# Non-Reprobate Dopers: How does one officially become a Calvinist? (and who isn't one?) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 14, 2011, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-reprobate-dopers-how-does-one-officially-become-a-calvinist-and-who-isnt-one/571264 "2011-02-14T01:36:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-reprobate-dopers-how-does-one-officially-become-a-calvinist-and-who-isnt-one/571264/21 "2011-02-14T18:44:35Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > I was raised Presbyterian, and my father is an Elder in the church. He’s the one who tells me I’m going to hell because I’m no longer Christian. > > But when I was attending church regularly, all through my childhood, I was always told that God created me knowing what my choice of behavior was going to be. And I was created by a god that knew I was going to engage in certain behavior THAT HE CREATED ME KNOWING I WAS GOING TO ENGAGE IN, AND THAT HE WAS GOING TO PUNISH ME FOR. > > Yea. At five, I knew that kinda logic was, frankly, wtf. > > I mean, if I’m Wiccan now, then God created me knowing that I would become that, knowing that he would have to punish me through eternal damnation, and created me anyway. See, it makes perfect twisted sense if you think about it. Suppose you wrote a book, and at the end of the book, you write that the hero gets rewarded and the villain gets punished. But why does the villain get punished? You created him after all. But, given the actions of the villain (tying the girl to the railroad tracks, foreclosing on the widow’s farm, and so on), he certainly is evil, and deserves punishment. And the hero gets rewarded by you, because he deserves it, even though he only deserves it because you decided that the hero should save the girl and help the orphans. And so, the villain deserves punishment because he’s evil, and the hero deserves reward because he’s good, even though it was the author of the book who made them be good or evil. You wouldn’t want the villain to be rewarded after all the evil he’s done, right? Just because you created him to be evil doesn’t mean he’s not evil. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-reprobate-dopers-how-does-one-officially-become-a-calvinist-and-who-isnt-one/571264/22 "2011-02-14T19:19:29Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > And so, the villain deserves punishment because he’s evil, and the hero deserves reward because he’s good, even though it was the author of the book who made them be good or evil. You wouldn’t want the villain to be rewarded after all the evil he’s done, right? Just because you created him to be evil doesn’t mean he’s not evil. Which makes god nothing but a detached, uninvolved, and unloving creator rather than a being of love and mercy that we should worship with abject fear because he loves us. Still dumb. And ridiculous. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![No\_Wikipedia\_Cites](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@No\_Wikipedia\_Cites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/No_Wikipedia_Cites)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-reprobate-dopers-how-does-one-officially-become-a-calvinist-and-who-isnt-one/571264/23 "2011-02-14T19:37:30Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > However, because God is so super-cool, he’s decided to save some people. These people don’t deserve to be saved. They aren’t better than anyone else, they’re totally depraved like everyone else. In comes the SASS . . . This is somewhat disappointing, I thought Calvinists look at bums and vagrants and contrast it to the health & weath of the Church members, and say “look at the difference between the non-elect and the Elect”. That’s what I want, to be able to look down at the Reprobate losers who fill up our maximum security prisons, halfway houses, and public non-charter schools. (Is there some other church that lets me do that more openly?) But it seems my status as the Elect isn’t that way because of my individual worth, such as my regular reading of the master’s (Cecil Adams’) own words, or otherwise throwing a few pennies in the collection plate, but sort of just randomly. That seems a bit off. Then answer me this: How can all humans be equally depraved? This means that even ‘saints’ or charitable people are on the same plane as baby rapists? That strikes the conscience as absurd . . . can the Calvinists overcome this reaction by argument, or must we accept that we are all the equivalent of felons? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-reprobate-dopers-how-does-one-officially-become-a-calvinist-and-who-isnt-one/571264/24 "2011-02-14T20:01:42Z")
> [@sassyfras](#): > > This is somewhat disappointing, I thought Calvinists look at bums and vagrants and contrast it to the health & weath of the Church members, and say “look at the difference between the non-elect and the Elect”… Check out “prosperity theology” via google. Loose definition: The belief that “Jesus blesses believers with riches”. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-reprobate-dopers-how-does-one-officially-become-a-calvinist-and-who-isnt-one/571264/25 "2011-02-14T20:26:37Z")
