# Non-US dopers: what's it feel like in times of political upheaval? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 23, 2010, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-whats-it-feel-like-in-times-of-political-upheaval/533439 "2010-03-23T04:53:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-whats-it-feel-like-in-times-of-political-upheaval/533439/21 "2010-03-23T14:41:16Z")
Well, was holding off on a post here since it’s supposed to be from non-US dopers talking about other countries. Since it really seems to be about America and how bad things are now… > [@](#): > > And from what you see of news in the US, how does it compare? Since others have explained that, compared to the times some of us grew up in, things today are mild in comparison, I remember when every year there were riots in South Korea over issues ranging from US troops to their political system and economic stability. When I was going to college there used to be anti-war riots in Europe every year, lots of protesting and civil unrest. These folks didn’t just talk about taking to the streets in their thousands, they did it…with a vengeance! In the 80’s in Japan their entire economy melted down, basically…and they still haven’t recovered. Comparing their ongoing economic troubles to our own is like comparing a tidal wave to choppy seas. There were vast political and economic upheavals in the UK before and during Margret Thatchers reign that caused a lot of unrest and disconnection with the population. And, again, as others have explained, here in the good ole USA we’ve seen MUCH worst turmoil in my own life time (not to mention my folks) than we are seeing today. Some day just sit down and think about the amount of change that has happened in this country in just the last 60 years…and what that change really meant in terms of unrest and displacement and disconnection from what they always knew for the people living during those times. Bad as all this looks to you young folks, it’s really on par with the what happened under Bush II…and nothing like the upheavals under Carter, Reagan, Johnson, Kennedy, or Nixon. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-whats-it-feel-like-in-times-of-political-upheaval/533439/22 "2010-03-23T15:32:38Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Well, was holding off on a post here since it’s supposed to be from non-US dopers talking about other countries. Since it really seems to be about America and how bad things are now… > \ Yeah, maybe you want to change the title of this thread and start a new one - at this point replying to the OP feels like a hijack. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-whats-it-feel-like-in-times-of-political-upheaval/533439/23 "2010-03-23T15:44:47Z")
Well I can talk about living through political upheaval in another country. I lived in Poland from 1990-1992 and saw the government go from a communist country to a democratic country. I must say it looks very different on the ground than it does reading about it in a history books. It’s scary while it’s happened because there are so many unknowns. What will happen? Will there be violence? Will there be chaos? Anarchy? I went through all this while living in a small town in southwestern Poland. If you have any specific questions I’d be happy to answer them. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-whats-it-feel-like-in-times-of-political-upheaval/533439/24 "2010-03-23T16:15:07Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > So – when things went pear shaped in _your_ country, how’d you know? The body count. The use of the military to suplement the police. The unmistakeable smell of burning tyres. Teargas > [@](#): > > How did it impact your daily life? Life was hell. The streets were battlegrounds. Schoolmates were hauled in by cops. My sister was in hiding from the government. > [@](#): > > And from what you see of news in the US, how does it compare? Hell, you people get all worked up over nothing these days. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-whats-it-feel-like-in-times-of-political-upheaval/533439/25 "2010-03-23T16:19:11Z")
**MrD** , you’re a black South African, right? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-whats-it-feel-like-in-times-of-political-upheaval/533439/26 "2010-03-23T16:26:11Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > **MrD** , you’re a black South African, right? IIRC, “coloured”. That is, mixed race. ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-whats-it-feel-like-in-times-of-political-upheaval/533439/27 "2010-03-23T16:27:19Z")
**Palo Verde** , I have some specific questions: - what were you doing there? - Poland went through what is known as ‘shock therapy’ economic reform - everything changed overnight. It had a major impact in the short run but seems to have worked out well relatively quickly - at least in comparison to other countries that did shock therapy. Still, can you tell us about how those overnight changes impacted daily life in your case? - you mention violence: who did you think (by 1990) was going to be violent? was there continued fear for SU intervention, or from domestic communists? Some other group? it’d be great if you could answer some of these questions - I might have some others too but this is all I could come up with now. Let me put in my two cents as well. I’m from Holland and that country has been a paragon for political stability for a good two centuries or so. During the 20th century, Christian Democrats were in the government for 75 straight years (longer than the communists in the Soviet Union, as political scientist Bart Tromp quipped); the three largest parties (liberals, social democrats, christian democrats) divided two thirds to three quarters