# Non-US Dopers: What do you see as ridiculous American propaganda? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 7, 2014, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-what-do-you-see-as-ridiculous-american-propaganda/687876 "2014-05-07T05:48:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-what-do-you-see-as-ridiculous-american-propaganda/687876/41 "2014-05-07T18:58:54Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > I always want to point this out, especially in debates about guns, where people often don’t seem to understand the difference between the current legality of something and a position on whether or not it _should_ be legal. The idea that the Second Amendment might not be the best way of doing things, or that it could be changed, just doesn’t seem to come up much. With guns specifically, I think the second amendment is just a convenient cover for an underlying fear of government and other people. Our mythos is built upon a “We did it ourselves” idea, all rugged cowboys and revolvers. I think someone once said something like “America is a 21st-century superpower that thinks of itself as an 18th-century frontier”. So the gun nuts don’t necessarily care about the Constitution, they care about, well, the guns. The illusion of self-determination preserved through small arms ownership is what drives them. > [@](#): > > Also, the implication that America “invented” freedom and democracy. I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone state it outright, but I’ve often heard Americans say things that imply they imagine Americans came up with these great ideas and the rest of the world is slowly catching on. Yeah. As a somewhat college-educated American, I’m still unclear about the history of freedom and democracy. It goes something like “Ancient Athens was a democracy, the Europeans wrote a document to reign in a king, and then America saved the world” :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-what-do-you-see-as-ridiculous-american-propaganda/687876/42 "2014-05-07T19:04:22Z")
> [@Reply](#): > > … the Europeans wrote a document to reign in a king, and then America saved the world" :dubious: The king did the reigning. Everyone else just reined. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-what-do-you-see-as-ridiculous-american-propaganda/687876/43 "2014-05-07T19:11:20Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > The stuff that first came to mind has already been mentioned: the best schools (no, only those everybody has heard of, and many that you think of as very good/famous are unfamiliar to the immense majority of the world), I’m not following. What about the best schools? > [@](#): > > the pledge of allegiance (as has been mentioned in several threads, this is something which actually keeps many eligible residents from becoming citizens, because they take it seriously). Are you suggesting that the existence of the pledge is preventing some people from becoming U. S. citizens? Nobody can be forced to say it. > [@](#): > > This also doesn’t come from your government directly, but I find it very irritating when retcons of pre-existing characters end up producing situations which would have been incompatible with America’s racial history. Given how much you guys love to try and impose your views on race on the rest of the world, the least you could do is own up! (Please don’t throw anything hard) I don’t understand what you’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![PurpleClogs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f04885/32.png) [@PurpleClogs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PurpleClogs)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-what-do-you-see-as-ridiculous-american-propaganda/687876/44 "2014-05-07T19:18:34Z")
American here… The pledge is something we memorized in elementary school. I don’t think I’ve had a reason to recite it since (I’m 45). It’s not creepy. It’s an important piece of history and a bit like a love letter. We make fun of Americans who can’t identify a photo of significant politicians, see this on the late night shows often. So I’m glad teachers are showing kids what our presidents look like. I think the average educated well read American knows very well that the US has some significant issues and that not everyone in the non US world is rooting for us. Some of our pro USA stuff is just to prop our own spirits up. You don’t change the words to your anthem when your team goes through a losing streak. Not every American agrees with what comes out of Hollywood or is reported in American media. I do find this interesting to read what others think of us. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-what-do-you-see-as-ridiculous-american-propaganda/687876/45 "2014-05-07T19:31:43Z")
> [@PurpleClogs](#): > > American here… > > The pledge is something we memorized in elementary school. I don’t think I’ve had a reason to recite it since (I’m 45). It’s not creepy. It’s an important piece of history and a bit like a love letter. I said it every school day for about the first three years of school. I consider it creepy and fascistic. It offends me as an American that a pledge of loyalty of any kind should exist. > [@](#): > > We make fun of Americans who can’t identify a photo of significant politicians, see this on the late night shows often. So I’m glad teachers are showing kids what our presidents look like. Showing kids what presidents or other important people look like can be done in many ways. Hanging up a portrait of a particular office holder in a place of honor is offensive to me. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-what-do-you-see-as-ridiculous-american-propaganda/687876/46 "2014-05-07T19:42:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by PurpleClogs View Post > American here… > > The pledge is something we memorized in elementary school. I don’t think I’ve had a reason to recite it since (I’m 45). It’s not creepy. It’s an important piece of history and a bit like a love letter. Oh yes, it’s creepy all right. Most school have kids recite it “voluntarily” through the 12 grade. I’ve seen it a civic meetings, and other public events. I don’t see it as a ‘piece of history’ at all. I don’t associate with any historical event, major or minor. Just part of the Cold War craziness, so there’s that, I guess. I’d put in one step below prayer in public on the offensiveness meter. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-what-do-you-see-as-ridiculous-american-propaganda/687876/47 "2014-05-07T19:45:08Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I’m not following. What about the best schools? You’re convinced that you have the best schools in the world, and will tell so to anybody who listens; furthermore, all your schools are superb. From your propaganda, the only universities outside the US are Harvard and Cambridge. Note that, per the OP’s request, this isn’t you-Acsenray or you-Dopers, it’s you-propaganda. > [@](#): > > Are you suggesting that the existence of the pledge is preventing some people from becoming U. S. citizens? Nobody can be forced to say it. Not suggesting, stating, and you have to say it when you become a citizen. ---
**Author:** ![PurpleClogs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f04885/32.png) [@PurpleClogs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PurpleClogs)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-what-do-you-see-as-ridiculous-american-propaganda/687876/48 "2014-05-07T19:47:01Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Most school have kids recite it “voluntarily” through the 12 grade. . In what state? I’ve not heard of a single jr or high school doing this. Texas and Louisiana definitely don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-what-do-you-see-as-ridiculous-american-propaganda/687876/49 "2014-05-07T19:51:15Z")
> [@PurpleClogs](#): > > In what state? I’ve not heard of a single jr or high school doing this. Texas and Louisiana definitely don’t. Maryland when I grew up (yeah, years ago) and Washingon state currently. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-what-do-you-see-as-ridiculous-american-propaganda/687876/50 "2014-05-07T19:59:10Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Not suggesting, stating, and you have to say it when you become a citizen. The Pledge of Allegiance to the flag is not part of naturalization. There’s a separate oath of allegiance that says upon becoming a citizen, you will give up any allegiance to any other state and that you will serve in the Armed Forces or other national service if required to by law. I don’t have a problem with that one. That’s basically what being a citizen is, at a minimum. The law allows you to request a modification if you can show that serving in the military would be against your religious beliefs ( I think they should expand this to non-religious beliefs as well). You can also request a modification to remove the words “oath” and “god.” ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-what-do-you-see-as-ridiculous-american-propaganda/687876/51 "2014-05-07T20:00:55Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > The deification of the founding fathers is just bizarre. The deification of Ronald Reagan is even more bizarre. ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-what-do-you-see-as-ridiculous-american-propaganda/687876/52 "2014-05-07T20:04:31Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > The king did the reigning. Everyone else just reined. 😉 I did say “somewhat” 😉 And c’mon, it’s not like English is _our_ language. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-what-do-you-see-as-ridiculous-american-propaganda/687876/53 "2014-05-07T20:13:58Z")
Public schools in Cleveland and Lakewood certainly recite the pledge. > [@](#): > > Quoth **Nava** : > > From your propaganda, the only universities outside the US are Harvard and Cambridge. Wait, who else is trying to claim Harvard? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![PurpleClogs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f04885/32.png) [@PurpleClogs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PurpleClogs)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-what-do-you-see-as-ridiculous-american-propaganda/687876/54 "2014-05-07T20:15:38Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Maryland when I grew up (yeah, years ago) and Washingon state currently. [Maryland The state requires all students and “teachers in charge” to stand, face the American flag, and recite the Pledge of Allegiance.\*\* Any student or teacher who wishes to be excused will be excused\*\*. Md. Code Ann., Education, § 7-105(c)(3)-(d) (2005) Washington Students in public schools **who wish to recite** the Pledge shall do so before all school assemblies and “immediately before interschool events, when feasible.” At the beginning of each school day, and at the beginning of each school assembly, “appropriate flag exercises” shall take place in each classroom. Wash. Rev. Code Ann. § 28A.230.140 (2005). .]([http://patriotismforall.tekcities.com/state\_laws.html](http://patriotismforall.tekcities.com/state_laws.html)) My bold. It’s voluntary in both those states too. ---
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-what-do-you-see-as-ridiculous-american-propaganda/687876/55 "2014-05-07T20:28:45Z")