> [@sassyfras](#): > > Then answer me this: How can all humans be equally depraved? This means that even ‘saints’ or charitable people are on the same plane as baby rapists? That strikes the conscience as absurd . . . can the Calvinists overcome this reaction by argument, or must we accept that we are all the equivalent of felons? Well, God is perfect, right? So ANY sin, no matter how small or how big, is intolerable to God. You see a huge difference between the baby-raper and the guy who forgot to say “thank you” when his wife passed him the salt. God doesn’t. “[Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God](http://www.ccel.org/ccel/edwards/sermons.sinners.html)” by Jonathan Edwards in 1741 is a classic rant on the subject, here’s a sample: > [@John Edwards](#): > > The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked: his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times more abominable in his eyes, than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince; and yet it is nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment. It is to be ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to hell the last night; that you was suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep. And there is no other reason to be given, why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that God’s hand has held you up. There is no other reason to be given why you have not gone to hell, since you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn worship. Yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you do not this very moment drop down into hell. ---
**Author:** ![TravisFromOR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cc9497/32.png) [@TravisFromOR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisFromOR)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-reprobate-dopers-how-does-one-officially-become-a-calvinist-and-who-isnt-one/571264/26 "2011-02-14T21:32:53Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > As others have said, Calvinism goes beyond just saying God **knows** who will and will not be saved: God **chooses** (elects) those who will and will not be saved. Yep. Under Calvinism, God isn’t all loving, he’s a prick. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-reprobate-dopers-how-does-one-officially-become-a-calvinist-and-who-isnt-one/571264/27 "2011-02-15T00:05:12Z")
> [@sassyfras](#): > > In comes the SASS . . . > > This is somewhat disappointing, I thought Calvinists look at bums and vagrants and contrast it to the health & weath of the Church members, and say “look at the difference between the non-elect and the Elect”. That’s what I want, to be able to look down at the Reprobate losers who fill up our maximum security prisons, halfway houses, and public non-charter schools. (Is there some other church that lets me do that more openly?) > > But it seems my status as the Elect isn’t that way because of my individual worth, such as my regular reading of the master’s (Cecil Adams’) own words, or otherwise throwing a few pennies in the collection plate, but sort of just randomly. That seems a bit off. > > Then answer me this: How can all humans be equally depraved? This means that even ‘saints’ or charitable people are on the same plane as baby rapists? That strikes the conscience as absurd . . . can the Calvinists overcome this reaction by argument, or must we accept that we are all the equivalent of felons? That’s a ridiculous definition of total depravity. It simply means we are in a way “handicapped” by original sin and thus are sinful by nature and cannot choose God. > [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Check out “prosperity theology” via google. Loose definition: The belief that “Jesus blesses believers with riches”. Prosperity theology people are not Calvinists, being instead quasi-Arminians, indeed often they are opposed to each other. > [@Lemur866](#): > > Well, God is perfect, right? So ANY sin, no matter how small or how big, is intolerable to God. You see a huge difference between the baby-raper and the guy who forgot to say “thank you” when his wife passed him the salt. God doesn’t. > > “[Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God](http://www.ccel.org/ccel/edwards/sermons.sinners.html)” by Jonathan Edwards in 1741 is a classic rant on the subject, here’s a sample: Jonathan Edwards, not John Edwards. Don’t confuse that great man with the adulterer from North Carolina. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-reprobate-dopers-how-does-one-officially-become-a-calvinist-and-who-isnt-one/571264/28 "2011-02-15T00:15:33Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > That’s a ridiculous definition It’s not clear your own position is solid enough to make such judgements. Why is this concept necessary, anyway? It’s not enough for your life to be evaluated after your death - God also has to have the ability to perfectly foresee all your actions before you are born _and_ you’re already starting out with the big negative of “original sin” ? