# Noone is born atheist **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 20, 2008, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049 "2008-12-20T07:03:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/221 "2008-12-25T03:50:07Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > To an atheist they mean nothing, but to a believer, they are the Word of God. Not all believers. Unfortunately, even those who believe the Bible is the Word of God, can’t agree on what it means. That doesn’t give it, a lot of credibility. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/222 "2008-12-25T04:06:25Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > According to Websters Pro Version, the word ‘religion’ simply means ‘to tie up, tie back, hold fast.’ > > Many believers and persons of faith, myself included, have nothing to do with religion. I would argue that more believers than would say so themselves are religious, but then my personal definition of religion allows for a religion of one. Many believers certainly have nothing to do with organised religion, but that rules or set rituals are kept by one person rather than many doesn’t, to me, mean they are less religious. > [@](#): > > It is difficult to communicate anything to non-believers about one’s _personal_ relationship with God and Christ when non-believers, by definition, refuse to accept that God and Christ exist, which is understandable, if ridiculous, since they haven’t had any interaction with either one. I don’t think this fully works. Firstly, it would make more sense to say that the “ridiculous” behaviour would be to refuse to accept God and Christ might exist; as you yourself say later, if not knowing of them personally is grounds for not being able to refute them, then it’s likewise not grounds enough to accept them, either; logically it should follow that a person who knows nothing about a god should be neutral on the subject of it, refusing both to accept its existence and refusing to deny. Agnosticism, IOW. Secondly, personal experience isn’t necessarily required to understand something. For one thing, that would mean that no doctor or psychiatrist should be treated as knowledgeable unless they have had all the conditions they treat themselves. Likewise, as has already been suggested, this would mean that you are unqualified to talk about atheism, and I wouldn’t claim that. But perhaps most importantly, you don’t need personal, first-hand experience to be qualified to talk on something if you have other experience which contradicts it. You’re a believer; you’ve had personal experiences which support the idea that God and Jesus exist. That experience contradicts the idea that there are no gods, and so while you yourself are not an athiest, you have qualification as to talk about it. Just as a final note; you questioned why atheists were so interested in disproving God’s existence. I imagine it may very well be the same reason you’ve acted as a missionary, to some extent, though I wouldn’t like to guess at your motivations more specifically. There must be some point of your faith that makes you feel it is worth sharing with others; that having that faith is a Good Thing, or that it may lead to Good Things, or both. Or perhaps that having faith is a shield against Bad Things. It’s much the same for atheists, really. We too feel that there is worth in what we believe (or lack belief in), and so that to simply walk on our merry way is sometimes not a particulary helpful idea. And, of course, some of us are just into it for the sake of proving something. And some of us are just dicks. Pretty much the general assortment of people everywhere, really. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/223 "2008-12-25T04:44:57Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > Evening Brown Eyed Girl! Good evening to you as well, and Merry Christmas! > [@](#): > > I’m famiar with the _experience_ of not believing in something (disbelief) so I understand the feeling, and I’ve spent over thirty-four years in the missionary field listening closely to and talking with thousands of atheists. I don’t feel the need to comment on their disbelief in a negative fashion. If one doesn’t believe in something or someone - they don’t believe it - simple. Well, I’m familiar with the experience of believing in something so I understand the feeling and have spent my entire life listening to thousands of theists. I, personally, don’t feel the need to comment negatively on your belief because, well, I’m agnostic really and sort of indifferent to the idea of a divine being. Truly, I don’t understand why your faith requires you to insist such exists. It’s your faith (not knowing, but believing) that should be your rock, but why is it so important to preach your faith to others who may not even care or have their own set of beliefs separate from yours. Why is it so important that you be right and infallible? > [@](#): > > The difference between most atheists and me is that they appear to feel the need to disprove God’s existence. Why? Why not just ignore the whole thing and go one their merry way? Why look with derision upon those who do believe in God and Christ? There are many things I don’t believe, including quite a few to do with faith-based issues, but I don’t look down upon those who believe differently than I do. Have you ever considered that the reason atheist feel the need to enlighten you on the subject of God’s non-existence is because you seem to feel the need to enlighten them on the opposite. I’ve not seen even militant atheists relate every minutiae of their lives to the fact that there’s no God, but I see Christians do the opposite all the time. Additionally, as a missionary, you are on a crusade