# Nonsensical Ask Marilyn puzzle in 11/2/14 Parade Magazine column **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 3, 2014, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonsensical-ask-marilyn-puzzle-in-11-2-14-parade-magazine-column/703420 "2014-11-03T04:01:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonsensical-ask-marilyn-puzzle-in-11-2-14-parade-magazine-column/703420/21 "2014-11-04T17:14:22Z")
I couldn’t figure out what the question was asking. Specifically, it asks “what numbers to the terms represent?” In fact, however, the answer indicates that the terms all represent the _same_ number. If the question had asked me to solve for x and y so that the three terms were equal, that would have been easy. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonsensical-ask-marilyn-puzzle-in-11-2-14-parade-magazine-column/703420/22 "2014-11-04T17:52:39Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > As long as it’s stipulated that the answers to the formulas are also counting numbers, it’s simple: > > If (x÷2) is a counting number, then x has to be even. > > If (3÷y) is a counting number, y can only be 1 or 3. > > If (y-x) is a counting number, then x must be less than y. > > There is no even number less than 1, so y must equal 3 and x is therefore 2, and the answer to all three formulas is 1. The only problem is that the puzzle as it appeared in MVS’s column omitted that crucial stipulation. I’m confused (big shock, I know ;)) but why can’t y be 9 or 12 or 15… ---
**Author:** ![Palooka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/palooka/32/2902_2.png) [@Palooka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palooka)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonsensical-ask-marilyn-puzzle-in-11-2-14-parade-magazine-column/703420/23 "2014-11-04T18:20:37Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > No, because the column appeared in a Sunday supplement, not Scientific American, and “counting numbers” is a term that means exactly the same thing, and does not need to be separately defined for the benefit of the pedestrian comprehension level of the readers. Pedantry will get you nowhere. For what it’s worth, I’ve never heard the phrase “counting numbers” before and had to look it up. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonsensical-ask-marilyn-puzzle-in-11-2-14-parade-magazine-column/703420/24 "2014-11-04T20:12:16Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > I’m confused (big shock, I know ;)) but why can’t y be 9 or 12 or 15… Because 3/9 is 1/3, 3/12 is 1/4, 3/15 is 1/5…The only way to get a positive integer (‘counting number’) from 3/y is for y to be 1 (so the answer is 3) or for y to be 3 (so the answer is 1). Anything else leads to a fraction (or negative integer). ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonsensical-ask-marilyn-puzzle-in-11-2-14-parade-magazine-column/703420/25 "2014-11-04T20:15:37Z")
> [@Kamino\_Neko](#): > > Because 3/9 is 1/3, 3/12 is 1/4, 3/15 is 1/5…The only way to get a positive integer (‘counting number’) from 3/y is for y to be 1 (so the answer is 3) or for y to be 3 (so the answer is 1). Anything else leads to a fraction (or negative integer). Ah, I misread it as y/3 so that y=6 gives 2, y=9 gives 3, etc. Thanks for the correction. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonsensical-ask-marilyn-puzzle-in-11-2-14-parade-magazine-column/703420/26 "2014-11-04T20:24:15Z")
> [@Palooka](#): > > For what it’s worth, I’ve never heard the phrase “counting numbers” before and had to look it up. Millions of people reading their Sunday paper knew intuitively what it meant. It is “numbers that are used for counting objects”. Like 3, or 8, or 6,001. But not numbers like 5.38 or two-and-a-half or minus-3. The numbers children use when counting things. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonsensical-ask-marilyn-puzzle-in-11-2-14-parade-magazine-column/703420/27 "2014-11-04T20:51:13Z")
[Pssst…jtur88…](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=730342) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonsensical-ask-marilyn-puzzle-in-11-2-14-parade-magazine-column/703420/28 "2014-11-04T21:17:41Z")
> [@Palooka](#): > > For what it’s worth, I’ve never heard the phrase “counting numbers” before and had to look it up. Well, you didn’t have to look it up, because it explains it in the article, but I’ve only heard the phrase in passing too. ---