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-reprobate-dopers-how-does-one-officially-become-a-calvinist-and-who-isnt-one/571264/29 "2011-02-15T01:44:06Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Prosperity theology people are not Calvinists, being instead quasi-Arminians, indeed often they are opposed to each other. Read more about Calvinist history. It was frequently put forth in Calvinist circles that material success and wealth was a sign that you were one of the Elect. Just look at Avihu Zakai’s 1992 article entitled [Exile and Kingdom: History and Apocalypse in the Puritan Migration to America](http://books.google.com/books?id=cXD6cX0C3k4C&printsec=frontcover&dq=Exile+and+Kingdom:+History+and+Apocalypse+in+the+Puritan+Migration+to+America&hl=en&ei=fNhZTbOfGIKdlgf44pGlDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false). In that article, it reveals, among other things, that the puritans were quite enamoured of Augustine’s idea, expressed in his book “The City of God” that “God’s divine providence selected, elected, and predestined certain people and certain places in order to restore humanity and reconcile it with its Creator.” (p. 77 in the above link) Prosperity theology has long been preached by many prominent Calvinist theologians. Granted, it has also been argued against by even more Calvinist theologians; but still it has played a significant part in the history of that belief, and continues to do so today for many who call themselves Calvinists. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-reprobate-dopers-how-does-one-officially-become-a-calvinist-and-who-isnt-one/571264/30 "2011-02-15T02:29:59Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > It’s not clear your own position is solid enough to make such judgements. > > Why is this concept necessary, anyway? It’s not enough for your life to be evaluated after your death - God also has to have the ability to perfectly foresee all your actions before you are born _and_ you’re already starting out with the big negative of “original sin” ? If God is omniscient certainly yes. All this are the logical consequences of an omniscient God. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-reprobate-dopers-how-does-one-officially-become-a-calvinist-and-who-isnt-one/571264/31 "2011-02-15T02:34:52Z")
Okay, _if_ God is omniscient. The Bible has instances that demonstrate otherwise, and it’s not exactly a solid source in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Speak\_to\_me\_Maddie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Speak\_to\_me\_Maddie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speak_to_me_Maddie)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-reprobate-dopers-how-does-one-officially-become-a-calvinist-and-who-isnt-one/571264/32 "2011-02-15T03:18:36Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > If God is omniscient certainly yes. All this are the logical consequences of an omniscient God. I’d say all these are _ **a** _ logical consequence of an omniscient God. Not _ **the** _. But I’d also say it is less about omniscience and more specifically about God being the First Cause. If one accepts that he is, and Calvin did, then it logically follows that since everything was set in motion by God on purpose, then everything that happens, including sin, was all set up from the get go. Calvin (and Calvinists) couldn’t see a way around this logical construct. Free will (as understood by non-Calvinists) is a logical impossibility in a reality which is in its very essence made up of God’s will. All of reality is God’s will manifest. Not metaphorically, but essentially. God’s will = reality, and that is all there is. You can’t do something against God’s will anymore than Jay Gatsby in the Great Gatsby can do something against F. Scott Fitzgerald’s will. Even if Gatsby does something Fitzgerald doesn’t like, it is still Fitzgerald making him do it. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-reprobate-dopers-how-does-one-officially-become-a-calvinist-and-who-isnt-one/571264/33 "2011-02-15T04:55:30Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Jonathan Edwards, not John Edwards. Don’t confuse that great man with the adulterer from North Carolina. Both are equally contemptable in the eyes of the Calvinist God. It’s not like you can buy your way out of hellfire just by not commiting adultery, or being from North Carolina. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-reprobate-dopers-how-does-one-officially-become-a-calvinist-and-who-isnt-one/571264/34 "2011-02-15T07:11:59Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Prosperity theology has long been preached by many prominent Calvinist theologians. Granted, it has also been argued against by even more Calvinist theologians; but still it has played a significant part in the history of that belief, and continues to do so today for many who call themselves Calvinists. It’s been most notably preached against by Calvin itself. Read his “Sermons on the Beatitudes”, where he says: > [@](#): > > Nevertheless, while life for believers may be easy today, they will be ready tomorrow to endure whatever afflictions God may send them. He may, perhaps, take from them the goods he has given. They are prepared to surrender them, since they know they received them on one condition–that they should hand them back whenever God should choose. The believer reasons this way: “Rich today, poor tomorrow. If God should change my circumstances so that ease gives way to suffering and laughter to tears, it is enough to know that I am still his child. He has promised to acknowledge me always as his, and in that I rest content.. . . > > We should regard material possessions simply as props to help