to sell your faith to people who may already have their own, and/or have no use for yours. Atheists, by and large, don’t actively recruit people. As deluded as they may think you are, they really don’t seem to care much if you’d just keep it to yourself, but you don’t. You (collectively, religious people) just won’t leave well enough alone and at this point, it just seems to me like you’re poking bee hives with short sticks. At some point, somebody’s going to get stung. > [@](#): > > I’ll leave you to decide how _experienced_ I am in understanding atheism and in accepting as valid the fact that you don’t believe. Honestly, since you’ve apparently never experienced atheism firsthand, I don’t believe you can truly understand why atheists assert you are so deluded. If you do understand what they’re all about, then you must not care that they are not interested in treating God as any other than a fiction. At that point, it’s safe to assume that you feel that your belief is superior to their non-belief. That tends to rub people the wrong way. As for my beliefs, I think religious faith is a safety net for people who enjoy the comfort of knowing that there’s something “bigger than they are” and there’s a reason for all that happens. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that so long as you treat it as a strictly \*\*personal \*\* thing and refrain from inflicting it on others. Share it amongst yourselves, but allow people to “come to God” or go on to Pastafarianism on their own without your influence or Jesus peddling. But then I’m an agnostic, so I don’t really feel the need to _prove_ anything. Whatever floats your boat, is my motto. Just don’t expect me to jump on board or even be all that impressed by your flotilla. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/224 "2008-12-25T09:03:00Z")
Reverent Threshold and Brown Eyed Girl, What if I told you that I don’t exist, that this discussion never took place, and that you were both delusional to think it did. Would you refute that statement? Why? How would you _prove_ that I exist. By this forum? What if I don’t believe this forum exists (assuming I were in existance to do that)? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/225 "2008-12-25T10:54:40Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > Reverent Threshold and Brown Eyed Girl, > > What if I told you that I don’t exist, that this discussion never took place, and that you were both delusional to think it did. Would you refute that statement? Why? How would you _prove_ that I exist. By this forum? What if I don’t believe this forum exists (assuming I were in existance to do that)? The sum of my evidence that you exist would be that I recall your posts here. As far as evidence goes, it’s not fantastic; I could say that other people have referenced you in posts, but then that relies upon my experience of \*their \*posts existing, which isn’t much better. Moreover, it’s quite possible that even if my recollection is exactly correct, that “you” are not who I think you are, either because i’ve misunderstood some of the things you’ve said, or because we have different definitions of the words we use, or because you’re lying (just to be clear, i’m not saying you are, just pointing out that it is in theory a possibility). So would I agree that I was delusional to think you existed? For the most part, no. In general, again from my own personal experience, i’ve never imagined a conversation on these boards up out of whole cloth, but that relies upon the idea that I am not so immensly delusional that i’m imagining the whole thing and can’t tell. Similarly, i’ve never been told that I am delusional or am having delusions, which at least allows me to try and compensate from outside sources. So really I would say that I do not believe I am delusional (and that you’re a delusion); and if I am, it is quite possibly to such an extent that it doesn’t really matter what I think. How would I prove that you exist? Well, it’s my experience that a post on a message board is composed by a person. You’re too well spoken (well typed?) to be a chatbot of some kind. And, again, other posters are reacting as though you exist, and existing in the same format as I think you are. So really my proof would be quite nebulous; I really don’t have any way of proving you exist to hand, and while alternate options are in my view unlikely, it’s certainly far from impossible, and that’s assuming my personal experience is exactly correct, which again is unlikely. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/226 "2008-12-25T11:32:07Z")
With respect, Revenent Threshold, by your own reasoning, it’s far more likely that I don’t exist than that God and Christ don’t exist. I’ve been healed by God (several times), I’ve been used to heal others by God, I’ve been spoken to by God - many times. I’ve wept at Jesus’ feet in a place not of this world, and have felt His Hand upon my head - more than once. I know and love God and Christ and am led by The Holy Spirit, a Force so powerful that His Presence in my life is unmistakable. Every sense I have (not simply the physical five) is filled by HIM and He directs my steps always. I’ve seen angels of both darkness and Light, I could go on and on and on… If you were me, if you’d lived my life and had my experiences, would you not believe as I do? I think you would. By the way, I didn’t volunteer to be a missionary, I was drafted, so to speak, although I’d certainly volunteer now! You appear to be a rational man, do you honestly believe that something as complex as the computer you are typing on just - Pshew! - came into existance without a designer, programmer, electricity, etc? No? Of course it didn’t. Intelligent design _always_ has an Intelligent Designer. The natural order of things is devolution not evolution. I don’t need you to believe that God exists because I already _know_ that He does. I attempt to share this with you because I believe your life depends on it and that’s why ALL Christians are told to **‘Preach the Good News of the Kingdom throughout all the inhabited Earth for a witness to the nations - and then the end will come.’