# Non-US Dopers: Do You Have 4 Way Stops? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 18, 2009, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-do-you-have-4-way-stops/481838 "2009-01-18T06:13:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-do-you-have-4-way-stops/481838/41 "2009-01-19T00:10:32Z")
> [@Marienee](#): > > Dutch guys also think that the first in-first out rule must inevitably result in aggression, chaos and firey death. That also. ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-do-you-have-4-way-stops/481838/42 "2009-01-19T00:18:55Z")
> [@Mbossa](#): > > I’ve seen one four-way stop in NZ: the intersection of [Cuba St & Abel Smith St, Wellington](http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&sll=-41.294777,174.77488&sspn=0,359.996513&ie=UTF8&ll=-41.296254,174.774064&spn=0.001439,0.003487&t=h&z=19&iwloc=addr&layer=c&cbll=-41.29632,174.77427&panoid=H0pJABjEnB3CzXzPe_iqyw&cbp=12,291.22142132559964,,0,14.834138066092907). I remember that intersection. It was always fairly chaotic. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-do-you-have-4-way-stops/481838/43 "2009-01-19T00:34:29Z")
I can see how a “yield to the right” rule would work for a mostly-deserted intersection out in the country, but what about a busier intersection? There are a few four-way stops around here where you’ll get a line of three or four cars each way, during rush hour. So at any given point, everyone has someone to their right. I presume that they don’t all just wait until Judgement Day, any more than we do here. But what do they do? ---
**Author:** ![3acresandatruck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/e79b87/32.png) [@3acresandatruck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3acresandatruck)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-do-you-have-4-way-stops/481838/44 "2009-01-19T00:43:17Z")
**Chronos** , the City of St. Louis is notoriously rife with 4-way stops: 4-way stop signs at every single intersection for all streets for blocks on end. They have evolved a local style referred to as the “St. Louis rolling stop”. You slow down for an intersection and if there are no cars or people, you roll on through at a reduced rate of speed. If there is another car already there, you wait your turn. If two cars arrive at the same time, you yield to the car on your right. When traffic’s backed up, you just alternate. If someone has to make a left, they work their way through. If there’s a lot of cars, there’s a lot of eye contact: it’s like not bumping into everyone on a busy sidewalk…you just navigate. I’ve also found that driving a 20-year-old Ford sedan can give you the right-of-way over that guy in a brand-new Beemer. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-do-you-have-4-way-stops/481838/45 "2009-01-19T00:55:42Z")
> [@](#): > > They have evolved a local style referred to as the “St. Louis rolling stop” I never cease to be amazed at how many different localities think that the “rolling stop” is a local style. Once, I even saw a magazine article that rated New Yorkers as the worst drivers in the country, based entirely on the “New York stop”. ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-do-you-have-4-way-stops/481838/46 "2009-01-19T01:00:24Z")
What I don’t understand about 4-way stops: Doesn’t a red STOP sign imply the lesser “yield” sign? This cannot be the case with all-way stops (I understand if you arrive first you can enter the intersection, even if that means the crossing traffic, which arrives a bit later, must brake - which would be a violation of a “yield” sign, wouldn’t it?). How do drivers distinguish between arriving at a 4-way stop (where they must stop then can proceed if they arrived first), and arriving at an intersection where their road has stop signs but the crossing road does not? When they assume the former but the latter is the case, wouldn’t traffic from the higher-priority road crash into them? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-do-you-have-4-way-stops/481838/47 "2009-01-19T01:14:48Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > _sigh_ > > Any argument involving roundabouts in New England is automatically null and void, because of the inevitable confusion between a modern roundabout and a large traffic circle, both within the discussion and within the population using the thing. Am I right in thinking that vehicles entering a traffic circle have right of way (as opposed to vehicles _circulating_ having right of way on a UK roundabout)? If so, I’m not surprised people hate traffic circles. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-do-you-have-4-way-stops/481838/48 "2009-01-19T01:33:37Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I can see how a “yield to the right” rule would work for a mostly-deserted intersection out in the country, but what about a busier intersection? There are a few four-way stops around here where you’ll get a line of three or four cars each way, during rush hour. So at any given point, everyone has someone to their right. I presume that they don’t all just wait until Judgement Day, any more than we do here. But what do they do? Lights or roundabouts. ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-do-you-have-4-way-stops/481838/49 "2009-01-19T01:41:06Z")