I find there’s a kind of subtle xenophobia that exists in American culture. As if only true Americans can be really trusted and everyone else is slightly flawed in some way. Bad guys in movies… they’ll cast an Englishman. Even though the Englishman is putting on an American accent, somehow it’s the English guy that gets given that role. And I look at things like Star Trek: it seems pretty blatant to me that Star Fleet represents America and the aliens are other countries/nationalities. Maybe not specific ones (although sometimes I wonder). Often a crisis is resolved in Star Trek once a Star Fleet officer has just made an alien culture or enemy see reason i.e. once Star Fleet has demonstrated it’s values are better. It’s actually sickening to watch once you realise this. This to me is American propaganda. And in typical American fashion it’s done by the private sector! ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-what-do-you-see-as-ridiculous-american-propaganda/687876/56 "2014-05-07T20:36:28Z")
> [@PurpleClogs](#): > > It’s voluntary in both those states too. Nominally. Those who decline to participate do sometimes face repercussions. ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-what-do-you-see-as-ridiculous-american-propaganda/687876/57 "2014-05-07T20:37:49Z")
> [@PurpleClogs](#): > > American here… > > The pledge is something we memorized in elementary school. I don’t think I’ve had a reason to recite it since (I’m 45). It’s not creepy. It’s an important piece of history and a bit like a love letter. It’s creepy as hell! It fosters in little kids the mentality that the Republic is something above and beyond them, to be worshipped and saluted, not participated in and changed as necessary. It’s one of the first steps in a lifelong indoctrination into a pseudo-democracy where loyalty and subservience are subtly taught as more important than reform and social good. It’s where the whole USA! USA! thing begins in little kids. It’s the same have-faith-in-your-benevolent-overlords mindset that any authoritarian government pushes on its citizens. The very idea that our government needs a “love letter” instead of a harsh spanking now and then and is why the average US citizen thinks they’re powerless to do anything but consume and have sex. > [@](#): > > I think the average educated well read American knows very well that the US has some significant issues and that not everyone in the non US world is rooting for us. Some of our pro USA stuff is just to prop our own spirits up. You don’t change the words to your anthem when your team goes through a losing streak. The educated, well-read American is already not average. Our pre-college education sucks compared to the rest of the world, and our best college education is reserved mostly for our elite. Thinking “It’s ok, the smart Americans know what’s up” doesn’t really help when most people don’t know, and when they do they just think the foreigners are wrong and dumb, and then go on to vote for policies that they don’t really understand but are nonetheless passionate about because they were told be by some charismatic politician or vitriolic talk show host. Maybe you _should_ change the anthem when your team is always fighting the wrong wars and your anthem just keeps beating the drums, because hell, it’s always U.S.A. versus them, them, them, right? > [@Nava](#): > > You’re convinced that you have the best schools in the world, and will tell so to anybody who listens; furthermore, all your schools are superb. From your propaganda, the only universities outside the US are Harvard and Cambridge. I presume you mean Oxford, but point taken. I really can’t think of any major non-American universities besides Oxford, Cambridge, and maybe the Sorbonne. Which other ones are internationally reknown? > [@PurpleClogs](#): > > In what state? I’ve not heard of a single jr or high school doing this. Texas and Louisiana definitely don’t. To be fair, it’s questionable whether they consider themselves part of the Republic to begin with 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-what-do-you-see-as-ridiculous-american-propaganda/687876/58 "2014-05-07T20:39:40Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > It offends me as an American that a pledge of loyalty of any kind should exist. It’s fairly common here to have the flag in _church_, right in the front of the sanctuary. That may be another Cold War relic too. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-what-do-you-see-as-ridiculous-american-propaganda/687876/59 "2014-05-07T20:44:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by PurpleClogs View Post > It’s voluntary in both those states too. Participation has to be voluntarily. We haven’t completely lost our freedom yet. But the exercise is mandated by law, with an opt out if you wish to be “that guy.” (which, by the way, I was always happy to be.) Nevertheless, every morning, during announcements, comes the same stupid pledge… ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-what-do-you-see-as-ridiculous-american-propaganda/687876/60 "2014-05-07T20:54:59Z")
Of course, according to prophecy, The Pledge of Allegiance will be recited from memory by only the most patriotic among us—hand in hand over the grave of Benjamin Franklin, thereby resurrecting him from the dead by way of our one, true God, to finally gain dominion over all the earth as is America’s rite, having invented freedom, democracy, rock and roll and cold, hard cash. All those who have taken the Pledge will be immune from Franklin’s electric wrath. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-what-do-you-see-as-ridiculous-american-propaganda/687876.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-what-do-you-see-as-ridiculous-american-propaganda/687876.md?page=4)