# Noone is born atheist **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 20, 2008, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049 "2008-12-20T07:03:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/341 "2008-12-27T19:44:54Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > That may be true, but heaping scorn on her for it is only feeding the martyrdom aspect of her faith. She won’t answer questions she can’t answer with ambiguous platitudes, so scorn is pretty much all we have left. She’s had every opportunity to give even the smallest bit of evidence for her claims, but instead chooses to repeat the same empty gibberish over and over. She’s just another religious mouthpiece, no listening or comprehension, just broadcasting her message and expecting blind adoration. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/342 "2008-12-27T19:54:23Z")
> [@Pochacco](#): > > I’m not sure why you’re being so cagey. Your message seems pretty simple. You quoted Jesus: “No one comes to the Father, but by Me.” > > So that means that if a Jew believes he has a strong personal relationship with God, he’s mistaken, right? > > \*\*I’m not being ‘cagey,’ Pochacco, but to answer you questions properly and fully requires a lot more information than I believe most people on this forum are interested in hearing. Most here are barely ready for the ‘milk’ of the Word and you are asking me ‘meat’ questions. If I seem evasive to you, that is why. > > Are you aware that the ‘Jews’ (only those from the tribe of Judah are Jews, but I believe you’re using the title to refer to those who worship YHWH but deny Christ, am I correct?) were originally charged with preaching God’s Kingdom to humankind, but they didn’t/wouldn’t do it, so God ‘VEILED’ (blinded them to proper understanding) the ‘Jews’ ‘Until the full number of Gentiles has come in’? > > We’re now seeing many ‘Jews’ become Messianic (believers in Christ as their Lord and Savior), so we know that the veil has been _partially_ lifted, which one would expect given where we are in the Biblical timeline. So, while ‘Jews’ have had their wits dulled when it comes to Christ, the extent of that, or what remains open to them as far as their relationship with God goes, the Bible doesn’t say. That is why I am unwilling to comment on the subject. > > God has also ‘hidden the knowledge of Himself’ from all those who deny Christ. Matthew 11:25-27.\*\* > > I mean, isn’t that the whole purpose of missionary work? To help those who don’t know the way find the right way to God? \*\*Absolutely, but we sow the _seeds_ of truth only, and the ‘soil’ upon which they fall ranges from fertile (receptive) to barren (hostile). When we see a seed sprout, we then nourish and tend it until it reaches maturity. Soil that is barren at one time my be fertile later, indeed this is often the case. No missionary ever gives up on another human being, even if years must pass before they cross paths again. The Apostle Paul was one of the worst persecutors of Christians, until Jesus stopped him on the road to Damascus and point blank asked him, ‘Why are you persecuting Me.’ (Notice, Christ makes no distinction between Himself and the rest of the Body of Christ - AKA - believers.) The ‘Jews’ will all be ‘unveiled’ in due time, but those who ‘harden their hearts’ repeatedly and voluntarily have quite a different destiny. The _Will_ of God, however, is that ALL soil (people’s hearts) should become fertile. “YHWH is patient with you because He desires that _none_ should be destroyed, but that _all_ should attain to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9) “For God so loved that world that He sent His Only Begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in Him might _not_be destroyed, but have everlating life.” (John 3:16) There are those who refuse to accept the free gift of everlasting life through Jesus Christ, and God has stayed his hand, and continues to, in order for all to have had the _opportunity_ to be reconciled to Him through Christ. He will not stay His hand much longer. Whatever else Christians disagree about they all agree on this point. The ‘day and the hour’ we don’t know, and for good reason, but we know that the SEASON is HERE. It’s unmistakable. Re: Muslims. Ishmael (Abraham’s first son) was blessed by God, but it was through Isaac, Abraham’s second son that the Nation of Israel was founded. The Bible tells us that at the end of the age (coming to a neighborhood near you - SOON), Ishmael and Isaac will ‘join hands’ again, as they did at the grave of their natural father (Abraham) when they’d buried him - an act they performed together. GOD doesn’t tell us everything - not nearly everthing as a matter of fact, but He has told us what we need to know to prepare for His Kingdom and He has given us the history of the human race. We know all we need to know, but GOD doesn’t always tell us HOW He’s going to do this or that, but only that He will. Of ALL the things GOD has ever said He would do, not one of them has failed to come about - not one. People on this forum ask for ‘proof’ of GOD’s existence. Proof is available in abundance - if they would only look. ‘SEEK the Kingdom,’ Jesus said. It’s not that it’s difficult to find, but that it will take effort on our part to enter therin. If a baseball player was batting a thousand, d’you think they would question his talent, or would his track record PROVE that he was indeed a baseball player? Warm Agape Love - Jesse.