> [@tschild](#): > > What I don’t understand about 4-way stops: Doesn’t a red STOP sign imply the lesser “yield” sign? This cannot be the case with all-way stops (I understand if you arrive first you can enter the intersection, even if that means the crossing traffic, which arrives a bit later, must brake - which would be a violation of a “yield” sign, wouldn’t it?). > > How do drivers distinguish between arriving at a 4-way stop (where they must stop then can proceed if they arrived first), and arriving at an intersection where their road has stop signs but the crossing road does not? When they assume the former but the latter is the case, wouldn’t traffic from the higher-priority road crash into them? At least around here, the signage is such that you can know who has a stop and who doesn’t. For a 4-way stop, the sign looks like [this](http://www.edkopesky.com/Arret.jpg), indicating that all directions will encounter a stop at the intersection. Similarly, [this](http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd115/truemaskedwabbit/180px-Arret.jpg)is a three way stop, as is [this](http://farm1.static.flickr.com/145/396259093_f3e38e4717.jpg?v=0), but from one of the other directions. Offhand, I don’t think it’s a rule, but if you only see a Stop sign alone, like [this](http://www.barraclou.com/photo/highway/arret.jpg), then you assume you have a stop but that the crossing traffic might not, so you look at the intersection to see what crossing traffic does or if you can see their signs (no other signs are octagons). If they have a stop, they stop, if they don’t, they don’t. But either way, you basically are expected to treat them all the same; stop, see what other traffic is doing, and proceed through the intersection when it is safe to do so (this may involve eye contact or hand waving or light flashing or other communication to other drivers). It really isn’t all that complicated, and you get used to it pretty quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-do-you-have-4-way-stops/481838/50 "2009-01-19T02:58:41Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > I don’t know, I’ve certainly come across 4-way stops which could easily have been ranked as minor enough to not bother marking in the UK. I lived in Toronto for years. It is rife with four-way stops, especially in residential areas. It is not unusual, for example, for every intersection to have four-way stops. As might be guessed, most are unnecessary, but they serve two purposes: – Traffic must go slowly–you simply cannot get up to speed when you have to stop every block. This helps with safety, since many Toronto children walk to and from school. – They deter traffic looking for a faster/easier way through the neighbourhoods. It either goes on the main roads (which can be very slow in rush hour), or it takes its time stopping and starting its way to wherever it is going. Toronto has been trying for years to encourage people to leave the car at home and take public transit, and this is another way to do it. And they most assuredly are not Yield signs, as many Toronto drivers have found out the hard way. ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-do-you-have-4-way-stops/481838/51 "2009-01-19T03:41:40Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > I guess it depends on what you’re used to. > > Here, we just had the Highway Department install 2 of those roundabouts, and drivers are up in arms about it. Demanding that they be bulldozed, and replaced with ‘real’ intersections. Or at least release the name of the fool designer who did this, so they can hang him in effigy (or maybe in person, if they can catch him). > > The location seems odd. These were placed on a main highway, at the intersection with a minor county road. The highway has a 60mi/hr speed limit, but it suddenly drops down to 20mi/hr at these roundabouts, then goes back up again. The curve is sharp, and not banked – if drivers don’t hit their brakes hard, they will be going too fast on the roundabout, and in danger of going over the side. I’m a bit confused here. They want to remove the roundabout, and replace it with a 4-way stop, because the roundabout slows them down? Isn’t the whole point of a 4-way stop… stopping? How is that any faster than a roundabout? ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-do-you-have-4-way-stops/481838/52 "2009-01-19T04:09:29Z")
> [@mnemosyne](#): > > At least around here, the signage is such that you can know who has a stop and who doesn’t. For a 4-way stop, the sign looks like [this](http://www.edkopesky.com/Arret.jpg), indicating that all directions will encounter a stop at the intersection. In the US, there’s a smaller sign below the STOP that says “4 way”. Ah, [here’s a picture.](http://www.seniordrivers.org/Driving/images/4stopsign.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-do-you-have-4-way-stops/481838/53 "2009-01-19T05:27:18Z")
I think Ontario has “4-way” or “all ways” as well. Québec does it with pictures because of language issues - though having the sign itself only say “Arrêt” kind of defeats that purpose. Of course, not every sign is only in French… some actually say “Stop” (making it an English sign, except that "Stop"is also a valid French word… only some people don’t think so) and some say “Arrêt Stop”, making it biligual (with the result that people will refer to the intersection as having an “arrêt-stop” when giving directions)… stupid little things like [this](http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080316/stop_signs_080316/20080316?hub=Canada)take up a lot of time in regional politics. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-do-you-have-4-way-stops/481838/54 "2009-01-19T06:26:03Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Am I right in thinking that vehicles entering a traffic circle have right of way (as opposed to vehicles _circulating_ having right of way on a UK roundabout)? Yes, and even where attempts have been made to improve things, their layout is horrendous and does not provide any of the benefits of a proper roundabout. ---
