# Noone is born atheist **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 20, 2008, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049 "2008-12-20T07:03:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/301 "2008-12-27T12:09:39Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Yeah and that’s a pretty stupid name. A better name might be, “A Way.” Since you know, most people on Earth think you’re wrong. Obviously they should have asked you first. Just think of all the stupidity they could have avoided. It’s interesting that southern Christians took your advice and put it into song. Look! A Way, Dixieland. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/302 "2008-12-27T12:42:22Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > Hello Cosmodan! > > My own relationship with God, Jesus, and The Holy Spirit notwithstanding, it appears that you and I agree on the spirit of Christ’s teachings. When I studied different religions I saw a lot of things that were essentially the same but varied slightly in approach and terminology. It seemed clear to me that Jesus taught us not to let those things divide us. > [@](#): > > **We can do everything ‘right,’ even live our whole lives performing deeds that result in what the world would see as ‘good,’ but Jesus tells us if we performed _any_ of those deeds, let alone all of them, without LOVE, sincere and true LOVE in our hearts, then what we did is useless from his point of view.** It may not have been useless to the starving family, the orphan, or those who needed the clean water they obtained from the well we dug for them, but if we fed the family, cared for the orphan, and dug that well for any other reason than that we LOVED those people, our spiritual journey was advanced not a step, and in the eyes of God we wasted the time He has given us. > 1st Corinthains 13 is my favorite chapter in the Bible because I believe it embodies the entire message of the Bible - **LOVE is everything.** To me it just stands to reason if we’re going to bring intellect into this discussion since **‘God _is_ LOVE.’** If we accept that as a truism we are left with what you and I agree upon. > > Peace be upon you - Jesse. I like that chapter as well. I think one of our hardest tasks in life is sifting real love from all the things mankind often mistakes for love. My own belief system is built around love and truth being consistent guiding principles that cross the boundaries of most religions and even the non religious. I remember a story from years ago about a young man raised in a church who became a minister. He was a good man and was good to those he encountered in life. He ministered well to those in his charge. Years passed. One summer at a church camp he was struck with the realization that although his life had been dedicated to serving God and God’s people he did not have a deep abiding love for them in his heart. He had been serving out of a sense of duty and purpose , but not love. It disturbed him so much that he considered quitting his ministry because it seemed a sham. Then he realized that becoming aware of this meant that he could begin to change it and it was the next leg of his own spiritual journey. All that to say, we agree. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/303 "2008-12-27T12:48:17Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > I didn’t ‘decide’ to become a Christian. My earliest memory of the Presence of Jesus in my life was when I was three. I thought everybody ‘knew’ and ‘felt’ Jesus, which is interesting because my family are (or were, my parents are dead now) non-believers. My great-grandmother, who lived hundreds of miles from us, and whom I rarely saw was a missionary. My immediate family all thought she was crazy. I recall her reading a few stories from the Bible to my brothers, my cousin, and myself when I was around eight. > > I began going to a church when I was five, by myself. I don’t remember what kind of church it was or what I heard there, but we didn’t live there for long, we didn’t live anywhere for long, as my father was in the Royal Air Force. So, I went to churches and talked to God there. I talked with Him in the forests and in the mountains where I lived. I talked with Him pretty much everywhere - and my family thought I was crazy, so much so that my mother limited my ‘alone’ time because she didn’t want me to become ‘religious.’ She was only about eight years too late. > > While I have memories of being a year old, I don’t recall having any concept or contact with God or Christ before I was three. I couldn’t read fluently until I was five so all my information came via The Holy Spirit. > > Flame away. > > Love - Jesse. Serious question, Have you ever read “Mister God, This is Anna” Just curious. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/304 "2008-12-27T12:58:34Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > When I studied different religions I saw a lot of things that were essentially the same but varied slightly in approach and terminology. It seemed clear to me that Jesus taught us not to let those things divide us. > > I like that chapter as well. I think one of our hardest tasks in life is sifting real love from all the things mankind often mistakes for love. My own belief system is built around love and truth being consistent guiding principles that cross the boundaries of most religions and even the non religious. > > I remember a story from years ago about a young man raised in a church who became a minister. He was a good man and was good to those he encountered in life. He ministered well to those in his charge. Years passed. One summer at a church camp he was struck with the realization that although his life had been dedicated to serving God and God’s people he did not have a deep abiding love for them in his heart. He had been serving out of a sense of duty and purpose , but not love. It disturbed him so much that he considered quitting his ministry because it seemed a sham. Then he realized that becoming aware of this meant that he could begin to change it and it was the next leg of his own spiritual journey. > > All that to say, we agree. 