\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/343 "2008-12-27T20:04:31Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > \*\*Absolutely, but we sow the _seeds_ of truth only, and the ‘soil’ upon which they fall ranges from fertile (receptive) to barren (hostile). When we see a seed sprout, we then nourish and tend it until it reaches maturity. > > Soil that is barren at one time my be fertile later, indeed this is often the case. No missionary ever gives up on another human being, even if years must pass before they cross paths again. The Apostle Paul was one of the worst persecutors of Christians, until Jesus stopped him on the road to Damascus and point blank asked him, ‘Why are you persecuting Me.’ (Notice, Christ makes no distinction between Himself and the rest of the Body of Christ - AKA - believers.) > > The ‘Jews’ will all be ‘unveiled’ in due time, but those who ‘harden their hearts’ repeatedly and voluntarily have quite a different destiny. > > The _Will_ of God, however, is that ALL soil (people’s hearts) should become fertile. > > “YHWH is patient with you because He desires that _none_ should be destroyed, but that _all_ should attain to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9) > > “For God so loved that world that He sent His Only Begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in Him might _not_be destroyed, but have everlating life.” (John 3:16) > > There are those who refuse to accept the free gift of everlasting life through Jesus Christ, and God has stayed his hand, and continues to, in order for all to have had the _opportunity_ to be reconciled to Him through Christ. He will not stay His hand much longer. Whatever else Christians disagree about they all agree on this point. The ‘day and the hour’ we don’t know, and for good reason, but we know that the SEASON is HERE. It’s unmistakable. > > Re: Muslims. Ishmael (Abraham’s first son) was blessed by God, but it was through Isaac, Abraham’s second son that the Nation of Israel was founded. The Bible tells us that at the end of the age (coming to a neighborhood near you - SOON), Ishmael and Isaac will ‘join hands’ again, as they did at the grave of their natural father (Abraham) when they’d buried him - an act they performed together. > > GOD doesn’t tell us everything - not nearly everthing as a matter of fact, but He has told us what we need to know to prepare for His Kingdom and He has given us the history of the human race. We know all we need to know, but GOD doesn’t always tell us HOW He’s going to do this or that, but only that He will. Of ALL the things GOD has ever said He would do, not one of them has failed to come about - not one. > > People on this forum ask for ‘proof’ of GOD’s existence. Proof is available in abundance - if they would only look. ‘SEEK the Kingdom,’ Jesus said. It’s not that it’s difficult to find, but that it will take effort on our part to enter therin. > > If a baseball player was batting a thousand, d’you think they would question his talent, or would his track record PROVE that he was indeed a baseball player? > Warm Agape Love - Jesse.\*\* Are you saying we’ll be smited? Really? As in “no goddy love?” Warm agape mouth – Kalhoun ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/344 "2008-12-27T20:15:35Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Are you saying we’ll be smited? Really? As in “no goddy love?” > > Warm agape mouth – Kalhoun Nope. There is a broad path and a narrow path and we _all_ get to choose. Some people wouldn’t like life in God’s Kingdom, what with all the required subservience and all. The loving thing for God to do would be to grant them their heart’s desire. No worship, no subservience, no belief required, no love required. Oblivion awaits those who don’t want to be in God’s Kingdom anyway. So, atheists get what they want, courtesy of the Love of God, of course. Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/345 "2008-12-27T20:33:55Z")
