# Non-Roman "alphabetical order"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 14, 2012, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-roman-alphabetical-order/641028 "2012-11-14T20:44:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-roman-alphabetical-order/641028/21 "2012-11-15T18:43:25Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I’ve also seen the “Mc” and “Mac” names sorted separate, coming before all other M’s, but it seems very old school. > > With the arrival of computers, which used to be quite literal and stupid, the separating out of Mc and Mac has diminished in favor of strict alphabetical order these days. It’s also traditional to alphabetize numbers as if they were spelled out, but that’s pretty rare nowadays because of computer sorting. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-roman-alphabetical-order/641028/22 "2012-11-15T18:57:35Z")
> [@Noone\_Special](#): > > Juuuust to burst your bubble (because I can, and feel like being a meanie… :D) – an _aleph_ would almost certainly be a bull, not an ox. 😛 Ah, thanks…I was misinformed. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-roman-alphabetical-order/641028/23 "2012-11-15T19:18:50Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > There is really only one way of sorting Japanese in actual use in Japan. Any index, list, etc., you come across will be sorted using the [Gojuon order](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goj%C5%ABon) (A,K,S,T,N,H,M,Y,R,W). Huh. Didn’t know that had a name. The old-school one I expect **Giles** is talking about is [iroha](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroha). > [@suranyi](#): > > It’s also traditional to alphabetize numbers as if they were spelled out, but that’s pretty rare nowadays because of computer sorting. Numbers often go before letters, unless you’re Apple’s iPod interface, in which case they go at the end. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-roman-alphabetical-order/641028/24 "2012-11-16T00:13:25Z")
> [@Kizarvexius](#): > > Wordnerdgasmic!! :o ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-roman-alphabetical-order/641028/25 "2012-11-16T09:30:51Z")
> [@Kizarvexius](#): > > Funny…I had considered this possibility while contemplating the issue before I wrote the OP. I know that Classical Greek had an alphabet-driven numbering system similar to Roman numerals, so it makes plenty of sense that the cross-pollination of cultures in the Hellenistic Mediterranean might lead to the same idea being applied to other forms of writing. Yeah. Greek gematria is numbered pretty much according to the Greek alphabetical order, forming discrepancies with the original Hebrew numerical values. But Arabic gematria follows the Hebrew alphabetical order and numerical values exactly. Then there are the 6 more letters in Arabic, which actually makes it work better, because they take the range of values up to 1,000 whereas Hebrew only has enough letters to make it up to 400: 1 ’ 2 b 3 g / j 4 d 5 h 6 v / w 7 z 8 ḥ 9 ṭ 10 y 20 k 30 l 40 m 50 n 60 s 70 ‘ 80 p / f 90 ṣ 100 q 200 r 300 sh 400 t 500 th 600 kh 700 dh 800 ḍ 900 ẓ 1000 gh So my name in Hebrew is יוחנה (y v ḥ n h), which gives a numerical total of 79. But in Greek I’m Ίωάννα, which adds up to 912. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-roman-alphabetical-order/641028/26 "2012-11-16T09:38:02Z")
I just posted this in another thread about languages, but I figure it’ll be handy here also. [here](http://www.branah.com) is a site with virtual keyboards for a number of languages. Some of the keyboards require you to change your browser’s encoding to display the keybarod and the typed characters. **Johannah** : At first, I thought this question might be a bit deviant. Then I remembered this is the SDMB after all. Are there any common names (either singly or boy-girl combination as in a couple) where the numeric value of the letters sums to 69? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-roman-alphabetical-order/641028/27 "2012-11-16T10:16:00Z")
> [@Noone\_Special](#): > > Hebrew (like Arabic) has a clear and persistent alphabetical order. > Interestingly, the first letters are “Aleph” and “Bet” 🙂 Arabic, Hebrew, Greek and Roman alphabets all derive from the same source, so that’s not too surprising. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-roman-alphabetical-order/641028/28 "2012-11-16T11:03:36Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > **Johannah** : At first, I thought this question might be a bit deviant. Then I remembered this is the SDMB after all. Are there any common names (either singly or boy-girl combination as in a couple) where the numeric value of the letters sums to 69? Kind of cheating, because it’s not a Hebrew name, but a woman named Tess (טס) could qualify. Or a man named Timmy (טימי), but that’s a nickname already, so maybe it’s stretching it 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-roman-alphabetical-order/641028/29 "2012-11-16T13:17:44Z")
