# Nonbelievers:Would You Disown Your Child if He/She Was Religious

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonbelievers-would-you-disown-your-child-if-he-she-was-religious/562098>\
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion\
**Created:** [November 27, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonbelievers-would-you-disown-your-child-if-he-she-was-religious/562098 "2010-11-27T20:23:27Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 4

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**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\
**Post date:** [November 28, 2010, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonbelievers-would-you-disown-your-child-if-he-she-was-religious/562098/61 "2010-11-28T03:51:56Z")

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> [@fuzzypickles](#):
>
> See my reply to **Der Trihs**. 🆒  
> (In a less snarky manner), I’ll concede that my personal 0.1% is equivalent to your 0.00% – that is to say, what has been disproven to _your_ satisfaction has yet to be disproven to _my_ satisfaction. Most likely, I’ll get to where you are someday…but for now, I’ll merely follow my own path. No spoilers are necessary. 🙂

I don’t think you understand the concept of disproof. I’ve been debating this issue on line for 35 years now, and in that time I think I have come across one atheist who claims that it is possible to disprove the existence of any god. And he was clearly wrong.

> [@](#):
>
> That logic only applies to people who attempt to change someone else’s system of faith. Since I’m doing no such thing, all I’m required to do is share my own perspective, compare notes with others, and perhaps learn a little bit more about how the world works in the process.

How nice if that were true. But rational Christians inherently support the irrational ones by making it socially difficult to attack the basis of their beliefs. The rational ones believe that Jesus was the son of God, and rose from the dead, and was predicted by prophecy. The irrational ones believe in nearly every word of the Bible. How can the first set falsify the contentions of the second set? If they use logic, they will falsify their own beliefs. If they just appeal to faith, why is their faith better than the faith of the second set? Pantheism is a lot easier to support, but is even less popular than atheism.

> [@](#):
>
> Oy – that’s the problem with scientific method, right there. Scientific method initializes with a _default assumption_ that XXX does not exist. (And you know what they say about people who assume too much, right?) That’s such a downer, man.

Our downer is responsible for the computer you are typing on, so it is an upper to me.

> [@](#):
>
> Sorry, but I’m checking wikitionary as we speak, and your definitions aren’t correct. To wit:
> 
> **atheism** (plural atheisms)
> 
> 1. Absence of, or rejection of, belief in existence of a god or gods.  
> _2. The stance that a deity or deities do not exist._
> 
> **agnosticism** (uncountable)
> 
> 1. The view that absolute truth or ultimate certainty is unattainable, especially regarding knowledge not based on experience or perceivable phenomena.
> 
> - 
> 1. The view that the existence of God or of all deities is unknown, unknowable, unproven, or unprovable.\*
> 
> 1. Doubt, uncertainty, or scepticism regarding the existence of a God or of all deities.
> 
> [Note: Italics are mine]

These definitions don’t support yours. Absence if belief, remember? Active rejection is also included, so weak atheists fall under the first clause of definition 1, strong ones the second and also def 2.

The third definition of agnosticism is the popular, though incorrect one - remember dictionaries are descriptive. Now, we all agree that you can’t prove gods don’t exist in general. But if some deity came down and did all sorts of cool tricks, wouldn’t that be more or less a proof of his existence to you? If you say yes (which is reasonable) you are not an agnostic.

Some atheists like definition 3 because theists are more accepting of “I don’t know” than “I don’t believe.”

The easy way of distinguishing the concepts, and seeing that they are orthogonal, is that atheism (and theism) are statements of belief, while agnosticism is a statement about knowledge and the possibility of knowledge.

You are now enlightened.

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**Author:** ![Rhiannon8404](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhiannon8404/32/17929_2.png) [@Rhiannon8404](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhiannon8404)\
**Post date:** [November 28, 2010, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonbelievers-would-you-disown-your-child-if-he-she-was-religious/562098/62 "2010-11-28T03:52:33Z")

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> [@akennett](#):
>
> Disown them? No.
> 
> But I’d mock the shit out of their chosen stupidities.