Here that, atheist people? It’s only through God’s love and acquiescence that you know not of God. So, Jesse, can we agree then that it’s pointless to bring the word of God to those who God is allowing to ignore it? You no longer need to meddle in the lives of others, atheists are happy, God is happy. Everyone jumps on the peace train. Cheers! ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/346 "2008-12-27T20:41:29Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > Nope. There is a broad path and a narrow path and we _all_ get to choose. Some people wouldn’t like life in God’s Kingdom, what with all the required subservience and all. The loving thing for God to do would be to grant them their heart’s desire. No worship, no subservience, no belief required, no love required. Oblivion awaits those who don’t want to be in God’s Kingdom anyway. So, atheists get what they want, courtesy of the Love of God, of course. > > Jesse. Damn, Silly me. So God is making it possible for me to think he/she/it doesn’t exist. I feel so stupid for not knowing. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/347 "2008-12-27T21:07:22Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > So, while ‘Jews’ have had their wits dulled when it comes to Christ, the extent of that, or what remains open to them as far as their relationship with God goes, the Bible doesn’t say. Now I’m confused. First you say that the only way to God is through Christ. Now you say it’s possible that other ways may be open to people. Which is it? When I asked you this question early today you seemed so certain! I asked: > [@](#): > > If I don’t believe in the New Testament at all, but still pray to God, will God listen to me? And you responded: > [@](#): > > No. “No one comes to the Father, but by Me.” (Jesus Christ) That seems pretty clear. The only way to God is through Jesus. Devout Jews who pray to God but who don’t believe in the New Testament cannot come to God. Right? If I’m misunderstanding your message, please tell me what my error is! ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/348 "2008-12-27T21:15:29Z")
> [@Lobsang](#): > > Damn, Silly me. So God is making it possible for me to think he/she/it doesn’t exist. I feel so stupid for not knowing. For a forum that’s trying to outrun ignorance we have a dreadful reading comprehension problem here. **I did not say that God made you not believe in Him. I said that atheists will get what they want** - oblivion, and won’t have to lower themselves to worship GOD. My short post was a tongue-in-cheek response to Kalhoun, but it does apply to the atheist argument perfectly. Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/349 "2008-12-27T21:19:01Z")
I tried to delete the post. I didn’t want to get into a discussion. I was too late. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/350 "2008-12-27T21:20:14Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > I said that atheists will get what they want - oblivion, and won’t have to lower themselves to worship GOD. I’d like that in writing from the big guy. I’d rather spend eternity in the lake of fire than be subjected to his perverted concept of love forever. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/351 "2008-12-27T21:21:57Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > For a forum that’s trying to outrun ignorance we have a dreadful reading comprehension problem here. **I did not say that God made you not believe in Him. I said that atheists will get what they want** - oblivion, and won’t have to lower themselves to worship GOD. My short post was a tongue-in-cheek response to Kalhoun, but it does apply to the atheist argument perfectly. > > Jesse. That’s not a very convincing argument for christianity. Once we’re dead, we’re all relegated to the dustbin. There is no alternative to “nothingness.” We will join those before us in unconscious non-existence. It will feel exactly the way it felt before we were born. I find that rather comforting! ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/352 "2008-12-27T21:38:43Z")
> [@Pochacco](#): > > Now I’m confused. First you say that the only way to God is through Christ. Now you say it’s possible that other ways may be open to people. Which is it? > > When I asked you this question early today you seemed so certain! I asked: > > And you responded: > > That seems pretty clear. The only way to God is through Jesus. Devout Jews who pray to God but who don’t believe in the New Testament cannot come to God. Right? > > If I’m misunderstanding your message, please tell me what my error is! As I said earlier, the ‘Jews’ will _all_ be unveiled. THEN they’ll come to GOD through Christ. I suspect (but don’t know, since GOD doesn’t say) that the children of Ishmael (Muslims) will have a similar experience. Still, NO ONE will come to GOD in any other way