** That would be the end of this system, with a new and improved model on the way. 😉 - Jesse. P.S. If God does not exist - neither do I. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/227 "2008-12-25T11:38:35Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > The experiences are my own. The quotes are from The Bible. - Jesse. If the quotes are coming from the bible and you’re talking to god, it has EVERYTHING to do with religion. You realize that what might seem like a conversation with god is probably just your thoughts being mulled over in your mind, right? There most likely isn’t really a guy out there who is talking to you personally (as if the rest of us didn’t exist!). This is Jesse thinking about Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/228 "2008-12-25T11:44:09Z")
Kalhoun, you have no idea. I wish I could give you one moment of the time I spend with God so you would see, believe, and _know._ Love - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/229 "2008-12-25T12:10:21Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > Reverent Threshold and Brown Eyed Girl, > > What if I told you that I don’t exist, that this discussion never took place, and that you were both delusional to think it did. Would you refute that statement? Why? How would you _prove_ that I exist. By this forum? What if I don’t believe this forum exists (assuming I were in existance to do that)? Anyone – even people who don’t believe in the internet – can see your posts. You might be an elderly Afghani man who’s out for shits and giggles, masquerading as an American christian. And I’m sure if anyone wanted to bother, they could find you preaching somewhere. The same is not true (and can never be true) for the little voice in your head that you refer to as god. It is an internal thought process. I understand that you believe its really someone else talking to you, but for all the claims of god’s love for all his creations, why do you suppose he chose you over ME to talk to? That is a serious question. Why YOU? ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/230 "2008-12-25T12:15:58Z")
**"You do not have because you do not ask." YHWH.** There, GOD has just sent you a message. It’s a start. - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/231 "2008-12-25T12:21:11Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > Kalhoun, you have no idea. I wish I could give you one moment of the time I spend with God so you would see, believe, and _know._ > > Love - Jesse. You’re right. I have no idea, but neither do you. The difference between you and me is that I’m quite happy to continue searching for the answer to the Big Question. I am unwilling to settle for an unsupportable “feel good” fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/232 "2008-12-25T12:25:51Z")
Then _ask,_ Kalhoun. What do you have to lose? God _wants_ to answer your every question - Personally, but you have to play by HIS Rules. You have to _ask._ - Jesse. P.S. What, to you _is_ ‘The Big Question’? Just curious. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/233 "2008-12-25T12:31:51Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > **“You do not have because you do not ask.” YHWH.** > > There, GOD has just sent you a message. It’s a start. - Jesse. Jesse, I know this is hard for you to understand, but you’re not god. You’re not god’s spokesperson. Nor does this prove that your god concept equates to love (whatever THAT means) or greatness (or even goodness). Why should I have to ask for something that is sold as Universal Blanket Love Coverage? Why do you attach the false stipulation that I need to ask for something? And how do you know I _havent?_ ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/234 "2008-12-25T12:47:53Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Jesse, I know this is hard for you to understand, but you’re not god. You’re not god’s spokesperson. Nor does this prove that your god concept equates to love (whatever THAT means) or greatness (or even goodness). Why should I have to ask for something that is sold as Universal Blanket Love Coverage? Why do you attach the false stipulation that I need to ask for something? And how do you know I _havent?_ No, I’m not GOD. I certainly am one of GOD’s spokespersons. I am not the author of the truism ‘God is Love’ - GOD is. You have to ask because GOD says you have to ask, and it’s you who do not understand the question. GOD already knows everything (Omniscient), including what’s in your heart, and what’s in your heart will determine whether GOD answers you or not. To be fair, the rest of that Scripture is, ' **But when you ask, you must ask _believing_ that GOD is The Rewarder of the ones seeking HIM.’** You want answers only GOD can give you. You’ll need to don a little humility - one size fits all. 😉 Yours surrendering to, and trusting in Jesus - Jesse. (How I generally sign my name on boards where it’s less likely to irritate people, but I put it here so you will know up front that _surrender_ and _trust_ are prerequisites to a personal relationship with GOD. Most people get around to asking how much more of them ‘selves’ they have to give - what will it _cost_ them to follow Jesus. And there’s only one answer to that, Kalhoun. It will cost you _everything._ But it’s worth it!) Edited to add: I don’t know that you haven’t asked, but if you haven’t been answered yet, you aren’t following the instructions. God isn’t playing games but you must ask with the right intention and heart condition - which lies somewhere in the vicinity of surrender. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/235 "2008-12-25T12:55:17Z")