I have a friend whose mother is like this. When my friend became a moderate Christian as an adult, her athiest mother took every opportunity to mock her. She constantly goes on about how she failed as a parent, and how could my friend “do this to her”, etc. It was pretty bad for a while there. I was embarrassed to be in the room with them when her mom was on one of her rants.

Years later she still does, though not as often. My friend loves her mother very much, and this has put a real strain on their relationship. Strangely, her mother cannot figure out why her daughter started limiting the their time together. My friend is also careful about letting her kids around her mom too much. Her mom is cutting of her nose to spite her face. Hopefully one day she will realized that the superiority of mocking her daughter’s choice isn’t worth losing time with her or her grandkids.

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**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\
**Post date:** [November 28, 2010, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonbelievers-would-you-disown-your-child-if-he-she-was-religious/562098/63 "2010-11-28T03:54:05Z")

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> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#):
>
> My grandfather disowned one of my uncles. The uncle would come over for Sunday dinner, and by the time my grandfather had finished his firsts, the uncle had polished off the seconds. Grandpa’s will was short: “I divide up my possessions four ways. I am leaving out Tim\*. This is on purpose”.
> 
> _Not his real name. I wouldn’t want anyone trying to figure out if there is a Tim Attack in North Dakota_\*
> 
> \*\*Not North Dakota. Gotcha, ya.

In the 1930’s it was common for Jewish fathers to disown daughters marrying Christians. My grandfather did not disown my aunt for doing so, I am happy to say, because his new son-in-law, while Catholic, had a far more important faith - in the Brooklyn Dodgers.  
Actually I strongly suspect my grandfather was a closeted atheist, which perhaps explains it.

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**Author:** ![fuzzypickles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9d8465/32.png) [@fuzzypickles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fuzzypickles)\
**Post date:** [November 28, 2010, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonbelievers-would-you-disown-your-child-if-he-she-was-religious/562098/64 "2010-11-28T04:21:25Z")

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> [@Voyager](#):
>
> How nice if that were true. But rational Christians inherently support the irrational ones by making it socially difficult to attack the basis of their beliefs. The rational ones believe that Jesus was the son of God, and rose from the dead, and was predicted by prophecy. The irrational ones believe in nearly every word of the Bible. How can the first set falsify the contentions of the second set?

That’s not the point. It’s not my job to actively “disprove” anyone’s faith, unless they shove my face in it. Any given Christian may be “deluded” due to his or her belief that Jesus Christ was divine – but as long as they keep their delusions under the radar, I couldn’t care less what they believe in.

> [@Voyager](#):
>
> Our downer [scientific method] is responsible for the computer you are typing on, so it is an upper to me.

Don’t get me wrong – scientific method’s extremely useful, when applied properly. But it shouldn’t be applied to _everything_ – that’s all I’m saying.

> [@Voyager](#):
>
> Now, we all agree that you can’t prove gods don’t exist in general. But if some deity came down and did all sorts of cool tricks, wouldn’t that be more or less a proof of his existence to you?

Assuming that said deity can’t be reasonably explained away as (a) an outright delusion (due to drugs/insanity/too much porn), (b) mistaken identity, or (c) the result of the NSA secretly beaming lasers into my brain…then yes, such an experience would convince me that said deity _does_ exist. However, I’ve not had such an experience – I’ve experienced subtle notions, inclinations, and other permutations, but none have been immediately identifiable as either “God” or “Not God.” At least, not yet.

> [@Voyager](#):
>
> You are now enlightened.

Cool…does that mean I can eat another cheeseburger? 🆒

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**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\
**Post date:** [November 28, 2010, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonbelievers-would-you-disown-your-child-if-he-she-was-religious/562098/65 "2010-11-28T05:43:12Z")

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> [@Bijou\_Drains](#):
>
> I think what people don’t seem to get is that people who believe in God don’t care about there being no proof that God exists. It’s not logical but that’s the way it is for them. You could show them 1,000 Nobel prize winners with proofs there is no God and it won’t sway them.

