# Noone is born atheist **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 20, 2008, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049 "2008-12-20T07:03:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/241 "2008-12-25T14:23:33Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > With respect, Revenent Threshold, by your own reasoning, it’s far more likely that I don’t exist than that God and Christ don’t exist. > > I’ve been healed by God (several times), I’ve been used to heal others by God, I’ve been spoken to by God - many times. I’ve wept at Jesus’ feet in a place not of this world, and have felt His Hand upon my head - more than once. I know and love God and Christ and am led by The Holy Spirit, a Force so powerful that His Presence in my life is unmistakable. Every sense I have (not simply the physical five) is filled by HIM and He directs my steps always. I’ve seen angels of both darkness and Light, I could go on and on and on… > > If you were me, if you’d lived my life and had my experiences, would you not believe as I do? I think you would. I understand the power of such experiences. You must decide the meaning of those experiences and choose a path for yourself. That’s as it should be. Please keep in mind that we all still have much to learn. As powerful as those experiences are they are still filtered and interpreted through your own unique consciousness. There is a margin of error. > [@](#): > > \The natural order of things is devolution not evolution. could you elaborate a bit. > [@](#): > > I don’t need you to believe that God exists because I already _know_ that He does. I attempt to share this with you because I believe your life depends on it and that’s why ALL Christians are told to **‘Preach the Good News of the Kingdom throughout all the inhabited Earth for a witness to the nations - and then the end will come.’** That would be the end of this system, with a new and improved model on the way. 😉 - Jesse. > > P.S. If God does not exist - neither do I. I understand the need and desire to share something we feel is positive and important with others. The world certainly needs more people putting forth a strong positive effort. There’s is however, a part you may not have considered. I assume you believe the truth will set us free. So do I. I also believe the process by which we discover the truth includes dialog and confrontation {hopefully peaceful and respectful} with those who see truth differently. In the course of all that , with a desire to learn and understand, our own vision of exactly what the truth is can be improved. Sharing our own vision of the truth and it’s freeing power with others is often a give and take proposition where the participants both learn something from the other. We must be prepared to let go of preconceived notions and not let semantics and terminology get in the way. One minor example, I have a book called Jesus and Buddha, the parallel sayings. In it the author does a side by side comparison of what Buddha taught and what Jesus taught. It’s interesting to see that while Buddha lived about 600 years before Jesus their teachings were very similar. To many Christians the idea of of Buddha and Jesus as teachers is blasphemy. Still, the similarity in their teachings is a fact and should teach us something. IMHO and reading of the NT Jesus stressed the application of his teachings over a worship of him as a person. The point is, we, humans as a race, have a lot left to learn and that would include all religions. None of them should be so prideful that they think they have all the answers. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/242 "2008-12-25T14:24:55Z")
> [@Terrifel](#): > > Opps! No, I don’t have any talent for poetry, I fear. That was intended as a spoof of “I’m Into Something Good,” by Herman’s Hermits. As previously mentioned in this thread, their lead singer was Peter Noone; hence the allusion to the thread title: “Noone is born atheist?” Okay, it was pretty bad. > > Again, I apologize for a transcendently feeble joke. I guess I’ve got the Christmas sillies. Too much nog in my egg last night, I reckon. Sorry for the nonsensical hijack. Carry on with the theological debate, by all means. It wasn’t that bad. I got it 🙂 Pretty clever considering the title of the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/243 "2008-12-25T14:45:40Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > The problem with this argument is that while I’m perfectly happy to accept your word for it on this, by that very token I must accept the word of all people who claim to have religious experiences of this manner. Just as you are convinced you have experienced things which can only be attributed to the actions of the Christian Trinity, so too are there people who are convinced they have experienced Allah at first hand, or a hint of Buddhist enlightenment. Even within Christianity a a whole, there are people with wildly different ideas of what being a Christian means, what Jesus stands for, and what the task of Christians is, and they too are