**Author:** ![Palooka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/palooka/32/2902_2.png) [@Palooka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palooka)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonsensical-ask-marilyn-puzzle-in-11-2-14-parade-magazine-column/703420/29 "2014-11-04T21:37:02Z")
I concede it was more of a “Is there some aspect I’m missing here?” search. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2014, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonsensical-ask-marilyn-puzzle-in-11-2-14-parade-magazine-column/703420/30 "2014-11-05T00:44:35Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > Millions of people reading their Sunday paper knew intuitively what it meant. It is “numbers that are used for counting objects”. Like 3, or 8, or 6,001. But not numbers like 5.38 or two-and-a-half or minus-3. The numbers children use when counting things. I use intuition with numbers, as well. For instance, if I had .999999 (with an infinite number of 9s following the decimal point) of something, I would say: “I have almost 1 of those things. I’m damn close to having 1, but just not quite there yet.” ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2014, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonsensical-ask-marilyn-puzzle-in-11-2-14-parade-magazine-column/703420/31 "2014-11-05T00:51:47Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > Millions of people reading their Sunday paper knew intuitively what it meant. It is “numbers that are used for counting objects”. Like 3, or 8, or 6,001. But not numbers like 5.38 or two-and-a-half or minus-3. The numbers children use when counting things. When spacecraft are launched, isn’t the standard countdown “T **minus** 30 seconds, T **minus** 20 seconds, T **minus** 10 seconds… \…T plus 10 seconds…”? ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2014, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonsensical-ask-marilyn-puzzle-in-11-2-14-parade-magazine-column/703420/32 "2014-11-05T02:41:41Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > I use intuition with numbers, as well. For instance, if I had .999999 (with an infinite number of 9s following the decimal point) of something, I would say: “I have almost 1 of those things. I’m damn close to having 1, but just not quite there yet.” 0.999… is exactly equal to 1. ---
**Author:** ![from\_a\_to\_z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5fc32e/32.png) [@from\_a\_to\_z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/from_a_to_z)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonsensical-ask-marilyn-puzzle-in-11-2-14-parade-magazine-column/703420/33 "2014-11-06T02:02:38Z")
> [@Ponch8](#): > > …If x and y are counting numbers (whole numbers above zero)… Well, okay. If [Math is Fun - Maths Resources](http://www.mathsisfun.com/definitions/counting-number.html) says so then it must be so. So how does someone count [this](http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/x/tomato-slice-white-18949300.jpg) quantity of tomatoes? Having been, until now, blissfully ignorant of “counting numbers”, I would have counted them as “two and a half tomatoes”. But thanks to what I have learned about the counting numbers, I could just mash the tomatoes and say “1 mess of ketchup”. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonsensical-ask-marilyn-puzzle-in-11-2-14-parade-magazine-column/703420/34 "2014-11-06T13:24:42Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I’ve never seen a strong distinction between “human logic” and “deep guess and check”. Most of the “human methods” are just a special case of guess and check that’s become familiar enough that you can recognize it quickly, and different people will have different standards on how deep is “deep”. This makes no sense to me. For instance, I do Kakuro puzzles, and unless I really, _really_ get stuck, they’re strictly ‘if-then’ all the way through. I’m doing a _proof_, just not writing down the steps. If that ain’t logic, I don’t know what is. And even when I get to a place where I’m stuck, a square might have two different possibilities. I can take one of those possibilities, and either finish the puzzle by if-then logic assuming that possibility, or if-then my way to a contradiction. And one does this sort of thing in mathematical proofs _all the time_. So to me, the implication of what you’re saying is that mathematics is no more than ‘deep guess and check.’ I think we have _reductio ad absurdum_ at this point. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonsensical-ask-marilyn-puzzle-in-11-2-14-parade-magazine-column/703420/35 "2014-11-06T13:30:58Z")