If you showed me even one person with _proof_ that the gods, as I conceive of them, do not exist, it would certainly be something to consider. I do not think this will take place, and it is a different matter altogether than there being no proof they exist, which I cheerfully concede and is indeed why I do not expect anyone else to believe as I do.

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**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\
**Post date:** [November 28, 2010, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonbelievers-would-you-disown-your-child-if-he-she-was-religious/562098/66 "2010-11-28T05:54:11Z")

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> [@Onomatopoeia](#):
>
> I get that, and I’m willing to concede that true believers don’t have the ability to see it any other way, as destructive as that is for humanity, in my opinion.

Either I don’t have the ability to see it in any other way (I think I do have that ability, or in other words that I am perfectly capable of entertaining other points of view, but find I disagree with them, at least insofar as my own faith), or else I am not a “true believer,” although I’m not sure what value of that you’re using.

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**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\
**Post date:** [November 28, 2010, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonbelievers-would-you-disown-your-child-if-he-she-was-religious/562098/67 "2010-11-28T07:05:37Z")

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> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#):
>
> I’m just being accurate in that most religious people are not would be Al-Qaeda murderous intolerant thugs anymore than that all socialists are Stalinists or all atheists have the morality of Marquis de Sade.

A basic tenet of many fundamentalist religions is intolerance.

> [@](#):
>
> What if they didn’t? Most religious people would treat their children with love and not abuse them or force them.

Strongly religious people feel like they would be being bad parents if they didn’t force their children to follow their parents’ religion.

> [@Rhiannon8404](#):
>
> I have a friend whose mother is like this. When my friend became a moderate Christian as an adult, her athiest mother took every opportunity to mock her. She constantly goes on about how she failed as a parent, and how could my friend “do this to her”, etc. It was pretty bad for a while there. I was embarrassed to be in the room with them when her mom was on one of her rants.
> 
> Years later she still does, though not as often. My friend loves her mother very much, and this has put a real strain on their relationship. Strangely, her mother cannot figure out why her daughter started limiting the their time together. My friend is also careful about letting her kids around her mom too much. Her mom is cutting of her nose to spite her face. Hopefully one day she will realized that the superiority of mocking her daughter’s choice isn’t worth losing time with her or her grandkids.

I’ve been wondering throughout this thread what the difference is between religious parents disowning their kids for being non-religious and non-religious parents disowning their kids for becoming religious. Many people on this board have had bad experiences with religious people being intolerant of their lack of religious belief, yet they would do the same in reverse?

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**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\
**Post date:** [November 28, 2010, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonbelievers-would-you-disown-your-child-if-he-she-was-religious/562098/68 "2010-11-28T16:01:22Z")

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> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#):
>
> Strongly religious people feel like they would be being bad parents if they didn’t force their children to follow their parents’ religion.

My dad was strongly religious, and in the end he didn’t feel that he was being a bad parent by not forcing me to follow his religion. He certainly had his point of view, but he became reconciled to my change of religion.

People who are going to be assholes to their children can’t get off the hook that easily. It’s not an inherent part of being religious; it’s a choice they’re making, and they can make different choices.

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**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\
**Post date:** [November 28, 2010, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonbelievers-would-you-disown-your-child-if-he-she-was-religious/562098/69 "2010-11-28T16:25:44Z")

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> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#):
>
> A basic tenet of many fundamentalist religions is intolerance.

In what sense? We may think all other religions are false but we won’t starting persecuting you or anything.

> [@](#):
>
> Strongly religious people feel like they would be being bad parents if they didn’t force their children to follow their parents’ religion.

Actually most Christians believe you can’t force someone to follow a religion-you can encourage them, goad them, whatnot but you can’t force them.

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**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\
**Post date:** [November 28, 2010, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonbelievers-would-you-disown-your-child-if-he-she-was-religious/562098/70 "2010-11-28T16:34:20Z")

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I’m religious (lapsed Catholic, vague theist), but I’d never disown a child of mine for chosing a different religion, or being an atheist or whatever. The only reason I can see for disowning them would be if they were a neo-Nazi, or a rapist/child molestor, serial killer, etc.