convinced they have felt their particular idea of God acting upon the world or upon them. > > So we are left with a problem. If I must take your word, then I am just as obliged to take everyone else’s word too, and they’re contradictory. There’s a few solutions to this puzzle. Firstly, that all the people except the correct people are liars; they haven’t had religious experiences at all. From my perspective, this is still problematic, as I still have no way of knowing who is right - and, logically, most people are likely to be wrong and I shouldn’t take their word. I also don’t believe that that many people are true liars about what they have experienced. The second solution is that all the people except the correct people are mistaken; they haven’t had a true religious experience, but they honestly believe they have done. Again, it makes sense for me to not take their word, because it is likely they are honestly misled through no fault of their own. Too, a religious person who has had experiences such as this should not accept them at face value, since it has been shown that people can easily be misled by these things. The third solution is that all these people have had true experiences, but misunderstood the source - that is, Christians, Jews, Muslims and so on who all claim they have experienced their gods are correct in that they have done so, but in fact what they all felt was one god; for example, the Christian God. Now, this solution is the best one when it comes to me taking people’s word, because it is the one that allows for the most people to be correct about having had a religious experience. However, while it means I should be more willing to take their word, it also suggests I should not be willing to take their word as to it being the work of their particular deity - for example, if this hypothesis were so, it would be more reasonable to assume you were correct in that you have had a religious experience, but it would not be reasonable to assume you were correctly interpreting it as being the work of the Trinity. > > This is the problem with the argument from personal experience; everyone else has personal experiences too, and they’re often contradictory. What means I should take your particular experiences as being absolutely accurate and representative of truth over everyone elses? And, if they are wrong, surely that implies that you may be, as well? Well, you volunteered to be drafted, if that makes sense. 😉 Are we getting into evolution vs. intelligent design? That would kind of be my point - you’re spreading what you believe because you honestly think that in doing so you’re helping other people out. As a person who believes that in some cases, it is well worth defending or sharing an idea if that idea has considerable merit, surely you can sympathize with that particular goal from atheists, too? > > I’d wager that depends. But I have an odd idea of personal identity anyway, and that’s another debate entirely. 😉 > > Merry Christmas, by the way! G’morning RT! Happy holidays to you and yours too. My understanding of God and His Plan for humankind doesn’t fit into most boxes people try to put it (or me) in. In the first place, **while I believe in a Triune God, I don’t believe in the Trinity** as it is taught by almost all Christian churches. The Bible tells us that **God writes His Laws on the hearts of ALL people.** We also read that **Christ died once for ALL men.** We are ALL on a journey which will culminate in our being ' **Transformed into the Image of Christ.’** We know that **‘Jesus is a Perfect Reflection of The Father.’** **The ‘race’ we run, the ‘path we walk’, and our ‘walk with God’ is done on an individual basis.** I’m not a universalist and don’t believe that all paths lead to the top of the mountain. However, since **God ‘searches the hearts of ALL men’** I consider it perfectly feasible that God talks to each of us in the way we can best understand him, which will be affected by culture, conditioning, intelligence, spiritual maturity, and many other factors. I know that no one comes to The Father except through Jesus, but nowhere (that I’m aware of) does it say or are we led to believe that this cannot happen at The Great White Throne (Judgment Day.) I’m certain that what is permitted one person is not permitted another, and for reasons GOD doesn’t always explain. There are many things I may not do, as instructed by GOD, which others are partaking of freely. I have a job to do, I’m always being led here or there and when I get there I’m shown why, as is my husband. We’re used to living like this and can’t imagine any other way to go. I’d like to point out that neither one of us was _raised_ to follow any leading other than our own. Are you aware that Christians in Malaysia call GOD Allah? They do, simply because it’s a Muslim country and for centuries this was the only Name they knew God by. Now that they have Bibles, they should know His Divine Name, but tradition keeps them calling GOD Allah. A brother from there regularly posts on my forum, and he keeps us up to date