us, until we see the Father face to face. He is our bliss and happiness. By all means let us laugh, but in the manner of those who are ready to weep should that be God’s will. Our joy should be joined with sadness, and with compassion for those who suffer. No one should live apart from others, and all should rejoice whenever God’s name is honored. Yes, rejoice, even when we have reason to feel sad and gloomy. Conversely, it may be that we are fine, in the best of spirits. But supposing there is some dire trouble in the church, or God’s name is blasphemed, held up to shame or ridicule–that should give us cause for grief, grief deeper even than the joy we felt. At such a time we ought to moderate the happiness which earthly blessings bring. We ought, as the proverb says, to mix water with our wine. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-reprobate-dopers-how-does-one-officially-become-a-calvinist-and-who-isnt-one/571264/35 "2011-02-15T13:49:15Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > It’s been most notably preached against by Calvin itself. Read his “Sermons on the Beatitudes”, where he says: While Calvin may have been against it, it remained a popular theme for a lot of his “followers”. Not the first time that practices and attitudes about religion deviated from what the founder of the religion actually said and did. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-reprobate-dopers-how-does-one-officially-become-a-calvinist-and-who-isnt-one/571264/36 "2011-02-15T15:23:12Z")
> [@SeldomSeen](#): > > Even committed Christians have difficulty understanding the divisions within christianity. Essentially there are four major divisions and several minor ones under the umbrella of Christianity. > > Orthodoxy: Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican. (yes, I know Anglicanism is distinctly different from the others, but it is still basically an orthodox practice. Doctrine relies heavily on historical precedent and extra-biblical documentation. Even Mormonism could be classified as neo-orthodox. > > Calvinism: Presbyterian, Reformed, some Baptist. Belief in doctrine of the elect, predestination, etc. Calvinism tends to be very dry, doctrinaire, legalistic. Calvinists are the lawyers and accoutants of the church world. They can be formidable in debate because their doctrine is very precise and well-documented. The modern doctrine of fundamentalism originated with the Calvinists. > > Armenianism: Methodist, Penticostal, Holiness movement. Largely supplanted by Wesleyianism. Tends to be faith-based and experiential and rely less on strict doctrine. Believe that salvation is available to all, but not necessarily that all will avail themselves of it. Modern evangelicism is usually associated with the Armenian churches. > > Unitarianism: Quaker, Mennonite, Jehovah’s Witness, Uniitarian/Universalist. Largely non-doctrinaire and non-sacremental, non-christocentric. Often humanistic in outlook. Most regard Jesus Christ as a teacher and leader, but not as God. Specifically deny the doctrine of the trinity. > > To address the OP…one can become a Calvinist simply by joining one of the calvinistic faiths. They do have the advantage of the eternal security thing. If you join their church, you’re automatically one of the elect. Of course that means you have to buy into everything they’re selling. > SS This doesn’t remotely describe Jehovah’s Witnesses. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-reprobate-dopers-how-does-one-officially-become-a-calvinist-and-who-isnt-one/571264/37 "2011-02-15T16:08:13Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > While Calvin may have been against it, it remained a popular theme for a lot of his “followers”. > > Not the first time that practices and attitudes about religion deviated from what the founder of the religion actually said and did. I agree that practices and attitudes about religion can deviate from what the founder of the religion says, but it doesn’t seem to me that the book you cited (“Exile and Kingdom”) really supports your thesis. In fact, if you look at page 244, dealing with some Puritan nobles willing to come to Massachusetts if they get special benefits due to their wealth and noble standing, > [@](#): > > Thus, when the lords demanded admission to freemanship in the colony according to their noble status, the Bay Puritans replied that “hereditary power and authority standeth only by the civil law”, and not upon the law of grace. Not material prosperity and hereditary privilege, but spiritual saving grace was the prerequisite for admission in the Puritan theocracy. . .the Puritans clarified their answer to the lords and warned that if magisterial power were given “to men not according to their godliness, which maketh them fit for church fellowship, but according to their wealth”, they would themselves be no better than “worldly men” I mean, there was in some parts of Calvinism the idea that material wealth could be an outward sign of grace, but that’s not the Prosperity Gospel. The Prosperity Gospel is a mid and late 20th century Pentecostal idea that says if you believe in God and Jesus, you’ll be rewarded with material wealth. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-reprobate-dopers-how-does-one-officially-become-a-calvinist-and-who-isnt-one/571264.md?page=1)