Or if they started rooting for the Browns, or the Flyers. THEN they are DEAD to me.

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**Author:** ![Ann\_Onimous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ea5d25/32.png) [@Ann\_Onimous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Onimous)\
**Post date:** [November 28, 2010, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonbelievers-would-you-disown-your-child-if-he-she-was-religious/562098/71 "2010-11-28T17:29:01Z")

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My great-grandfather disowned my grandmother for marrying my grandfather back in the 1940’s. Grandma was brought up Catholic: grandpa was Protestant, but did not attend church. I saw how that affected my grandma, and I am just now developing relationships with descendants of her two brothers. As a Christian, and one who believes in God’s unconditional love for me, what kind of mother would I be if I didn’t give that same unconditional love to my children?

So the answer is no, not under any circumstance.

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**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\
**Post date:** [November 28, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonbelievers-would-you-disown-your-child-if-he-she-was-religious/562098/72 "2010-11-28T17:58:22Z")

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No, I wouldn’t disown them without some pretty extreme behavior. If they chose to try to convert me, I would treat them with the same scorn I treat everyone who tries to convert me.

My mother believes she’s a bad parent because two of her children are atheists. She might believe she’s a bad parent because one of the others is an Episcopalian, but I’m not certain.

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**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\
**Post date:** [November 28, 2010, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonbelievers-would-you-disown-your-child-if-he-she-was-religious/562098/73 "2010-11-28T21:57:52Z")

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> [@fuzzypickles](#):
>
> That’s not the point. It’s not my job to actively “disprove” anyone’s faith, unless they shove my face in it. Any given Christian may be “deluded” due to his or her belief that Jesus Christ was divine – but as long as they keep their delusions under the radar, I couldn’t care less what they believe in.

Sure. But the usual response of moderate theists to the extreme ones is either a denial they exist in any numbers (quickly refuted by polling data) or a correct denial that the moderate theist thinks that the Bible is a science book. They seem to have a hard time saying why they believe in some parts of the Bible and not others. The bottom line is that this set enables the extremists to a certain extent, though they get very, very, upset by my saying so.

> [@](#):
>
> Don’t get me wrong – scientific method’s extremely useful, when applied properly. But it shouldn’t be applied to _everything_ – that’s all I’m saying.

But what is more amenable to scientific study than the origin of the universe and the causes of things? Science says nothing about the kind of god who set the ball rolling 14 billion years ago and took a powder, but any god who has said anything to us about anything can be studied - if only by his affects on the world.

Science can and has studied all sorts of nonscientific things, like what we consider beautiful. Not everything science studies involves test tubes.

> [@](#):
>
> Assuming that said deity can’t be reasonably explained away as (a) an outright delusion (due to drugs/insanity/too much porn), (b) mistaken identity, or (c) the result of the NSA secretly beaming lasers into my brain…then yes, such an experience would convince me that said deity _does_ exist. However, I’ve not had such an experience – I’ve experienced subtle notions, inclinations, and other permutations, but none have been immediately identifiable as either “God” or “Not God.” At least, not yet.

Sure, but agnosticism involves the possibility of having the experience, not the study of an experience you have had. So it seems you are not truly an agnostic, but hold what I consider to the reasonable position on this.

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**Author:** ![Invisible\_Chimp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f05b48/32.png) [@Invisible\_Chimp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Invisible_Chimp)\
**Post date:** [November 28, 2010, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonbelievers-would-you-disown-your-child-if-he-she-was-religious/562098/74 "2010-11-28T23:47:59Z")

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I can’t see ANY reason I would disown my hypothetical children, but if they became fundamentalists of any stripe, not merely religious, but fundamentalists, I would question my ability as a father. I still would NOT disown my hypothetically fundamentalist children though.