on all that takes place there. I believe God speaks to the hearts of ALL who SEEK HIM. The Bible tells us that God first calls us to Christ, and then through Christ (and what He did for us on the cross) we are reconciled to God. The Bible doesn’t give a time frame for this nor does it say it cannot happen after death. One’s heart condition is known by GOD and it is _this_ we will all be judged by. So, since everyone’s journey is an individual walk with GOD, I don’t question the weird and wonderful experiences of others. Some are more difficult to reconcile with Scripture and with what I myself have come to know of God, but many, many, people who are not Christians are touched by GOD all the time. Ultimately, I believe, as the Bible tells us and as I myself do know, all people will be Christian. “EVERY KNEE WILL BOW” to Jesus, but nowhere does the Bible say that those whose hearts are inclined toward GOD will not be judged according to what lies therein. We are not judged for what we do not know, so if a person is raised a Muslin, or a Buddhist, or… whatever, and has no knowledge of YAHWEH, then I believe GOD will see to it that THOSE WHO SEEK HIM will find HIM. The Bible promises this. The CHURCH of CHRIST are those who believe in Him, follow Him, and keep His Commandments. We are all part of the Body of Christ if we are baptized into his death and resurrection and partake of 'The Body and The Blood on Nisan 14. Bottom line, I believe that the only people who will not be admitted into God’s Kingdom are those who don’t want to be there on God’s terms - through Christ Jesus our LORD. I do believe that there are millions of people who, after death, and when standing before the Throne of The Lamb, will say words to the effect of, “Oh, so THAT’s what really happened.” I think we’re ALL in for a few surprises. So, again, it’s the quality of LOVE in our hearts toward God, Christ, and each other that matters. I don’t believe ‘labels’ mean a thing. What one person experiences of God, another may not. We are all different parts of the Body of Christ and we all have different uses. None of this NEEDS to be contradictory. I certainly don’t profess to understand all things and revelation is only given by God. Much has been revealed to me but certainly not everything. We’re ALL wretched and cannot save ourselves. Only through Christ can we be reconciled to GOD, but my Bible says that invitation is open to ALL. I’m tired, and I’m hoping this makes some sort of sense. I’ve been answering you in between writing my daily quota for my latest novel - the last in a series of seven, so I ask your forgiveness if I’m less than articulate. I’ve been up for about 36 hours. G’night. I’ll pick this up tomorrow - God Willing. Love - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/244 "2008-12-25T14:53:32Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I understand the power of such experiences. You must decide the meaning of those experiences and choose a path for yourself. That’s as it should be. Please keep in mind that we all still have much to learn. As powerful as those experiences are they are still filtered and interpreted through your own unique consciousness. There is a margin of error. > > could you elaborate a bit. > I understand the need and desire to share something we feel is positive and important with others. The world certainly needs more people putting forth a strong positive effort. There’s is however, a part you may not have considered. > > I assume you believe the truth will set us free. So do I. I also believe the process by which we discover the truth includes dialog and confrontation {hopefully peaceful and respectful} with those who see truth differently. In the course of all that , with a desire to learn and understand, our own vision of exactly what the truth is can be improved. Sharing our own vision of the truth and it’s freeing power with others is often a give and take proposition where the participants both learn something from the other. We must be prepared to let go of preconceived notions > and not let semantics and terminology get in the way. > > One minor example, I have a book called Jesus and Buddha, the parallel sayings. In it the author does a side by side comparison of what Buddha taught and what Jesus taught. It’s interesting to see that while Buddha lived about 600 years before Jesus their teachings were very similar. To many Christians the idea of of Buddha and Jesus as teachers is blasphemy. Still, the similarity in their teachings is a fact and should teach us something. IMHO and reading of the NT Jesus stressed the application of his teachings over a worship of him as a person. > > The point is, we, humans as a race, have a lot left to learn and that would include all religions. None of them should be so prideful that they think they have all the answers. Amen! - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/245 "2008-12-25T15:03:38Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > You check with The Source, Kalhoun, as I keep _trying_ to tell you. You don’t need me, you don’t need the ‘Other agent,’ this is between you and GOD. > > Re: the humility comment - I’m constantly working on that along with so many other sins. - Love - Jesse. I can’t check with the “source”. The source resides in your head and only in your head, as I keep trying to tell you. Whatever it is that’s going on there, it cannot be experienced by anyone else. It is your thought process and yours alone. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/246 "2008-12-25T15:21:34Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > Edited to add: I don’t know that you haven’t asked, but if you haven’t been answered yet, you aren’t following the instructions. God isn’t playing games but you must ask with the right intention and heart condition - which lies somewhere in the vicinity of surrender. There you go with the lack of humility again. Next time you talk to him, ask your Magnificent Nothing how he feels about you telling people that they’re not doing it right. You’ve taken on the talents that, based on your preachy rhetoric, can only be performed by a god. You are precisely the type of christian that proves to me that you don’t _really_ believe a single word you’re saying. It’s your own personal power trip. You like the smug self-satisfaction that somehow _you’ve_ been tapped by a god substance to be the one who knows better than anyone else what I need to be doing in order to be saved. A true christian would never to presume to know more than her god substance about who’s doing what and whether they’re following the recipe or not. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/247 "2008-12-25T16:27:47Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > Reverent Threshold and Brown Eyed Girl, > > What if I told you that I don’t exist, that this discussion never took place, and that you were both delusional to think it did. Would you refute that statement? Why? How would you _prove_ that I exist. By this forum? What if I don’t believe this forum exists (assuming I were in existance to do that)? Well, I don’t mean to be flippant, but if you were telling me that in earnest, I’d ask you what you were smoking. The last time I had a conversation like that was back in my youthful pot-smoking days while sitting around the house with my friends pondering all the great mysteries (existentialism and precisely why cheese is so damn good included). Now, this was before the time of The Matrix, but our conversation were similar to, “Duuuude…what if we really \*are \*in the Matrix?” It was pretty profound and yet we laughed a lot, too. Since I’m sober and drug-free today, I say that while you may very well be lying about your human experiences (I have no reason to believe you are, btw), the most likely (read: logical) assumption is that you are indeed a living human being having a conversation over the internet with another living human being. At least half of that equation can be tangibly verified. It doesn’t really take much of a leap of physics to verify the rest and it is far more logical than anything my (or your) imagination might tell me. Why not accept your story of God? Why not accept the Wachowskis’ story of the Matrix? Because one is presented as truth and the other is presented as entertainment? Not really, but because both are produced by creative, but fallible, human beings, I choose to accept neither as an existential explanation. (Although, IMHO one has more entertainment value.) It seems to me that it must be pretty obvious to even the dullest of intellects that humans have an amazing capacity for imagination. We can create stories that touch every emotion and sometimes inspire thought about how we relate to the physical world and the people in it. We can make suppositions and find a way to prove them or justify them. If anything, the capacity of my own brain is more wondrous than any fiction or fantasy it can produce. On a related note, there is so much about the natural world that I don’t understand, but it’s the mystery that I find fascinating. I don’t need answers. It’s okay with me if you do, but don’t expect your brand of answers to speak to me. The long and short of it is that to me, it’s pointless to argue your existence. In the grand scheme of things, this conversation is not even a blip on the screen of the natural world, or even, to be even more precise, not all that significant in my own life. I am under no illusions that this conversation is going to change anything for you, either. [QUOTE=Jesse Leigh] Are you aware that Christians in Malaysia call GOD Allah? They do, simply because it’s a Muslim country and for centuries this was the only Name they knew God by. Now that they have Bibles, they should know His Divine Name, but tradition keeps them calling GOD Allah. [/quote] This I find to be the height of arrogance. You have decided that your term is superior and correct in the face of the different traditions of another people. You must be right because the bible tells you, huh? So their books and oral traditions must certainly be fiction because we can’t both be right. A reasonable person would consider that they could, just as easily as the next person, be wrong or misinterpreting things. A compassionate person would realize that we don’t have to agree on matters of faith because it’s highly personal and self-directed. > [@](#): > > I believe God speaks to the hearts of ALL who SEEK HIM. The Bible tells us that God first calls us to Christ, and then through Christ (and what He did for us on the cross) we are reconciled to God. The Bible doesn’t give a time frame for this nor does it say it cannot happen after death. One’s heart condition is known by GOD and it is _this_ we will all be judged by. In that case, your efforts are, for the most part, superfluous. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/248 "2008-12-25T19:07:09Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > So, again, it’s the quality of LOVE in our hearts toward God, Christ, and each other that matters. I don’t believe ‘labels’ mean a thing. > > Love - Jesse. I’ve snipped most of your post for brevities sake but let me say I appreciate it. Although I may not agree with all the details it’s very good to see someone willing to question Christian tradition in their seeking. My own journey has led me through Christianity to my own conclusions. I agree that labels don’t mean anything. IMHO those who seek love and truth are on the path regardless of any differences in terminology and religious and cultural differences. I think that’s what Jesus and others have tried to teach us. To that end, I believe that being saved through Christ means in spirit. That is, the living application of his teachings within us rather than a worship of him as a person and iconic figure. We are drawn to the light and make the mistake of worshiping the lamp is saying I think applies. Jesus said mat 25: 40"The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’ That indicates to me that Jesus was trying to teach that loving others to the fullest extent we can and striving for that, was indeed loving him and that would mean, loving God as well. I think Christianity is mistaken when it seems to diminish acts of sincere love because the name of Jesus isn’t attached. It’s a misjudgment on the relationship between grace and a living faith that is reflected in deeds IMHO. But I digress. Not meant as any criticism but merely sharing ideas. Thanks again for your post. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2008, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/249 "2008-12-26T04:56:03Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I’ve snipped most of your post for brevities sake but let me say I appreciate it. Although I may not agree with all the details it’s very good to see someone willing to question Christian tradition in their seeking. > > My own journey has led me through Christianity to my own conclusions. I agree that labels don’t mean anything. IMHO those who seek love and truth are on the path regardless of any differences in terminology and religious and cultural differences. I think that’s what Jesus and others have tried to teach us. To that end, I believe that being saved through Christ means in spirit. That is, the living application of his teachings within us rather than a worship of him as a person and iconic figure. > > We are drawn to the light and make the mistake of worshiping the lamp is saying I think applies. Jesus said mat 25: 40"The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’ > That indicates to me that Jesus was trying to teach that loving others to the fullest extent we can and striving for that, was indeed loving him and that would mean, loving God as well. > > I think Christianity is mistaken when it seems to diminish acts of sincere love because the name of Jesus isn’t attached. It’s a misjudgment on the relationship between grace and a living faith that is reflected in deeds IMHO. > > But I digress. Not meant as any criticism but merely sharing ideas. Thanks again for your post. Hello Cosmodan! My own relationship with God, Jesus, and The Holy Spirit notwithstanding, it appears that you and I agree on the spirit of Christ’s teachings. **We can do everything ‘right,’ even live our whole lives performing deeds that result in what the world would see as ‘good,’ but Jesus tells us if we performed _any_ of those deeds, let alone all of them, without LOVE, sincere and true LOVE in our hearts, then what we did is useless from his point of view.** It may not have been useless to the starving family, the orphan, or those who needed the clean water they obtained from the well we dug for them, but if we fed the family, cared for the orphan, and dug that well for any other reason than that we LOVED those people, our spiritual journey was advanced not a step, and in the eyes of God we wasted the time He has given us. 1st Corinthains 13 is my favorite chapter in the Bible because I believe it embodies the entire message of the Bible - **LOVE is everything.** To me it just stands to reason if we’re going to bring intellect into this discussion since **‘God _is_ LOVE.’