Other names that equal 69: Nadia Johnny Dina Dante (Google is my friend) ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-roman-alphabetical-order/641028/30 "2012-11-16T17:42:39Z")
It should be pointed out that different languages that use the Latin alphabet have different ways of alphabetizing. For example, French simply ignores diacritics for the purposes of alphabetizing, except (apparently) that if two words are exactly the same except for diacritics, the diacritics come after: _cote, côte, côté,_ but then _coteau_. Spanish ignores most diacritics, but it treats ñ as a separate letter alphabetized after n (ch, ll, and rr also used to be treated as separate letters but aren’t anymore.) Swedish treats its vowels with diacritics å ä ö as separate letters and places them at the end of the alphabet, [as does Norwegian with Æ Ø Å](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHpDv6KSaBY). Esperanto treats its letters with diacritics as separate letters that follow the equivalent diacritic-less letters: ĉ ĝ ĥ ĵ ŝ ŭ. It refers to them with their own names (_ĉ_ is called _ĉo_, not _c-ĉapelo_, for example, although _ŭ_ is sometimes called _u-hoko_). Finally, English itself used to alphabetize i and j together, as well as u and v; in Johnson’s dictionary, for example, _jeweler_ would come before _if._ ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-roman-alphabetical-order/641028/31 "2012-11-16T20:31:38Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > It should be pointed out that different languages that use the Latin alphabet have different ways of alphabetizing. For at least one non-Latin alphabet, it can simply be [different countries that use the same language and the same writing system order the letters and even name them differently](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hangul#Sorting_order). And I just remembered that for English-speaking countries, there’s not even a universal consensus on the name for one of the letters. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-roman-alphabetical-order/641028/32 "2012-11-16T21:07:41Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > Swedish treats its vowels with diacritics å ä ö as separate letters and places them at the end of the alphabet, [as does Norwegian with Æ Ø Å](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHpDv6KSaBY). As does Finnish with ä, ö. Which seems quite bizarre to me, and took me the longest time to get used to when using Finnish dictionaries. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-roman-alphabetical-order/641028/33 "2012-11-17T02:02:42Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > Swedish treats its vowels with diacritics å ä ö as separate letters and places them at the end of the alphabet, [as does Norwegian with Æ Ø Å](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHpDv6KSaBY). I didn’t have to click to know what the link went to! Danish is the same as Norwegian, a legacy of a united kingdom (Norway was also part of Sweden, but not for long enough, it seems.) ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-roman-alphabetical-order/641028/34 "2012-11-17T05:23:57Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > English itself used to alphabetize i and j together, as well as u and v; in Johnson’s dictionary, for example, _jeweler_ would come before _if._ _J_ is the last letter to be added to the alphabet. It didn’t really gain status as a letter in its own right until circa 1800. Before that, it was treated as a variant of _I_. In Italian, _J_ is still called “long i.” ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-roman-alphabetical-order/641028/35 "2012-11-19T15:31:05Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > _J_ is the last letter to be added to the alphabet. It didn’t really gain status as a letter in its own right until circa 1800. Before that, it was treated as a variant of _I_. In Italian, _J_ is still called “long i.” And of course in French, Spanish, and a couple of other languages, it’s called “Greek I” (in French _i grec_), and in German it’s called _Ypsilon_. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-roman-alphabetical-order/641028/36 "2012-11-19T15:36:45Z")
Aw dammit, this is what happens when I post after only one cup of coffee. Obviously everything I said there is about Y, not J. Thinko, sorry. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-roman-alphabetical-order/641028.md?page=1)