> [@from\_a\_to\_z](#): > > Well, okay. If [Math is Fun - Maths Resources](http://www.mathsisfun.com/definitions/counting-number.html) says so then it must be so. So how does someone count [this](http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/x/tomato-slice-white-18949300.jpg) quantity of tomatoes? Having been, until now, blissfully ignorant of “counting numbers”, I would have counted them as “two and a half tomatoes”. But thanks to what I have learned about the counting numbers, I could just mash the tomatoes and say “1 mess of ketchup”. Counting numbers are also called _whole numbers_ (OK, the set of whole numbers also includes zero, but aside from that), and you use them to count whole things. What you’re looking for is the thing you just used when you said ‘two and _a half_ tomatoes’ - _fractions_. That’s what you use to count parts of whole things. Or you can mash up the tomatoes, but you need to add a few things to get ketchup. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonsensical-ask-marilyn-puzzle-in-11-2-14-parade-magazine-column/703420/36 "2014-11-06T13:31:31Z")
I think Chronos is specifically talking about Sudoku. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonsensical-ask-marilyn-puzzle-in-11-2-14-parade-magazine-column/703420/37 "2014-11-06T16:09:00Z")
What I was saying applies equally well to sudoku or to kakaru. And it looks like **RTFirefly** is saying the same thing I did, so I’m not sure where the lack of understanding is. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonsensical-ask-marilyn-puzzle-in-11-2-14-parade-magazine-column/703420/38 "2014-11-06T17:27:19Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > What I was saying applies equally well to sudoku or to kakaru. And it looks like **RTFirefly** is saying the same thing I did, so I’m not sure where the lack of understanding is. OK, now I’m _really_ confused about what you meant. Because there’s little if any similarity in my mind between ‘deep guess and check’ and an if-then proof. In ‘deep guess and check,’ you make a guess and see where it leads you, until either it works out or you trip over your own trail. In the if-then proof, you’re not assuming anything except what’s known. In a Kakuro puzzle, if I’ve got a two-square row that sums to 17, restricting the potential values of those two squares to 8 and 9 isn’t guessing; it’s a direct implication. And if I’ve got an 8 or a 9 in one of the crossing columns, then I can fill in those two squares without any guesswork. And when I’m working on a Kakuro puzzle, that generally holds all the way through: no guessing, just ‘given what I already know, I can with certainty restrict the allowable values for this square in the following manner.’ ---
**Author:** ![Bmerazi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c0e974/32.png) [@Bmerazi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bmerazi)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonsensical-ask-marilyn-puzzle-in-11-2-14-parade-magazine-column/703420/39 "2014-11-06T22:53:10Z")
> [@Kamino\_Neko](#): > > Because 3/9 is 1/3, 3/12 is 1/4, 3/15 is 1/5…The only way to get a positive integer (‘counting number’) from 3/y is for y to be 1 (so the answer is 3) or for y to be 3 (so the answer is 1). Anything else leads to a fraction (or negative integer). But the question doesn’t say (x/2) and (3/y) are positive counting numbers. It says x and y are positive counting numbers. Therefore, the possibilities are endless and thus the terms represent??? ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2014, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonsensical-ask-marilyn-puzzle-in-11-2-14-parade-magazine-column/703420/40 "2014-11-07T02:00:03Z")
> [@Bmerazi](#): > > But the question doesn’t say (x/2) and (3/y) are positive counting numbers. It says x and y are positive counting numbers. Therefore, the possibilities are endless and thus the terms represent??? Well, (x-y) represents the set of integers. X/2 represents positive multiples of 1/2, which could be useful in some cases in quantum mechanics. Not sure there’s much else to say about 3/y. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonsensical-ask-marilyn-puzzle-in-11-2-14-parade-magazine-column/703420.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nonsensical-ask-marilyn-puzzle-in-11-2-14-parade-magazine-column/703420.md?page=3)