than through Christ. Total clarity many not be afforded all until the Great White Throne Judgment. GOD doesn’t tell us His timing for either occurrence (well, we can see that the inveiling of the Jews has been progessing for some time), and we don’t require to know it. What we need to know isn’t a mystery. We’ll find out the rest in due time. Agape - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/353 "2008-12-27T21:46:45Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I’d like that in writing from the big guy. I’d rather spend eternity in the lake of fire than be subjected to his perverted concept of love forever. The ‘Lake of fire’ = The second death. Oblivion. If you stay on your present course that’s what awaits you - as I understand the Scriptures. Some people believe that ALL will be ‘saved’ (Universalists) regardless, but it’ll take centuries of remedial teaching by GOD. Wouldn’t that be a bummer! I can’t find any Biblical evidence for Universalim, but it has many adherents. I’d vote for it if it were on a ballot, it _is_ the Will of God (as posted above) after all, and I don’t want to see anyone destroyed either. Agape - Jesse. P.S. I thought you didn’t believe in The Big Guy! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/354 "2008-12-27T21:51:55Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > As I said earlier, the ‘Jews’ will _all_ be unveiled. THEN they’ll come to GOD through Christ. I suspect (but don’t know, since GOD doesn’t say) that the children of Ishmael (Muslims) will have a similar experience. Still, NO ONE will come to GOD in any other way than through Christ. Ah, so a devout Jew who believes that he has a relationship with God _right now_ is mistaken, right? At some point in the future the truth of Christ will be unveiled to him, but _right now_ if he feels at one with God … he’s mistaken. Am I understanding you correctly? ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/355 "2008-12-27T22:12:54Z")
> [@Pochacco](#): > > Ah, so a devout Jew who believes that he has a relationship with God _right now_ is mistaken, right? > > At some point in the future the truth of Christ will be unveiled to him, but _right now_ if he feels at one with God … he’s mistaken. > > Am I understanding you correctly? No. Please go back and read my original response to you again. I told you I couldn’t comment on what GOD permits Jews and Muslims (or anyone other than Christians) in terms of a relationship with Him because GOD doesn’t tell us that and we don’t need to know. Those you refer to as Jews were blinded by GOD, so perhaps GOD does interact with them, He doesn’t say. He _does_ say that He doesn’t listen to the _prayers_ of those who are antiChrist - defined in the Bible as those who deny that Christ is the Son of God. Does this help? Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/356 "2008-12-27T22:19:18Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > No. Please go back and read my original response to you again. I told you I couldn’t comment on what GOD permits Jews and Muslims (or anyone other than Christians) in terms of a relationship with Him because GOD doesn’t tell us that and we don’t need to know. > > Those you refer to as Jews were blinded by GOD, so perhaps GOD does interact with them, He doesn’t say. He _does_ say that He doesn’t listen to the _prayers_ of those who are antiChrist - defined in the Bible as those who deny that Christ is the Son of God. > > Does this help? > > Jesse. Well you did say they’d all become magic christians, so evidently god figured we need to know that he interacts with them. After all, he told YOU, didn’t he? Or maybe there’s…ANOTHER GOD…and the two of them are going to have a cage match. Winner gets the jews and muslims! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/357 "2008-12-27T22:24:23Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > He _does_ say that He doesn’t listen to the _prayers_ of those who are antiChrist - defined in the Bible as those who deny that Christ is the Son of God. I see. So if a devout Jew prays to God and feels as though God is listening to him … he’s mistaken. The same is true of a devout Muslim. They may feel like they’re communing with a higher power, but they’re wrong. Is that correct? ---