of parliament between them. Then came 2002: Pim Fortuyn’s rapid political rise (he might have become PM), his assassination, the collapse of the political center, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the death Theo van Gogh, the arrest of the terrorist ‘Hofstad’ group, some (minor, very minor) rioting in Amsterdam-East, the rise of Geert Wilders, who now stands to win as many seats as Fortuyn won posthumously in '02, and might become the largest party in government doing so - the ‘big three’ will probably not even gain a majority in parliament. So that’s the macro story. Considering the calmth of the preceding decades if not centuries, I’d say this is political upheaval, and certainly a radical break with traditional politics. Personally, I feel that the ethnic uneasiness that reigns supreme in the country now makes me uncomfortable and I wish it went away. It did not cause me to move to Canada half a year ago, but I was glad to leave it behind and I don’t miss it one bit now I’m here. As far as personal involvement goes, I was in The Hague when Fortuyn was shot (in Hilversum) and as the cars went up in fire in the center of The Hague, we went down-town to check it out and see what was going on (stupid kids, that’s what we were. But I’d do it again!). There was a riotous atmosphere although most of the rioters had been dispersed. There was riot police and I remember that they did not know what they were doing. They told us to walk down one street, away from the riots. A minute later they came charging down that one street, telling us to start fucking running away. We went to a bar but it was later closed down because ‘it was on route to the immigrant neighborhoods, and people might be heading there’. So in all, it was a pretty crazy night and people really thought there might have been violence - and if Fortuyn’s killer had not been a blond Dutch guy named Van der G., which was IMMEDIATELY RELEASED, there might have been. I remember being glad that it wasn’t a Muslim. For the moment, I don’t think there’s going to be much more violence but I do worry about what’s going to happen after the elections as I don’t see how they’re going to make a coalition. I also fear for the rise of Wilders, who in my view is doing more damage to the integration of Muslims than anyone else. Also, I worry for Wilders himself - the security is pretty tight for a good reason but with all the things that he’s been saying… One bloody fool with a gun is enough to cause a lot of trouble. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-whats-it-feel-like-in-times-of-political-upheaval/533439/28 "2010-03-23T16:30:22Z")
When Trudeau brought out the army in Quebec, it made for a lot of discussion, ranging from “what to do with terrorists” to “what to do about the incarceration of innocent people” to “what to do about separation” to “what to do about the constitution?” What it did not do was lead to a sense of fear or nation-wide civil disorder. ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-whats-it-feel-like-in-times-of-political-upheaval/533439/29 "2010-03-23T19:11:06Z")
> [@Svejk\_1](#): > > **Palo Verde** , I have some specific questions: > > - what were you doing there? I was working with an overseas aid group and I arrived in January, only about 2 months after the Berlin Wall fell. Everything was so chaotic and uncertain then that no one knew what would happen next. > [@](#): > > - Poland went through what is known as ‘shock therapy’ economic reform - everything changed overnight. It had a major impact in the short run but seems to have worked out well relatively quickly - at least in comparison to other countries that did shock therapy. Still, can you tell us about how those overnight changes impacted daily life in your case? When I arrived, there was enough food, but of a very limited variety. There was bread, potatoes, sausage, carrots, parsnips, and tomato paste. Not much else. I remember one time going into a store and all they had was vinegar on the shelves. But everything was cheap and no one starved. By the summer of 1991 the ‘black market’ was in full swing. There was nothing in the slightest bit hidden about it. Dozens of cars pulled up into an empty lot in the middle of town and sold goods they had bought in west Germany. You could buy clothes, electronics and fancy food, but at very high prices. By 1992 there were several stores that featured imported goods and evey kind of food you can imagine was available. But the prices were so high that only the fortunate few could afford to buy there. People would say, “Before there was lots of money but little food, so I didn’t have much to eat. Now there is lots of food but little money so I don’t have much to eat. What has really changed?” > [@](#): > > - you mention violence: who did you think (by 1990) was going to be violent? was there continued fear for SU intervention, or from domestic communists? Some other group? It was only a few years after the Soviet Union declared martial law in Poland, so there was a fear of that. But there was also a few that a radical Polish group would take over in this time of uncertainty. We can look back and know that it was a peaceful transition, but at the time anything can happen. Hitler rose to power in a time of change, economic upheaval and uncertainty, and there was a fear that a dictator would come to power. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-whats-it-feel-like-in-times-of-political-upheaval/533439/30 "2010-03-23T19:18:26Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > **MrD** , you’re a black South African, right? > [@John\_Mace](#): > > IIRC, “coloured”. That is, mixed race. Yeah, Coloured. Not Black, which here generally means someone who traditionally speaks a Bantu language as mother tongue. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-whats-it-feel-like-in-times-of-political-upheaval/533439/31 "2010-03-23T19:22:40Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Yeah, Coloured. Not Black, which here generally means someone who traditionally speaks a Bantu language as mother tongue. OK, now I’m confused. Aren’t there lots of people of mixed race who speak a Bantu language as mother tongue? Is the “mixed race” thing wrong? BTW, do I get extra credit for spelling “coloured” right? 😉 I notice you capitalized it, though, which is not the general convention in the US, so I guess that’s a demerit. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-whats-it-feel-like-in-times-of-political-upheaval/533439/32 "2010-03-23T19:26:54Z")