** If we accept that as a truism we are left with what you and I agree upon. Peace be upon you - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2008, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/250 "2008-12-26T05:27:56Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > There you go with the lack of humility again. Next time you talk to him, ask your Magnificent Nothing how he feels about you telling people that they’re not doing it right. You’ve taken on the talents that, based on your preachy rhetoric, can only be performed by a god. You are precisely the type of christian that proves to me that you don’t _really_ believe a single word you’re saying. It’s your own personal power trip. You like the smug self-satisfaction that somehow _you’ve_ been tapped by a god substance to be the one who knows better than anyone else what I need to be doing in order to be saved. > > A true christian would never to presume to know more than her god substance about who’s doing what and whether they’re following the recipe or not. Hello Kalhoun! It’s important that you understand that all that I have told you is the _way_ to GOD is not the result of my own wisdom (such as it is), or indicative of my own success (or lack thereof) of following that _way,_ but rather I’ve told you the requirements set out by God Himself in the Bible. **You asked me why God would speak to me and not to you and implied that you had already asked your question** , which seems important to you. I only tryped out for you the instructions in the Bible. Even the angels don’t know as much as God (and I’m no angel), and we were created ‘a little lower’ than them. So, of course I don’t presume to know as much as God, let alone more. **My only purpose in continuing our interaction was to help you, if possible, to get your question(s) answered.** There was no arrogance in my heart when I typed the post you’ve quoted. I didn’t make the rules, I merely try to follow them. Were you to conclude that God does exist and that you ought to follow Christ, I wouldn’t be miles ahead of you on the ‘narrow path’ that leads to life. I’d just be a fellow traveler upon it, walking, seeking, and striving to reach the same destination. LOVE. I’m sorry if I offended you, for my intention was only to assist you if I could. What I have offered you in the way of information, I offered with love, because of love, and for no other reason. I haven’t reached the destination or achieved the goal I strive for, and when I hold up a rquirement of GOD or tell you what GOD requires of us, I am in no way saying that I have attained to it. Humankind is a mess, we all are, and **NONE of us are 'doing it right,** but many of us, you included I think, are trying to be less of a disaster. Only one Person in recorded history has lived a sinless, perfect life, and it wasn’t me. I hope you find your answer(s), Kalhoun. Again, I’m sorry I let you down in that I couldn’t be more helpful. Love - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2008, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/251 "2008-12-26T05:54:47Z")
Hello, Jesse! So, did you pick a particular flavour of Christianity (I understand there are quite a few), or do you just pick and choose whatever suits you best? ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2008, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/252 "2008-12-26T06:14:02Z")
Hello Bryan! The term ‘Christianity’ was a derogatory term applied to those who followed ‘The Way’ for the first three hundred years AD. No, I didn’t pick a particular flavor, in part because **‘GOD hates divisions and sects,’** and in part because I’d rather follow Christ than the \*\*‘Traditions of men’ \*\*and every ‘Division and sect’ I’ve ever come across is teeming with 'em. I’m not opposed to visiting any church or home where Christ is welcome, even amidst all the garbage that’s preached there is usually a gem or two of truth, and I use my sieve liberally when listening to any preacher. The irony is, as a missionary, I’ve spent most of my life in places where Christ is _not welcome_ in an effort to change that, as Christ commanded. I try to live my live in Love, Truth, and Peace. If I ever have an entirely successful day - or even five minutes exhibiting the same love as Christ did and does, I’ll let you know. I don’t ‘Pick and choose’ what to do, I leave that up to GOD and then try my best to do His Will. Love - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2008, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/253 "2008-12-26T06:21:22Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > I don’t ‘Pick and choose’ what to do, I leave that up to GOD and then try my best to do His Will. Hey, that’s great. Please don’t ever seek elected office. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2008, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/254 "2008-12-26T06:26:42Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Hey, that’s great. > Please don’t ever seek elected office. LOL! No worries, Bryan. I don’t vote for human government. I cast my vote long ago for - **‘Thy Kingdom Come.’