# Noone is born atheist **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 20, 2008, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049 "2008-12-20T07:03:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/321 "2008-12-27T14:40:33Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Sure there can be “self” in love. As the saying goes, you can’t love someone else until you love yourself. You have to feel worthy to the object of your affection so that you can receive love from them. Obsession is another word for one-sided love. > > **So, we don’t entirely agree about the components of love.** > > Can you provide the names of the books you’ve written? You’ve piqued my interest. Sorry, not a chance! I can better serve anonymously when posting on Internet forums. My books, CD’s, and photography would bias those with whom I interact on the net. I did post a poem a few pages back, but that’s all you’re getting. 😛 G’night. Sweet dreams - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/322 "2008-12-27T14:50:13Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Down on my knees? You’re kidding, right? What does taking a subserviant stance have to do with love? You’re a walking contradiction. Kalhoun, think about it. If the GOD you doubt exists _does_ exist, and is the Creator of all things, including you, wouldn’t you _expect_ that HE would _expect_ you to approach Him with respect and reverence? Many prostrate themselves when they pray, other kneel, others stand. Your physical position isn’t terribly important but you attitude is. The Bible cousels us to ‘Pray in an undertone all day long.’ We can’t very well do that on our knees or we wouldn’t get anything done. The measure of arrogance displayed by anyone objecting to ‘taking a suserviant stance’ before God is… beyond measure. Even CHRIST came as a ‘Suffering SERVANT,’ but that’s too much for you? Do you salute the flag? Stand up for the national anthem? Kneel down before those in authority when it’s called for? Bow as a sign of respect when you’re in polite company? If so, why would you do these things for humans and human institutions, but rail against humbling yourSELF before God? It staggers the imagination! Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/323 "2008-12-27T15:04:05Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > If the GOD you doubt exists _does_ exist, Condition accepted. Now prove god, your god specifically, exists. > [@](#): > > The measure of arrogance displayed by anyone objecting to ‘taking a suserviant stance’ before God is… beyond measure. Even CHRIST came as a ‘Suffering SERVANT,’ but that’s too much for you? You call people who question you arrogant a lot. The only arrogance I see here is someone insisting their beliefs are facts. Until you give us a reason to believe you are not deluded, that can be our only conclusion. > [@](#): > > If so, why would you do these things for humans and human institutions, but rail against humbling yourSELF before God? So human things apply to god? We should treat god with respect the way we treat other humans with respect? So why doesn’t the human definition of love apply to god? Ask any parent if they would stand there and watch their children get raped, starve to death, or be murdered. Then go ask god why he stands there while children are raped, starved and murdered. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/324 "2008-12-27T15:26:58Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > Kalhoun, think about it. If the GOD you doubt exists _does_ exist, and is the Creator of all things, including you, wouldn’t you _expect_ that HE would _expect_ you to approach Him with respect and reverence? No. _Love_ doesn’t expect servitude or reverence. What you’re talking about here is _worship_, and I don’t (and won’t) worship anything. It’s degrading. > [@](#): > > Many prostrate themselves when they pray, other kneel, others stand. Your physical position isn’t terribly important but you attitude is. My attitude toward love is that you need to show you mean it. Since I don’t know there’s a god, but you believe god knows about me, the responsibility is on him to make himself apparent to me _in a way that I would know beyond a doubt that he even exists._ And if he loves everyone, as you claim he does, he would not expect me to bow to him. > [@](#): > > The Bible cousels us to ‘Pray in an undertone all day long.’ We can’t very well do that on our knees or we wouldn’t get anything done. This step seems unnecessary if the being actually exists and possesses the powers you claim he possesses. He would already know what’s in your heart. > [@](#): > > The measure of arrogance displayed by anyone objecting to ‘taking a suserviant stance’ before God is… beyond measure. Even CHRIST came as a ‘Suffering SERVANT,’ but that’s too much for you? He still hasn’t proven his existence. I don’t want to look silly. > [@](#): > > Do you salute the flag? > > Stand up for the national anthem? Occasionally, but I don’t consider it a duty. I’m not big on symbolism. > [@](#): > > Kneel down before those in authority when it’s called for? Never. > [@](#): > > Bow as a sign of respect when you’re in polite company? I might observe the custom were I to find myself in Japan, but they’re quite content to shake hands out of respect for me, in most cases. These rituals don’t hold the same value they once did. Japanese people I’ve met don’t consider it an insult if I don’t bow. They recognize it’s a custom and not a sign of disrespect. > [@](#): > > If so, why would you do these things for humans and human institutions, but rail against humbling yourSELF before God? Because it serves no purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/325 "2008-12-27T16:55:14Z")
Quote: Originally Posted by Jesse Leigh Kalhoun, think about it. If the GOD you doubt exists _does_ exist, and is the Creator of all things, including you, wouldn’t you _expect_ that HE would _expect_ you to approach Him with respect and reverence? No. Love doesn’t expect servitude or reverence. What you’re talking about here is worship, and I don’t (and won’t) worship anything. It’s degrading. **Jesse: God expects it of you, Kalhoun. Christ worshipped Our Father, but you believe it’s beneath you. Fine. God will never talk to you or answer any of your questions as long as you believe you are above worshipping your Creator.