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**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\
**Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonbelievers-would-you-disown-your-child-if-he-she-was-religious/562098/75 "2010-11-29T00:16:51Z")

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I coould imagine cutting off contact for safety, or turning someone in to prevent them doing harm to themselves or others, but ‘disowning’ always seemed like a silly idea to me anyhow.

Religion by itself at worst would be something we’d argue over, and even then it would be only over them trying to convert me or the like.

Now if they started supporting Australian Rules Football, that would be a whole other story…

Otara

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**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\
**Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonbelievers-would-you-disown-your-child-if-he-she-was-religious/562098/76 "2010-11-29T00:40:41Z")

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> [@Voyager](#):
>
> Sure. But the usual response of moderate theists to the extreme ones is either a denial they exist in any numbers (quickly refuted by polling data) or a correct denial that the moderate theist thinks that the Bible is a science book. They seem to have a hard time saying why they believe in some parts of the Bible and not others. The bottom line is that this set enables the extremists to a certain extent, though they get very, very, upset by my saying so.

I don’t believe in any part of the Bible. It’s hard to have a discussion about the nature of religion if other people are going to use “religion/theists” as a shorthand for “a certain subset of religions/theists” and possibly “a subset of the ways in which those religions are practised.”

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**Author:** ![akennett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee59a6/32.png) [@akennett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akennett)\
**Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonbelievers-would-you-disown-your-child-if-he-she-was-religious/562098/77 "2010-11-29T00:42:20Z")

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> [@Rhiannon8404](#):
>
> I have a friend whose mother is like this. When my friend became a moderate Christian as an adult, her athiest mother took every opportunity to mock her. She constantly goes on about how she failed as a parent, and how could my friend “do this to her”, etc. It was pretty bad for a while there. I was embarrassed to be in the room with them when her mom was on one of her rants.
> 
> Years later she still does, though not as often. My friend loves her mother very much, and this has put a real strain on their relationship. Strangely, her mother cannot figure out why her daughter started limiting the their time together. My friend is also careful about letting her kids around her mom too much. Her mom is cutting of her nose to spite her face. Hopefully one day she will realized that the superiority of mocking her daughter’s choice isn’t worth losing time with her or her grandkids.

See, there’s a difference between mocking the religion and being stupidly abusive toward the kid. My entire family, sarcastic bastards all, walk that line all the time.

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**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\
**Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonbelievers-would-you-disown-your-child-if-he-she-was-religious/562098/78 "2010-11-29T04:11:54Z")

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I am atheist and my wife and daughter are practicing Jews. I am fine with that and have no inclination to disown her for that.

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**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\
**Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonbelievers-would-you-disown-your-child-if-he-she-was-religious/562098/79 "2010-11-29T07:29:11Z")

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> [@fuzzypickles](#):
>
> (1) Christianity defines “God” as being: (a) omnipotent, (b) inherently kind, loving and merciful, and (c) if you don’t believe in God, your soul will burn in hell for an eternity of infinite suffering.  
> (2) If (a) and (b) are true, (c) cannot be true – no kind, loving & merciful God would allow such a fate to befall his children, unless:  
> (2a) God is NOT omnipotent, or  
> (2b) God is NOT inherently kind, loving & merciful.  
> (3) Since Christianity presumes _all three_ must be true, this fallacy of logic proves that Christianity is, at the very least, mistaken. Therefore, no Christian God, period.

Just in case you wonder, it is (b) that is usually refuted, but by redefining “kind, loving & merciful.” Myself, I refute (c). As far as I can tell, the concept of hell, at least as you described, is not biblical.

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**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\
**Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonbelievers-would-you-disown-your-child-if-he-she-was-religious/562098/80 "2010-11-29T07:49:42Z")

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Ummm… huh? Disown my own child for **anything** they do, however misguided? 😕 :eek:  
TBH, I wouldn’t **disown** my own child if they became a serial axe murderer. Now I’d fully support putting them in prison for the rest of their life, but I’d visit them.

Frankly, the very fact that you even think this is a reasonable question speaks volumes about your mindset, and I suspect that your religious leanings contribute to it.

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