🙂 Is it love or is it respect for your fellow man? I don’t believe the terms are interchangeable. I don’t “love” people I don’t know. I respect them as human beings and I care that they’re hurting or suffering and do what I can to help, but I don’t know them, so I can’t “love” them. I don’t think it’s wrong to help people I don’t love. A sense of duty and purpose is enough. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/305 "2008-12-27T13:10:55Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Certainly you “decided.” You’re free to to live your life any way you want. You chose this path over all others. > > Interesting background. Do you have siblings? Which route did they choose? G’morning Kalhoun. I don’t believe I did choose _at first,_ I just loved Jesus so much that I couldn’t imagine, nor did I try to imagine life without Him. Any decision I made to follow Him was not a conscious one on my part. Yes, I have siblings. I have one full brother (with a heart of gold, who’s unfortunately an alcoholic), two haf-brothers (both non-believers), one step-brother (a drug addict who OD’d when he was thirty), and a step sister who is also a drug addict. To the best of my knowledge, none of them ever were believers. Love - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/306 "2008-12-27T13:27:38Z")
> [@Fantome](#): > > Can you respond to some of the other posts directed at you, **Jesse Leigh**? > > Since you’re a follower of Christ, why do you object to being called a Christian? > > **Christianity or Christendom as it is practiced today has so little to do with the teachings of Christ that I don’t care to be ‘stuck’ with the label. OTOH, if I were, in passing, asked to express in _one_ word the expression of my faith, I might choose the word ‘Christian’ - it would depend upon who was asking, and why.** > > Who is it that sends you to different places to do missionary work? > > **GOD.** > > If you’re not interested in human interpretation (presumably because you think it’s unreliable), why should anyone believe your interpretation is reliable? > > **They shouldn’t. As I’ve repeatedly said, they should go to The Source. I seldom give my opinion on anything, but rather state what God and Christ have said. Whatever ‘interpretation’ another makes of, or takes from the information is between them and God.** > > How do you know that “NO true understanding of the Bible is possible without direct Revelation from GOD?” **Genesis 40:8, Matthew 11:25, and a number of other Scriptures testify to this truth**. Love - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/307 "2008-12-27T13:35:00Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Serious question, > > Have you ever read “Mister God, This is Anna” Just curious. No, but I’ve read _ **Dear God, This is Anna.** _ Could it be the same book? (I don’t recall the contents anyway, I read it many years ago.) If not, is there something in this book you think I should read? I’m finishing up a 5,200 page, seven-novel series, so I haven’t had time to read much in the way of fiction lately. All my reading is research and that which I encounter on my forum, here, and on other forums where I am semi-active. LOVE - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/308 "2008-12-27T13:35:12Z")
> [@](#): > > If you’re not interested in human interpretation (presumably because you think it’s unreliable), why should anyone believe your interpretation is reliable? > [@](#): > > (and Jesse replied) They shouldn’t. As I’ve repeatedly said, they should go to The Source. I seldom give my opinion on anything, but rather state what God and Christ have said. Whatever ‘interpretation’ another makes of, or takes from the information is between them and God. But you haven’t said _how a person gets to the source._ Can you expand on how this is done? ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/309 "2008-12-27T13:39:16Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Yeah and that’s a pretty stupid name. A better name might be, “A Way.” Since you know, most people on Earth think you’re wrong. Perhaps, but then, the majority is almost _always_ wrong. 😉 - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/310 "2008-12-27T13:44:26Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Is it love or is it respect for your fellow man? I don’t believe the terms are interchangeable. I don’t “love” people I don’t know. I respect them as human beings and I care that they’re hurting or suffering and do what I can to help, but I don’t know them, so I can’t “love” them. I don’t think it’s wrong to help people I don’t love. A sense of duty and purpose is enough. I think it’s duty and purpose with aspirations of love. Your take is certainly realistic. I am occasionally disturbed by those who want to be good disciples of whomever and throw the word love around to eagerly. The truth part of love and truth means we have try to be truthful about ourselves to ourselves. But I digress. Of course it’s not wrong to help people we don’t love. There is a difference between those we have long standing relationships with and a shared history and those we pass along the way. Still, I think in striving to love the approach and interaction is different. In the minister story I think the point was he realized he realized he didn’t even love those he was minister to and had some shared history with. A question. Out of duty and purpose we might feed the hungry, provide shelter to the homeless. What about giving a bit of time to a stranger who is lonely or troubled? There’s no pressing need or danger. Could those times when we go out of our way to help a stranger and reach out with compassion and consideration be called an expression of love rather than just duty and purpose? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/311 "2008-12-27T13:50:33Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > No, but I’ve read _ **Dear God, This is Anna.** _ Could it be the same book? (I don’t recall the contents anyway, I read it many years ago.) If not, is there something in this book you think I should read? > > I’m finishing up a 5,200 page, seven-novel series, so I haven’t had time to read much in the way of fiction lately. All my reading is research and that which I encounter on my forum, here, and on other forums where I am semi-active. > > LOVE - Jesse. [Mr God, this is Anna](http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mr-God-This-Anna-Fynn/dp/0345251547) is a good book about an amazing little girl’s relationship with God. Just curious. Your own story just brought it to mind. Best of luck with your novels. Care to share a brief summary of what they’re about? ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/312 "2008-12-27T13:55:52Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > But you haven’t said _how a person gets to the source._ Can you expand on how this is done? G’morning Kalhoun. I have gone to great lengths to explain how to reach GOD in detail on this thread. However, in post # 236, you called the process ‘circular reasoning’ and apparently didn’t ‘get it.’ No offense intended. Love - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/313 "2008-12-27T13:57:48Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I think it’s duty and purpose with aspirations of love. Your take is certainly realistic. I am occasionally disturbed by those who want to be good disciples of whomever and throw the word love around to eagerly. The truth part of love and truth means we have try to be truthful about ourselves to ourselves. But I digress. > > Of course it’s not wrong to help people we don’t love. There is a difference between those we have long standing relationships with and a shared history and those we pass along the way. Still, I think in striving to love the approach and interaction is different. > > In the minister story I think the point was he realized he realized he didn’t even love those he was minister to and had some shared history with. > > A question. Out of duty and purpose we might feed the hungry, provide shelter to the homeless. What about giving a bit of time to a stranger who is lonely or troubled? There’s no pressing need or danger. Could those times when we go out of our way to help a stranger and reach out with compassion and consideration be called an expression of love rather than just duty and purpose? Well, for me it would have to be a closer connection than just a reach-out to someone who’s lonely or troubled. I just can’t muster the love thang without a give-and-take on some intellectual or emotional level. I don’t think it diminishes the value of the interaction. I think compassion and empathy are key to any sort of charitable acts, but they’re not the same as love. I know this might go against the grain here, but there is a selfish component to love. If it’s not a two-way street, it’s not the real deal. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/314 "2008-12-27T13:59:35Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > No, but I’ve read _ **Dear God, This is Anna.** _ Could it be the same book? (I don’t recall the contents anyway, I read it many years ago.) If not, is there something in this book you think I should read? > > I’m finishing up (writing) a 5,200 page, seven-novel series, so I haven’t had time to read much in the way of fiction lately. All my reading is research and that which I encounter on my forum, here, and on other forums where I am semi-active. > > LOVE - Jesse. I’m sorry, Cosmodan, I made a mistake and I missed the edit window. The book I read was entitled _ **Dear God, This is Margaret.** _ That’s what I get for multitasking. I need to get back to my manuscript. Have a spectacular day, Love - Jess. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/315 "2008-12-27T14:03:39Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > G’morning Kalhoun. > > I have gone to great lengths to explain how to reach GOD in detail on this thread. However, in post # 236, you called the process ‘circular reasoning’ and apparently didn’t ‘get it.’ No offense intended. > > Love - Jesse. Great lengths? “You have to ask” and “you have to already believe” are great lengths? C’mon…you’re a writer. You’re going to have to provide more detail if you expect anyone to “follow the instructions.” Or maybe you don’t have a real answer. Maybe it’s just more smoke and mirrors because you really have no authority whatsoever in transmitting a god’s message to people. The ‘great lengths’ you went to are _no lengths at all._ ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/316 "2008-12-27T14:12:47Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Well, for me it would have to be a closer connection than just a reach-out to someone who’s lonely or troubled. I just can’t muster the love thang without a give-and-take on some intellectual or emotional level. I don’t think it diminishes the value of the interaction. I think compassion and empathy are key to any sort of charitable acts, but they’re not the same as love. I know this might go against the grain here, but there is a selfish component to love. If it’s not a two-way street, it’s not the real deal. Love isn’t one dimensional and it can be either a noun or a verb. We have **Agape** love - principled love we extend toward all humankind. We have **Phileo** love - botherly love, such as is experienced and usually shared between family and friends. Finally we have **Eros** love - the love felt and exchanged between lovers. **Reciprocation isn’t a requirement for love to be love**. If that were the case, Christ’s love for \*\*‘All mankind,’ \*\*for which he laid down His life, wouldn’t have been the ‘real deal.’ There _can_ be no **‘self’** in love. **Love is self-LESS, and that’s what makes it ‘the real deal.’** If you’d rather have a human example, I loved my mother dearly but she didn’t love me, told me so often, and died maintaining her position. I _still_ love my mother, and I miss her. My love for her is the ‘real deal.’ We don’t cry over and mourn those we’ve lost if we don’t love them. **They say that whatever makes us cry is _true_ about us, whether we like it, or believe it, or not.** I believe that’s a true statement. Agape Love - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Bites\_When\_Provoked](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bites_when_provoked/32/18073_2.png) [@Bites\_When\_Provoked](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bites_When_Provoked)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/317 "2008-12-27T14:20:07Z")
Edited: Eh, never mind. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/318 "2008-12-27T14:24:05Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > Love isn’t one dimensional and it can be either a noun or a verb. > > We have **Agape** love - principled love we extend toward all humankind. > > We have **Phileo** love - botherly love, such as is experienced and usually shared between family and friends. > > Finally we have **Eros** love - the love felt and exchanged between lovers. > > **Reciprocation isn’t a requirement for love to be love**. If that were the case, Christ’s love for \*\*‘All mankind,’ \*\*for which he laid down His life, wouldn’t have been the ‘real deal.’ There _can_ be no **‘self’** in love. **Love is self-LESS, and that’s what makes it ‘the real deal.’** > > If you’d rather have a human example, I loved my mother dearly but she didn’t love me, told me so often, and died maintaining her position. I _still_ love my mother, and I miss her. My love for her is the ‘real deal.’ We don’t cry over and mourn those we’ve lost if we don’t love them. > > **They say that whatever makes us cry is _true_ about us, whether we like it, or believe it, or not.** I believe that’s a true statement. > > Agape Love - Jesse. Sure there can be “self” in love. As the saying goes, you can’t love someone else until you love yourself. You have to feel worthy to the object of your affection so that you can receive love from them. Obsession is another word for one-sided love. Can you provide the names of the books you’ve written? You’ve piqued my interest. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/319 "2008-12-27T14:29:36Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Great lengths? “You have to ask” and “you have to already believe” are great lengths? C’mon…you’re a writer. You’re going to have to provide more detail if you expect anyone to “follow the instructions.” > > Or maybe you don’t have a real answer. Maybe it’s just more smoke and mirrors because you really have no authority whatsoever in transmitting a god’s message to people. The ‘great lengths’ you went to are _no lengths at all._ I’m sorry you think so. **You want to reach God? Get down on your knees and PRAY, Kalhoun. And MEAN it**. Is that simple enough for you? Yes, I’m a writer, but I’m not about to rewrite the Bible just because you don’t like the instructions. I really _must_ get back to work now - I have a deadline I must keep. I’ll look in on this thread tomorrow, if I’m spared. God Willing. (Yes, I know you hate that kind of expression, but either you’re talking with me, or you’re not. You decide.) Warm Agape Love - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/320 "2008-12-27T14:34:06Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > I’m sorry you think so. > > **You want to reach God? Get down on your knees and PRAY, Kalhoun. And MEAN it**. > > Is that simple enough for you? Yes, I’m a writer, but I’m not about to rewrite the Bible just because you don’t like the instructions. > > I really _must_ get back to work now - I have a deadline I must keep. I’ll look in on this thread tomorrow, if I’m spared. God Willing. > > (Yes, I know you hate that kind of expression, but either you’re talking with me, or you’re not. You decide.) > > Warm Agape Love - Jesse. Down on my knees? You’re kidding, right? What does taking a subserviant stance have to do with love? You’re a walking contradiction. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049.md?page=17)