\*Woke up this morning feeling fine Had no religion on my mind I’ve got no instinct for faith, and I don’t think it’s odd Something tells me I don’t believe in God\* Sorry! SORRY! But the thread was at the top of the forum, and I can’t help thinking this every time I see the title! ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/236 "2008-12-25T12:57:17Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > No, I’m not GOD. > > I certainly am one of GOD’s spokespersons. > > I am not the author of the truism ‘God is Love’ - GOD is. > > You have to ask because GOD says you have to ask, and it’s you who do not understand the question. GOD already knows everything (Omniscient), including what’s in your heart, and what’s in your heart will determine whether GOD answers you or not. > > To be fair, the rest of that Scripture is, ' **But when you ask, you must ask _believing_ that GOD is The Rewarder of the ones seeking HIM.’** > > You want answers only GOD can give you. You’ll need to don a little humility - one size fits all. 😉 > > Yours surrendering to, and trusting in Jesus - Jesse. > (How I generally sign my name on boards where it’s less likely to irritate people, but I put it here so you will know up front that _surrender_ and _trust_ are prerequisites to a personal relationship with GOD. > > Most people get around to asking how much more of them ‘selves’ they have to give - what will it _cost_ them to follow Jesus. And there’s only one answer to that, Kalhoun. It will cost you _everything._ > > But it’s worth it!) I get it. Circular reasoning. I need god to prove he exists but he won’t prove it to me unless I believe he exists. Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds? Give me something I can work with. Not the same old rehashed sound bytes that pollute the air with meaningless “quotes” from the Magnificent Nothing. I talked to another Agent of god and he had a completely different message. How do I know you’re not utterly deluded and the other guy had it right? For that matter, how do YOU know? Why is his message different from one agent to the next? How do you keep track? Oh…and as far as humility goes, you might want to take a dose or two of your own medicine. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/237 "2008-12-25T13:10:52Z")
> [@Terrifel](#): > > \*Woke up this morning feeling fine > Had no religion on my mind > I’ve got no instinct for faith, > and I don’t think it’s odd > > Something tells me I don’t believe in God\* > > Sorry! SORRY! But the thread was at the top of the forum, and I can’t help thinking this every time I see the title! \*\*So, we’re into poetry now. Worshipping GOD and following Jesus isn’t a magic ‘Love Blanket’ it’s a daily struggle, but we do not walk alone. Here’s a poem from a collection of mine written some time ago. Forgive me LORD Jesus… I watch so many people Pass every test I’ve failed And in my hand hangs heavy The hammer and the nails As once again I crucify My Saviour to the cross I despise my weakness And cannot bear the loss Oh how did I come to be in Between the Grace of GOD, and sin? In dreams I run t’wards Heaven’s Gate And voices mock me, “Late, too late! The Saints have entered long ago…” A world I fear I’ll never know Where GOD resides, and angels sing And sinners like me can’t get in. Why so often do I stumble Why is it that I fall? I look inside and try to find Some reason for it all But I’m just a weary hobo Wretched as can be Who with tear-stained face Behold’s GOD’S Grace Through Christ’s blood…which sets us free. And in my hand hangs heavy The hammer and the nails And in my heart contrition For every time I’ve failed. Oh give to me that cross LORD And let me die with Thee In death I live, my life I give you Here at Calvary. Copyright 2002 - Hobo Mountain Music Jesse Leigh \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/238 "2008-12-25T13:16:52Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > I get it. Circular reasoning. I need god to prove he exists but he won’t prove it to me unless I believe he exists. Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds? Give me something I can work with. Not the same old rehashed sound bytes that pollute the air with meaningless “quotes” from the Magnificent Nothing. > > I talked to another Agent of god and he had a completely different message. How do I know you’re not utterly deluded and the other guy had it right? For that matter, how do YOU know? Why is his message different from one agent to the next? \*\*How do you keep track?[/B] > > Oh…and as far as humility goes, you might want to take a dose or two of your own medicine. You check with The Source, Kalhoun, as I keep _trying_ to tell you. You don’t need me, you don’t need the ‘Other agent,’ this is between you and GOD. Re: the humility comment - I’m constantly working on that along with so many other sins. - Love - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/239 "2008-12-25T13:28:40Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > With respect, Revenent Threshold, by your own reasoning, it’s far more likely that I don’t exist than that God and Christ don’t exist. > > I’ve been healed by God (several times), I’ve been used to heal others by God, I’ve been spoken to by God - many times. I’ve wept at Jesus’ feet in a place not of this world, and have felt His Hand upon my head - more than once. I know and love God and Christ and