> [@Palo\_Verde](#): > > It was only a few years after the Soviet Union declared martial law in Poland, so there was a fear of that. But there was also a few that a radical Polish group would take over in this time of uncertainty. We can look back and know that it was a peaceful transition, but at the time anything can happen. Hitler rose to power in a time of change, economic upheaval and uncertainty, and there was a fear that a dictator would come to power. Hey, didja hear the one about the Polish dicator? When he came to power, he took over all the **newspapers!** 😃 ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-whats-it-feel-like-in-times-of-political-upheaval/533439/33 "2010-03-23T22:35:09Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > And from what you see of news in the US, how does it compare? Well in a sociopolitical sense it’s been pretty smooth sailing on this side of the puddle since Federation. Yet we seem to have gone through most of the same divisive issues that the US have; from slavery, constitutional crisis, race relations, unpopular wars, sectarian/secular education, gun control, isolationalism v engagement, abortion, universal health care etc and all without a Bill of Rights. We just seem to be able to do it without resorting to ideological trench warefare with or without lethal weaponry. The very notion of speculation of there being a right wing coup d’etat over some minor reforms to US healthcare? _Batrachomyomachia_ ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-whats-it-feel-like-in-times-of-political-upheaval/533439/34 "2010-03-24T11:16:07Z")
Living in Pakistan. Very interesting times. Roadblocks become a common fact life, they are everywhere. There are armed policemen everywhere and supplanted by soldiers on occassion. To enter nearly every public place, be it a Hotel, a Cinema, a Court Complex a sports stadium a cinema, a school, college or university, you have to go through metal detectors and are frisked and patted down. You hear about days where there is a specific threat to a certain area and avoid that, you have ads in the newspaper and on TV from the security services on what measures you can gtake to protect yourself and your family and to what should be reported to the police immdietly and how to do so. Finally, there are a depressing number of bomb blasts and some hit pretty close to home, occassionally your windows are rattled but **knock on wood** you and your family remain safe. What is the most surreal thing IMO is that you continue with your life, everything I mentioned above is background noise. You adjust accordingly ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-whats-it-feel-like-in-times-of-political-upheaval/533439/35 "2010-03-24T12:59:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > OK, now I’m confused. Aren’t there lots of people of mixed race who speak a Bantu language as mother tongue? Nope - mixed-race people usually speak Afrikaans or English. Strictly speaking, “Coloured” doesn’t map directly onto “mixed race”. It’s cultural as much as it is racial. The major components of Coloured ethnicity were set by the early 1800s, really, way before most of the interior was colonized. If someone were born of a White mom and a Zulu dad today, I wouldn’t consider them “Coloured”, just biracial. The old Apartheid government would have, but they were not known for their cultural insight. ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-whats-it-feel-like-in-times-of-political-upheaval/533439/36 "2010-03-24T13:39:42Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Nope - mixed-race people usually speak Afrikaans or English. > > Strictly speaking, “Coloured” doesn’t map directly onto “mixed race”. It’s cultural as much as it is racial. The major components of Coloured ethnicity were set by the early 1800s, really, way before most of the interior was colonized. > > If someone were born of a White mom and a Zulu dad today, I wouldn’t consider them “Coloured”, just biracial. The old Apartheid government would have, but they were not known for their cultural insight. A schoolfriend of mine has a white mother and a black father. (She was born in exile, and they returned to SA around '94.) Her parents were absolutely livid when they discovered that the school had listed her and her brother as “Coloured” in their records. (I think the school had to record “population group” because they have to report statistics on it to the Education Department.) They were understandably unwilling to have them listed in any of the traditional groups; as I recall the school ended up going with “Other”. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-whats-it-feel-like-in-times-of-political-upheaval/533439/37 "2010-03-24T14:07:53Z")
Like the man said on the radio -“Coloured _is mos 'n ou_ term, is \*nou \*Colourful” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-us-dopers-whats-it-feel-like-in-times-of-political-upheaval/533439.md?page=1)