** GOD considered man’s demand for a human ruler an act of faithlessnes, but he let man govern himself for a while just to show us why it’s a _really_ bad idea! 😉 Love - Jess. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2008, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/255 "2008-12-26T12:15:39Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > Hello Kalhoun! > > It’s important that you understand that all that I have told you is the _way_ to GOD is not the result of my own wisdom (such as it is), or indicative of my own success (or lack thereof) of following that _way,_ but rather I’ve told you the requirements set out by God Himself in the Bible. > > **You asked me why God would speak to me and not to you and implied that you had already asked your question** , which seems important to you. I only tryped out for you the instructions in the Bible. Even the angels don’t know as much as God (and I’m no angel), and we were created ‘a little lower’ than them. So, of course I don’t presume to know as much as God, let alone more. **My only purpose in continuing our interaction was to help you, if possible, to get your question(s) answered.** > > There was no arrogance in my heart when I typed the post you’ve quoted. I didn’t make the rules, I merely try to follow them. Were you to conclude that God does exist and that you ought to follow Christ, I wouldn’t be miles ahead of you on the ‘narrow path’ that leads to life. I’d just be a fellow traveler upon it, walking, seeking, and striving to reach the same destination. LOVE. > > I’m sorry if I offended you, for my intention was only to assist you if I could. What I have offered you in the way of information, I offered with love, because of love, and for no other reason. > > I haven’t reached the destination or achieved the goal I strive for, and when I hold up a rquirement of GOD or tell you what GOD requires of us, I am in no way saying that I have attained to it. Humankind is a mess, we all are, and **NONE of us are 'doing it right,** but many of us, you included I think, are trying to be less of a disaster. Only one Person in recorded history has lived a sinless, perfect life, and it wasn’t me. > > I hope you find your answer(s), Kalhoun. Again, I’m sorry I let you down in that I couldn’t be more helpful. > > Love - Jesse. I wasn’t asking for your help (but then, you _knew_ that). You’ve chosen to believe in the Magnificent Nothing, which is entirely your business. If there’s a god, no one would need your help in finding him. No mystery, no carrot dangling, no threats. No, Jesse…you couldn’t let me down because I didn’t turn to you for the answers. I don’t believe for one second you have them. With over 2 billion christians in the world, if your recipe was working, we’d all be living in utter bliss. As they say…the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome. No thanks…I’ll stick with action rather than worship. All that begging doesn’t seem to be having much effect on the state of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Bites\_When\_Provoked](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bites_when_provoked/32/18073_2.png) [@Bites\_When\_Provoked](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bites_When_Provoked)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2008, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/256 "2008-12-26T13:01:59Z")
> [@Terrifel](#): > > \*Woke up this morning feeling fine > Had no religion on my mind > I’ve got no instinct for faith, > and I don’t think it’s odd > > Something tells me I don’t believe in God\* **Terrifel** , just wanted to let you know that not only did this make me laugh out loud, it’s been stuck in my head off and on all day. Strangely, your parody is more compelling than the original song - which was catchy enough! ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2008, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/257 "2008-12-26T13:23:59Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > I wasn’t asking for your help (but then, you _knew_ that). You’ve chosen to believe in the Magnificent Nothing, which is entirely your business. If there’s a god, no one would need your help in finding him. No mystery, no carrot dangling, no threats. No, Jesse…you couldn’t let me down because I didn’t turn to you for the answers. I don’t believe for one second you have them. With over 2 billion christians in the world, if your recipe was working, we’d all be living in utter bliss. As they say…the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome. > > No thanks…I’ll stick with action rather than worship. All that begging doesn’t seem to be having much effect on the state of the world. It’s not an either or situation. One does not exclude the other. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2008, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/258 "2008-12-26T15:25:51Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > It’s not an either or situation. One does not exclude the other. You can do both, but it’s pretty obvious to me which one is more effective. It’s pretty simple to test. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2008, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/259 "2008-12-26T16:16:42Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > You can do both, but it’s pretty obvious to me which one is more effective. It’s pretty simple to test. Who is advocating worship without action? The Bible says **‘Faith without works is dead.’** The truth is the truth wherever one finds it. You may not call it ‘asking for help’ but you did ask me a question and demanded an answer. I tried to provide, not my own wisdom, but wisdom from above, since that is where you aimed your question originally, but were obviously disappointed with the answer - or lack of one. Re: the definition of insanity - quite true, but my life has been anything but repetitious, and while perhaps not entirely blissful, I think it’s evident from our respective posts that one of us has been graced with an inner peace that the other has yet to find. Have a sweet and peaceful day - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2008, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/260 "2008-12-26T16:28:13Z")
> [@](#): > > That is an arrogant, ignorant presumption on your part - and you are wrong. I can say this because I have _experience_ with The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. What you just said is supposition on your part. - Jesse. > [@](#): > > I’ve been healed by God (several times), I’ve been used to heal others by God, I’ve been spoken to by God - many times. I’ve wept at Jesus’ feet in a place not of this world, and have felt His Hand upon my head - more than once. > [@](#): > > I don’t need you to believe that God exists because I already _know_ that He does. So prove it already. You are making assertions, you clearly think these things are true, so prove it. You’re just repeating the same ambiguous dogma over and over, which isn’t going to convince anyone of anything. But you if you actually proved that it was in fact god that you thought you talked to, then it would do more to convince us than anything you’ve said here. Also realize that if you respond to this with more ambiguous bible references rather than proof then we’ll all have no choice but to think you’re either deluded or lying. Of course, right now since we don’t have any evidence to think you’re right in the first place, the default conclusion that you’re deluded or lying. > [@](#): > > Well, I don’t agree with the RCC or recognize it as Christ’s Church, but I wouldn’t disparage a _member_ of the RCC because they have the right to believe as their conscience dictates - in this arena. Yes, people can believe whatever they want. Asserting their beliefs as fact however, is quite another thing. If someone says ‘I believe that brick walls are not real, I can walk through them, see through them, and would never stay in a building with one.’ then most people would probably conclude there was something wrong with this person, especially if they refuse to prove their assertions, like just walking through a brick wall in front of other people for example. Given everything that we already know, until this person can do more than talk about their beliefs, we have no choice but to assume they’re wrong. That’s what you look like to us. You can believe whatever you want, but the instant you try to tell other people about them, they become open to both verification and ridicule. The fact that you expect your own beliefs immune from examination and ridicule is typical of religion, which has been holding a ‘Get Out of Logic Free’ card for a long time. Religion is just another idea, just another belief, and it is as open to ridicule as everything else is. I was Catholic for a long time. I was religious. I prayed, and did all the ceremonies, and everything else that went with it. I believed. But the more I thought about it, the more I examined it, the more I realized that it didn’t make sense. Prayers didn’t work, and no one seemed to care. The ceremonies were silly, and expected us to think things that obviously weren’t true (nope, it’s still a cracker). The bible was full of really weird stuff, contradictions, and things that went against what I was taught. Anytime I asked questions, no one had any answers, they just kept saying I had to believe. Anytime anyone said they had heard or felt god, it always sounded exactly like something they had heard before, or something they expected. No one had anything new, and most of them were obviously trying to shoehorn things in to fit what they wanted. People weren’t getting stuff from god, they were getting it from themselves and attributing it to the only they knew, which was god. The more I learned the clearer it was that this was how the human brain worked, and how easy it was for people to do this. How do you know it’s god? How do you know it isn’t a demon, or an alien, or something else? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049.md?page=14)