Maybe that why the accent is on the second syllable. Or maybe not. ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2006, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-native-english-speaking-dopers-ask-your-english-questions-here/355405/55 "2006-05-06T00:44:28Z")
We met several members of the UK in Oz a couple of years ago. The phrase “happy as Larry” came up many times. Who the hell is Larry? We did finally did figure out “Who the hell is Ken?” when chatting with the Scots lasses, but still have no idea about Larry. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2006, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-native-english-speaking-dopers-ask-your-english-questions-here/355405/56 "2006-05-06T01:09:16Z")
> [@sinjin](#): > > Who the hell is Larry? One of the Three Stooges. They are quite popular in GB, as Jerry Lewis is in France. ---
**Author:** ![Chef\_Troy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85f322/32.png) [@Chef\_Troy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chef_Troy)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2006, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-native-english-speaking-dopers-ask-your-english-questions-here/355405/57 "2006-05-06T13:45:59Z")
> [@Sal Ammoniac](#): > > **Tikki** , good on ya, mate! The “Bob’s yer uncle” thing someone else will have to explain. I always thought it was the punch line from an old music hall routine, and meant, “Oh, now I got it,” or “The penny drops,” or something like that. I think there may be a difference in British and Australian usage. It actually means something more like “and there you have it,” or “and it’s as simple as that.” Kind of like putting Q.E.D. at the end of a mathematical proof. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2006, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-native-english-speaking-dopers-ask-your-english-questions-here/355405/58 "2006-05-06T14:49:33Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Are Germans hanged or hung? The latter, I hope. _licks lips_ ---
**Author:** ![PoorYorick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PoorYorick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoorYorick)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2006, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-native-english-speaking-dopers-ask-your-english-questions-here/355405/59 "2006-05-06T15:12:56Z")
> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#): > > Oh please, can we finally lay this one to rest? > > Perhaps up on the shelf next to “-gry”. It’s embarrassing to be caught out passing misinformation. Sorry, I’ve been on the board for a while, but I’ve never seen this one here. Could someone provide a link so I can cure my ignorance? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2006, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-native-english-speaking-dopers-ask-your-english-questions-here/355405/60 "2006-05-06T15:26:15Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > The latter, I hope. _licks lips_ Heh. _gets Matt his drool bib_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-native-english-speaking-dopers-ask-your-english-questions-here/355405.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-native-english-speaking-dopers-ask-your-english-questions-here/355405.md?page=4)