# Noonan is in rare form (commenting on WI and other things) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 8, 2012, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noonan-is-in-rare-form-commenting-on-wi-and-other-things/624462 "2012-06-08T03:11:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noonan-is-in-rare-form-commenting-on-wi-and-other-things/624462/61 "2012-06-13T13:01:50Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I still wouldn’t piss on her. Well, _I_ would. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noonan-is-in-rare-form-commenting-on-wi-and-other-things/624462/62 "2012-06-13T15:02:39Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > DT, you’re a fool. > > Conservatives want people to be able to make their own decisions, but they also want those people to be responsible for the results of those divisions. You and every other lib are apparently incapable of understanding that. I cannot think of a single example of conservative responsibilty taking. They must exist, I’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noonan-is-in-rare-form-commenting-on-wi-and-other-things/624462/63 "2012-06-13T16:45:31Z")
“Mistakes were made” - Ronald Reagan Well, sorta kinda. ---
**Author:** ![nate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nate/32/13085_2.png) [@nate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nate)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noonan-is-in-rare-form-commenting-on-wi-and-other-things/624462/64 "2012-06-13T16:47:35Z")
> [@Library\_Boy](#): > > Depends on the rules of your pension. > > In my city workers can retire as young as 55 (with 30 years) at 100% of their highest ever salary. At those rules, they need to be contributing more than 9%, or the system goes broke, which it is doing. Maybe so, but changing the rules after someone has been in the system and making plans for a certain pension is not a good way to resolve this. If it only effected new employees, I could stomach that. Otherwise, it’s king of like agreeing to work for a certain salary and then being short-changed when your paycheck arrives. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noonan-is-in-rare-form-commenting-on-wi-and-other-things/624462/65 "2012-06-13T16:55:24Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I cannot think of a single example of conservative responsibilty taking. They must exist, I’m sure. They’re very big on _other_ people taking responsibility, though. After all, conservatives are always right and other people are always wrong. Those wrong people refuse to own up, which is just infuriating. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noonan-is-in-rare-form-commenting-on-wi-and-other-things/624462/66 "2012-06-13T17:01:32Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > _Human beings in general_ are poor judges of their own collective self interest. If you are looking for a race of superhumans to descend from space so they can become schoolteachers, you are in for a long wait. Oh, great. Nuns From Outer Space. They probably really _would_ have Eyes in the Back of Their Heads. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noonan-is-in-rare-form-commenting-on-wi-and-other-things/624462/67 "2012-06-13T17:24:09Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > _Human beings in general_ are poor judges of their own collective self interest. No they are not. You’re wrong. In fact, the numbers Terr cites are perfectly rational. I don’t think Terr understands they’re BOTH rational, though, just as I don’t think you do, but you two misunderstand different sides of the equation. If paying union dues is voluntary, it’s rational to not pay them, because your individual decision to not pay them makes little difference. But if put to a vote just among themselves, the teachers would, without any doubt whatsoever, vote to impose union dues by an overwhelming majority, because it is rational to do so; the decision to make everyone pay eliminates the free rider problem. This is really, really basic economics. Like, second-year stuff, at most. Prisoner’s Dilemma stuff. **What is perfectly rational to do if you are acting as an individual can be the exact opposite of what is perfectly rational to do if you know you are acting as a collective**. If the ability to act as a collective was taken away from the teachers, it was inevitable most would choose to abandon paying union dues; it makes no sense, when they are forced to act individually, to do otherwise. But if they were allowed to make a decision as a group, they’d vote to impose union dues, I would bet by a margin of five to one, at least. Both decisions are perfectly sensible. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noonan-is-in-rare-form-commenting-on-wi-and-other-things/624462/68 "2012-06-13T17:58:11Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > “Mistakes were made” > > - Ronald Reagan > > Well, sorta kinda. Trading Sammy Sosa. ---
**Author:** ![Library\_Boy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/cab0a1/32.png) [@Library\_Boy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Library_Boy)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noonan-is-in-rare-form-commenting-on-wi-and-other-things/624462/69 "2012-06-13T19:23:34Z")
> [@nate](#): > > Maybe so, but changing the rules after someone has been in the system and making plans for a certain pension is not a good way to resolve this. If it only effected new employees, I could stomach that. Otherwise, it’s king of like agreeing to work for a certain salary and then being short-changed when your paycheck arrives. I might agree with that on the payout, but do you think the contribution amount can never be changed for the entire time the employee works there? Does that apply to taxes also? ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noonan-is-in-rare-form-commenting-on-wi-and-other-things/624462/70 "2012-06-14T01:02:20Z")
> [@Rand Rover](#): > > Conservatives like humans so much that we are willing to let them make their own decisions Can they decide on progressive taxation, appropriation of privately owned property in the public interest, government regulations on industry to prevent environmental degradation, the terms of their manager’s contract, the system through which their representatives in government are elected, whether corporations are people and whether campaign donations are speech and to contribute towards the purchase and operation of a worker owned factory? Edit: > [@RickJay](#): > > Prisoner’s Dilemma stuff. Also relevant would be hyperbolic discounting and the tragedy of the commons (which Der Trihs was alluding to, in a way). ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noonan-is-in-rare-form-commenting-on-wi-and-other-things/624462/71 "2012-06-14T01:05:35Z")
Including decisions on whether or not to need major health care, too? :D: No, the “freedom” they bleat about is the freedom to make the rest of us pay for it instead of themselves. Just as the “freedom” they bleat about in almost any area is essentially the freedom to impose on the rest of us. But they still claim it’s _taking_ responsibility, when it’s really avoiding it. ---
**Author:** ![nate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nate/32/13085_2.png) [@nate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nate)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noonan-is-in-rare-form-commenting-on-wi-and-other-things/624462/72 "2012-06-14T20:46:43Z")
> [@Library\_Boy](#): > > I might agree with that on the payout, but do you think the contribution amount can never be changed for the entire time the employee works there? Does that apply to taxes also? Forcing the employee to increase his contribution amount for the same benefit equates to a cut in pay, so I would expect the employee to have a big gripe about that. Taxes are beyond the responsibility of the employer. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noonan-is-in-rare-form-commenting-on-wi-and-other-things/624462.md?page=3)