** Quote: Many prostrate themselves when they pray, other kneel, others stand. Your physical position isn’t terribly important but you attitude is. My attitude toward love is that you need to show you mean it. Since I don’t know there’s a god, but you believe god knows about me, the responsibility is on him to make himself apparent to me in a way that I would know beyond a doubt that he even exists. And if he loves everyone, as you claim he does, he would not expect me to bow to him. **Jesse: GOD owes you nothing. You, conversely, owe HIM everything and he most certainly does expect you to bow to HIM.** Quote: The Bible cousels us to ‘Pray in an undertone all day long.’ We can’t very well do that on our knees or we wouldn’t get anything done. This step seems unnecessary if the being actually exists and possesses the powers you claim he possesses. He would already know what’s in your heart. **Jesse: There’s nothing GOD doesn’t know (Omniscient.), but He still expects you to pray to Him, if only to say thank You.** Quote: The measure of arrogance displayed by anyone objecting to ‘taking a suserviant stance’ before God is… beyond measure. Even CHRIST came as a ‘Suffering SERVANT,’ but that’s too much for you? He still hasn’t proven his existence. I don’t want to look silly. **Jesse: Too late!** Quote: Do you salute the flag? Stand up for the national anthem? Occasionally, but I don’t consider it a duty. I’m not big on symbolism. **Jesse: My reasons for not doing so differ from yours, but I don’t engage in the above rituals either. Imagine that, something we agree on.** 😉 Quote: Kneel down before those in authority when it’s called for? Never. **Jesse: “Give honor to whom it is due.” Also known as displaying humility.** Quote: Bow as a sign of respect when you’re in polite company? I might observe the custom were I to find myself in Japan, but they’re quite content to shake hands out of respect for me, in most cases. These rituals don’t hold the same value they once did. Japanese people I’ve met don’t consider it an insult if I don’t bow. They recognize it’s a custom and not a sign of disrespect. **Jesse:I didn’t specify a geographical region. Well-bred people the world over extend such courtesies to one another. We obviously travel in different circles socially.** Quote: If so, why would you do these things for humans and human institutions, but rail against humbling yourSELF before God? Because it serves no purpose. \*\*Jesse: You want answers to your questions, but not badly enough to humble yourself, and that is the only way you’ll get them. As the sages say, ‘When the student is ready the teacher will appear.’ Clearly you’re not ready, so as far as I’m concerned this discussion is over. I wish you well, Kalhoun. - Jesse.\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/326 "2008-12-27T16:58:31Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > \*\*Jesse: You want answers to your questions, but not badly enough to humble yourself, and that is the only way you’ll get them. As the sages say, ‘When the student is ready the teacher will appear.’ Clearly you’re not ready, so as far as I’m concerned this discussion is over. > > I wish you well, Kalhoun. - Jesse.\*\* Are you here to converse with us and share thoughts, or are you here to teach us? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/327 "2008-12-27T17:04:32Z")
**Jesse Leigh** , you’ve answered other’s questions, but not mine! Do you accept the Trinity? Or do you believe that Jesus is merely the Son of God and not God himself? You’ve been pretty specific in this thread about telling people what to do to reach God. I’m curious how rigid the rules are. If I believe that Jesus was a prophet, but not the son of God, will God listen to me? If I don’t believe in the New Testament at all, but still pray to God, will God listen to me? If believe in many gods and pray to them, will God listen to me as though I was praying to him directly? ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/328 "2008-12-27T17:11:39Z")
G’morning Czarcasm! I only have a few minutes, I’m at work and taking a quick coffee break. You ask: > [@](#): > > ‘Are you here to converse with us and share thoughts, or are you here to teach us?’ I have answered a seemingly endless barrage of questions and constant demands for answers. At times we are all teachers, but all teachers are students as well. I’m not interested in small talk, but exchanging thoughts is always educational. I have nothing further to say on the topic of how one can reach GOD. There are many other topic of interest here, and from time to time I’ll no doubt share my thoughts - _if_ I believe I have anything of value to contribute. I must return to work now. G’night. Warm Agape Love - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/329 "2008-12-27T17:26:49Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > At times we are all teachers, but all teachers are students as well. The first step in becoming a student is opening yourself to the possibility of learning. Are you willing to entertain the possibility that we atheists may be right and you Christians may be wrong? Because until you take that first step, no learning is possible. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/330 "2008-12-27T17:34:57Z")
I guess this would have gone better if I would have just humbled myself at your feet and declared you the end-all on the subject of religion, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/331 "2008-12-27T17:38:13Z")