**Author:** ![Shamozzle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shamozzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shamozzle)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-do-you-have-4-way-stops/481838/55 "2009-01-19T09:03:39Z")
> [@tschild](#): > > What I don’t understand about 4-way stops: Doesn’t a red STOP sign imply the lesser “yield” sign? This cannot be the case with all-way stops (I understand if you arrive first you can enter the intersection, even if that means the crossing traffic, which arrives a bit later, must brake - which would be a violation of a “yield” sign, wouldn’t it?). > > How do drivers distinguish between arriving at a 4-way stop (where they must stop then can proceed if they arrived first), and arriving at an intersection where their road has stop signs but the crossing road does not? When they assume the former but the latter is the case, wouldn’t traffic from the higher-priority road crash into them? Where I live, a yield sign is essentially the same as a stop sign with the only difference being that with a yield sign you aren’t required by law to come to a complete stop should there be no traffic on the street to which you are yielding. When you have a stop sign and the crossing road does not, you are required to stop in all cases and should there be traffic on the dominant street you are required to let them pass should your progress interfere with their travel, even if you arrive first. Thus, you will never see a 4-way yield scenario nor one street with yield signs and the cross street with stop signs, but you will see one street with no signs and the cross street with either yield signs, stop signs or no signs at all. ---
**Author:** ![Ichbin\_Dubist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/51bf81/32.png) [@Ichbin\_Dubist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ichbin_Dubist)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-do-you-have-4-way-stops/481838/56 "2009-01-19T13:02:19Z")
There are tons of these in San Francisco, mainly on side streets, where no one is going too fast anyway. As someone born in NJ is always seemed like a recipe for disaster to me, but I adjusted. A friend of mine theorized that cars were allowed to proceed in order of “born nearest the Atlantic”: native New Yorkers and Bostonites first, then Midwesterners, with people actually born in California going last. He also gave a name to the situation wherein someone would get to the intersection before you but wave and insist that you go first: “out-mellowing.” ---
**Author:** ![Rayne\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df705f/32.png) [@Rayne\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayne_Man)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-do-you-have-4-way-stops/481838/57 "2009-01-19T14:52:51Z")
On the island of Trinidad they have quite a neat solution for some light-controlled junctions. In the daytime the traffic light just operate normally. At night you will find that the lights on the “major” road of the junction will flash amber (orange) whilst the lights on the “minor” road will flash red. The official instructions are that when you come to a flashing amber you should slow and “proceed with caution” over the junction. With the flashing red you have to come to a complete stop before driving through the junction. ---
**Author:** ![Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petrobey_Mavromihalis)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-do-you-have-4-way-stops/481838/58 "2009-01-19T15:19:06Z")
There are 4-way stops on minor roads in Greece. Often these are in urban situations where you can’t see whether there is any traffic coming on the road you are crossing. The procedure is to sound your horn and keep going at twice the speed limit. We also have the occasional roundabout where approximately 40% of cars yield to left, whilst the other 60% work on the first arrived, first to go principle. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-do-you-have-4-way-stops/481838/59 "2009-01-19T15:23:58Z")
In Spain I’ve never seen a 4-way stop, at least not one that’s marked. The closest thing is where two little roads cross in the middle of nowhere, which can lead to an unmarked 4-way stop if there’s tall plants. Mind you, most people would do what **Petrobey** described, only with no horns involved. If you ever find yourself in one of those I suggest stopping, or at least yielding, in case the other car turns out to be made by John Deere. In roundabouts, the roundabout is generally considered the “preferential road,” so those cars already in it have precedence over those trying to enter. This caused a lot of confusion to my brother, because on X-shaped crossings it’s the one on the right that’s got precedence. Once I explained it, and showed with some gummy bears how it’s a lot more fluid as it is than the way he tought, he got it. Gummy bears as educational tools… I did see one in Costa Rica: it confused the heck out of everybody. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-do-you-have-4-way-stops/481838/60 "2009-01-19T18:26:36Z")
> [@mnemosyne](#): > > Québec does it with pictures because of language issues - though having the sign itself only say “Arrêt” kind of defeats that purpose. Of course, not every sign is only in French… some actually say “Stop” (making it an English sign, except that "Stop"is also a valid French word… only some people don’t think so) and some say “Arrêt Stop”, making it biligual (with the result that people will refer to the intersection as having an “arrêt-stop” when giving directions)… stupid little things like [this](http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080316/stop_signs_080316/20080316?hub=Canada)take up a lot of time in regional politics. **mnemosyne** , you live in Quebec. Have you ever heard someone in a position of any importance complain about “STOP” on stop signs? Of course not. There are many important unresolved language issues in Canada and Quebec, so please do not reduce them to some idiocies “those French people” do, which in reality nobody cares about. (Of course I’d expect the English Canadian media to focus on these idiocies and not on the real stuff, but that’s a topic for another day.) In fact, that’s not even the purpose of this thread, which is “do four-way stop signs exist where you live?” Yes, four-way stop signs are quite common in Quebec, and I suppose in most places in Canada. And if “stop” is a word in English and French and every other language, it’s still worth noting that many if not most places have stop signs with a word in the local language on it. I believe I’ve seen a picture of a stop sign in Northern Quebec with Cree writing on it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-do-you-have-4-way-stops/481838.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-do-you-have-4-way-stops/481838.md?page=4)