am led by The Holy Spirit, a Force so powerful that His Presence in my life is unmistakable. Every sense I have (not simply the physical five) is filled by HIM and He directs my steps always. I’ve seen angels of both darkness and Light, I could go on and on and on… > > If you were me, if you’d lived my life and had my experiences, would you not believe as I do? I think you would. The problem with this argument is that while i’m perfectly happy to accept your word for it on this, by that very token I must accept the word of all people who claim to have religious experiences of this manner. Just as you are convinced you have experienced things which can only be attributed to the actions of the Christian Trinity, so too are there people who are convinced they have experienced Allah at first hand, or a hint of Buddhist enlightenment. Even within Christianity a a whole, there are people with wildly different ideas of what being a Christian means, what Jesus stands for, and what the task of Christians is, and they too are convinced they have felt their particular idea of God acting upon the world or upon them. So we are left with a problem. If I must take your word, then I am just as obliged to take everyone else’s word too, and they’re contradictory. There’s a few solutions to this puzzle. Firstly, that all the people except the correct people are liars; they haven’t had religious experiences at all. From my perspective, this is still problematic, as I still have no way of knowing who is right - and, logically, most people are likely to be wrong and I shouldn’t take their word. I also don’t believe that that many people are true liars about what they have experienced. The second solution is that all the people except the correct people are mistaken; they haven’t had a true religious experience, but they honestly believe they have done. Again, it makes sense for me to not take their word, because it is likely they are honestly misled through no fault of their own. Too, a religious person who has had experiences such as this should not accept them at face value, since it has been shown that people can easily be misled by these things. The third solution is that all these people have had true experiences, but misunderstood the source - that is, Christians, Jews, Muslims and so on who all claim they have experienced their gods are correct in that they have done so, but in fact what they all felt was one god; for example, the Christian God. Now, this solution is the best one when it comes to me taking people’s word, because it is the one that allows for the most people to be correct about having had a religious experience. However, while it means I should be more willing to take their word, it also suggests I should not be willing to take their word as to it being the work of their particular deity - for example, if this hypothesis were so, it would be more reasonable to assume you were correct in that you have had a religious experience, but it would not be reasonable to assume you were correctly interpreting it as being the work of the Trinity. This is the problem with the argument from personal experience; everyone else has personal experiences too, and they’re often contradictory. What means I should take your particular experiences as being absolutely accurate and representative of truth over everyone elses? And, if they are wrong, surely that implies that you may be, as well? > [@](#): > > By the way, I didn’t volunteer to be a missionary, I was drafted, so to speak, although I’d certainly volunteer now! Well, you volunteered to be drafted, if that makes sense. 😉 > [@](#): > > You appear to be a rational man, do you honestly believe that something as complex as the computer you are typing on just - Pshew! - came into existance without a designer, programmer, electricity, etc? No? Of course it didn’t. Intelligent design _always_ has an Intelligent Designer. The natural order of things is devolution not evolution. Are we getting into evolution vs. intelligent design? > [@](#): > > I don’t need you to believe that God exists because I already _know_ that He does. I attempt to share this with you because I believe your life depends on it and that’s why ALL Christians are told to **‘Preach the Good News of the Kingdom throughout all the inhabited Earth for a witness to the nations - and then the end will come.’** That would be the end of this system, with a new and improved model on the way. 😉 - Jesse. That would kind of be my point - you’re spreading what you believe because you honestly think that in doing so you’re helping other people out. As a person who believes that in some cases, it is well worth defending or sharing an idea if that idea has considerable merit, surely you can sympathize with that particular goal from atheists, too? > [@](#): > > P.S. If God does not exist - neither do I. I’d wager that depends. But I have an odd idea of personal identity anyway, and that’s another debate entirely. 😉 Merry Christmas, by the way! ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/240 "2008-12-25T13:35:24Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > So, we’re into poetry now. Opps! No, I don’t have any talent for poetry, I fear. That was intended as a spoof of “I’m Into Something Good,” by Herman’s Hermits. As previously mentioned in this thread, their lead singer was Peter Noone; hence the allusion to the thread title: “Noone is born atheist?” Okay, it was pretty bad. Again, I apologize for a transcendently feeble joke. I guess I’ve got the Christmas sillies. Too much nog in my egg last night, I reckon. Sorry for the nonsensical hijack. Carry on with the theological debate, by all means. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049.md?page=13)