> [@Pochacco](#): > > **Jesse Leigh** , you’ve answered other’s questions, but not mine! > > **Perhaps if you had been a little more polite… I’ll answer you this time, but you might want to keep in mind that I generally do not encourage (read, respond) to rude behavior.** > > Do you accept the Trinity? Or do you believe that Jesus is merely the Son of God and not God himself? > > **What I believe about the Trinity is irrelevant to this discussion. If you wish to know my understanding of the subject, you can find it here** [http://christianviewpoint.yuku.com/topic/1063?page=4](http://christianviewpoint.yuku.com/topic/1063?page=4) > > You’ve been pretty specific in this thread about telling people what to do to reach God. I’m curious how rigid the rules are. > > If I believe that Jesus was a prophet, but not the son of God, will God listen to me? > > **No. “No one comes to the Father, but by Me.” (Jesus Christ)** > > If I don’t believe in the New Testament at all, but still pray to God, will God listen to me? > > **No. “No one comes to the Father, but by Me.” (Jesus Christ)** > > If believe in many gods and pray to them, will God listen to me as though I was praying to him directly? \*\*No. “No one comes to the Father, but by Me.” (Jesus Christ) I believe I’ve been specific in answering your questions.\*\* Sincerely - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/332 "2008-12-27T17:43:28Z")
Heh-heh…look who’s telling other people they’re rude! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/333 "2008-12-27T17:53:54Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > Perhaps if you had been a little more polite… I’ll answer you this time, but you might want to keep in mind that I generally do not encourage (read, respond) to rude behavior. I apologize if I came off as rude. > [@](#): > > If you wish to know my understanding of the subject, you can find it here [http://christianviewpoint.yuku.com/topic/1063?page=4](http://christianviewpoint.yuku.com/topic/1063?page=4) That’s a lot to read to answer a very simple question! I’m just asking if you believe in the Trinity. You can just type yes or no. 🙂 > [@](#): > > No. “No one comes to the Father, but by Me.” (Jesus Christ) So you’re saying that Muslims and Jews, for example, will not go to heaven when they die. But, there are many devout Muslims and Jews who believe they have a deep personal relationship with God despite not accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. Are those devout Muslims and Jews merely deluded about their personal spiritual experiences? ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/334 "2008-12-27T18:20:27Z")
> [@Pochacco](#): > > I apologize if I came off as rude. > > No problem. Thank you for the apology, I appreciate it. > > That’s a lot to read to answer a very simple question! I’m just asking if you believe in the Trinity. You can just type yes or no. 🙂 > > **As with most things which seem to divide people, it’s not that simple. I believe I’ve adequately explained myself on the thread to which I gave you a link**. > > So you’re saying that Muslims and Jews, for example, will not go to heaven when they die. > > **Only God decides who goes to Heaven. You asked me if God listens to the _prayers_ of those who do not believe Jesus is GOD’s Son. That’s a different question.** > > But, there are many devout Muslims and Jews who believe they have a deep personal relationship with God despite not accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. Are those devout Muslims and Jews merely deluded about their personal spiritual experiences? \*\*I am neither commanded nor qualified to comment on the mental state of entire religious groups. My commission is to preach and teach the Gospel of Christ; it is not my station to disparage or praise, but merely to deliver the Message. Our Lord Jesus tells us, “No one comes to The Father but by Me.” My _opinion on the matter is irrelevant._ Love - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/335 "2008-12-27T18:20:56Z")
Personally, I’d rather bow than shake hands. It’s easier. As for God, he’s gonna have to prove himself before I waste time on any such politeness. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/336 "2008-12-27T18:28:22Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > I am neither commanded nor qualified to comment on the mental state of entire religious groups. I’m not sure why you’re being so cagey. Your message seems pretty simple. You quoted Jesus: “No one comes to the Father, but by Me.” So that means that if a Jew believes he has a strong personal relationship with God, he’s mistaken, right? I mean, isn’t that the whole purpose of missionary work? To help those who don’t know the way find the right way to God? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/337 "2008-12-27T18:31:24Z")
> [@Pochacco](#): > > I mean, isn’t that the whole purpose of missionary work? To help those who don’t know the way find the right way to God? You’re putting her an in awkward position, re: missionary. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/338 "2008-12-27T18:46:49Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > You’re putting her an in awkward position, re: missionary. \ \*\* Jesse Leigh\*\* has no respect for anyone who doesn’t follow her version of the bible and god’s will. If they’re not willing to be “saved” (whatever THAT means) by her indisputable interpretation of god’s will, she has no use for them. She can’t simply live side by side with rationalists without spouting on and on about what god whispers in her ear when no one’s looking. Her god (like everyone else’s) resides in her head. And Jesse Leigh has no personal opinions, no responsibility for her actions, and no control over what she does with her life. I can’t think of a more pitiful way to live one’s life. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/339 "2008-12-27T19:35:25Z")
That may be true, but heaping scorn on her for it is only feeding the martyrdom aspect of her faith. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/340 "2008-12-27T19:40:37Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > That may be true, but heaping scorn on her for it is only feeding the martyrdom aspect of her faith. So everybody wins! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049.md?page=18)