**Author:** ![Bites\_When\_Provoked](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bites_when_provoked/32/18073_2.png) [@Bites\_When\_Provoked](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bites_When_Provoked)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/358 "2008-12-27T22:34:02Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > \*\*Some people believe that ALL will be ‘saved’ (Universalists) regardless, but it’ll take centuries of remedial teaching by GOD. \*\*Wouldn’t that be a bummer! I can’t find any Biblical evidence for Universalim, but it has many adherents. I’d vote for it if it were on a ballot, it _is_ the Will of God (as posted above) after all, and I don’t want to see anyone destroyed either. Good thing you don’t subscribe to this view: it’s pointless and inane. Atheists are atheists because they can’t see any way in which god(s) could be real. Show him to us (although \*after we’re dead \*seems to be a little on the late side, no pun intended) and we’d immediately accept we were wrong. I cannot think why it’d take centuries of remedial teaching. [ul] [li]We’re atheist, not stupid. [/li][li]We’re atheist, not evil.[/li][/ul] I really think we could get the whole ‘belief’ thing down pat pretty much instantaneously if we actually saw he/she/it existed. Of course if the point of the ‘remedial education’ is just that god wants to gloat for a couple of hundred years, then he can go fuck himself and I’ll take oblivion, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/359 "2008-12-27T23:00:18Z")
> [@Pochacco](#): > > I see. So if a devout Jew prays to God and feels as though God is listening to him … he’s mistaken. The same is true of a devout Muslim. They may feel like they’re communing with a higher power, but they’re wrong. Is that correct? I believe I’ve already said that I cannot comment on what God allows or does not allow on an individual basis. We just don’t know, Pochacco. Perhaps GOD has revealed this information to another of His servants. I can only shine with the Light I have been given, and I have told you what the Bible says and my understanding of these Scriptures. Understand too that there are other ‘higher powers’ who are not YAHWEH. I know of many sincere persons who are communicating with fallen angels (demons) masquerading as GOD. The Bible warns us that there are false spirits and shows us how to test them. It may be worthy of note that GOD doesn’t listen to the prayers of Christians who are behaving badly either. We may all be grafted into The True Vine, but we’ll soon be pruned off if we yield no fruit, as in faith and good works. Following Jesus is a 24/7, 365.25 days a year undertaking which requires love, diligence, focus, and effort on our part. Sunday morning, and other nominal Christians won’t get far on their spiritual journey. None of us ‘has it made’ so to speak. Even the Apostle Paul spoke of having 'The _hope_ of Heaven. He didn’t think he ‘had it made’ anymore than the rest of us do. It’s a daily struggle, an ongoing battle with the forces arrayed against us. Thankfully, GOD teaches how to win those battles too. We don’t fight alone and we’re not alone - ever. Agape - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/360 "2008-12-27T23:36:22Z")
> [@Bites\_When\_Provoked](#): > > Good thing you don’t subscribe to this view: it’s pointless and inane. > > **I hardly think the Will of God is ‘pointless and inane.’ What I said was that I couldn’t find Scriptural support for the notion that all people will be reconciled to GOD. I can’t think of any point of view I’d rather find proof for**. > > Atheists are atheists because they can’t see any way in which god(s) could be real. Show him to us (although \*after we’re dead \*seems to be a little on the late side, no pun intended) and we’d immediately accept we were wrong. > > **YAHWEH insists that HIS Creation is proof enough of his existence and Godship, and calls anyone who thinks otherwise ‘INEXCUSABLE.’ Romans, chapter one**. > > I cannot think why it’d take centuries of remedial teaching. > [ul] > [li]We’re atheist, not stupid. [/li][li]We’re atheist, not evil.[/li][/ul] > > **To bring you (all of us) into the state you (we) need to be in to live happily in God’s Kingdom. Some people will fight GOD’s love all the way, but His Will is _always_ accomplished. Disbelieving GOD isn’t looked upon as smart by GOD, and _any_ departure from following God’s Law is sin, and sin is _evil._ Therefore we are _all_ evil to some degree or other since ‘We all sin and fall short of the glory of God.’** > > I really think we could get the whole ‘belief’ thing down pat pretty much instantaneously if we actually saw he/she/it existed. > > **See above.** > > Of course if the point of the ‘remedial education’ is just that god wants to gloat for a couple of hundred years, then he can go fuck himself and I’ll take oblivion, thanks. \*\*GOD doesn’t gloat. His remedial instruction is always restorative. We don’t have to die to find that out, God works with us every day to show us what we’re doing all right on and what we need to improve upon. If Universalism (the Will of God) is correct, oblivion won’t be an option\*\*. Agape - Jesse. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049.md?page=19)