# Noone is born atheist **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 20, 2008, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049 "2008-12-20T07:03:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/361 "2008-12-27T23:46:54Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > I believe I’ve already said that I cannot comment on what God allows or does not allow on an individual basis. Yet you know what God _doesn’t_ do? ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/362 "2008-12-28T00:01:11Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yet you know what God _doesn’t_ do? If you are referring to prayer, I know what the _Bible_ says GOD doesn’t do. I happen to believe that the Bible is the Word of GOD. I understand that you don’t, so it seems pointless to make an issue out of our differences in this area. Agape - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/363 "2008-12-28T00:03:25Z")
I meant gloating, actually. You’re very confident God doesn’t do that, while claiming you cannot comment or what allows or does not allow on an individual basis. Maybe God _does_ like gloating over individuals. You don’t know. By all indications, you _can’t_ know. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/364 "2008-12-28T00:37:20Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > I believe I’ve already said that I cannot comment on what God allows or does not allow on an individual basis. Then why did you say that the only way to God is through Jesus? Maybe Jesus is necessary for salvation for some people and not for others. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/365 "2008-12-28T00:56:25Z")
> [@Pochacco](#): > > Then why did you say that the only way to God is through Jesus? Maybe Jesus is necessary for salvation for some people and not for others. Pochacco, The complete phrase, is **‘I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by me.’** Which part of this quote do you feel is open to interpretation? I told you I couldn’t comment on another individual’s relationship with GOD because I can’t read other people’s hearts as GOD can, and GOD doesn’t tell us what he plans to do with a particular religious group. From everything I’ve read, one’s heart condition is of paramount importance in determining one’s eternal destiny. One’s conscience plays a major role too, but it’s assumed that one has a trained conscience as is evident from the surrounding Scriptures. I’ve repeatedly said that GOD doesn’t tell us everything, not even how HE plans to effect what we know is coming. I’ve reread my post explaining this to you and I feel I’ve been quite clear. I don’t mind answering bona fide questions, but this is beginning to feel as if they’re being asked in an effort to be contentious. I do hope I’m wrong. Agape - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/366 "2008-12-28T01:03:51Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I meant gloating, actually. You’re very confident God doesn’t do that, while claiming you cannot comment or what allows or does not allow on an individual basis. Maybe God _does_ like gloating over individuals. You don’t know. By all indications, you _can’t_ know. Bryan - GOD IS LOVE. I know God’s definition of LOVE. I have a personal relationship with our Father and gloating isn’t one of his attributes. I am human and as such cannot fathom the recondite mysteries of God, no human can, as His ways are far above our ways. (A quote from Job.) I do know that He does nothing that is not done out of love for us and gloating implies evil delight. GOD isn’t evil and I refuse to argue this point out of respect for HIM. Agape - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/367 "2008-12-28T01:14:56Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > Bryan - GOD IS LOVE. I know God’s definition of LOVE. I have a personal relationship with our Father and gloating isn’t one of his attributes. I am human and as such cannot fathom the recondite mysteries of God, no human can, as His ways are far above our ways. (A quote from Job.) I do know that He does nothing that is not done out of love for us and gloating implies evil delight. GOD isn’t evil and I refuse to argue this point out of respect for HIM. Why not just admit you don’t know? I mean, if God’s ways are recondite mysteries, maybe there’s some gloat-room in there. Heck, even if it _seems_ to not be a loving gesture toward us, we already know the universe is full of things that aren’t very loving, like cancer and hurricanes, but we’re supposed to trust that God have an overall plan. Let him gloat. By your description the gloating (indeed everything God does) is love and if we don’t understand, it’s because of our own limitations. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/368 "2008-12-28T01:22:06Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > I don’t mind answering bona fide questions, but this is beginning to feel as if they’re being asked in an effort to be contentious. I do hope I’m wrong. I’m trying to resolve an apparent contradiction. You said that the only way to God is through Jesus. So I asked … What if someone believes they’ve found God WITHOUT JESUS? Does that mean they’ve made a mistake? You replied you can’t comment on what God does or does not allow on an individual basis. :dubious: It seems like there are two possibilities: 1. The only way to God is through Jesus. If someone thinks they’ve found God without Jesus they’ve made a mistake. The spiritual experience they’ve had is false in some way. 2. There are multiple ways to find God. Jesus is one way, but other people may find other routes. Many different types of spiritual experiences, both Christian and non-Christian, are true. It seems like you believe #1. Am I right? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/369 "2008-12-28T01:45:40Z")
I guess it’s hard to reconcile a message of love with one of “you’re going to Hell” because the first is nice and the second is kinda harsh. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/370 "2008-12-28T02:55:47Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Why not just admit you don’t know? I mean, if God’s ways are recondite mysteries, maybe there’s some gloat-room in there. Heck, even if it _seems_ to not be a loving gesture toward us, we already know the universe is full of things that aren’t very loving, like cancer and hurricanes, but we’re supposed to trust that God have an overall plan. > > Let him gloat. By your description the gloating (indeed everything God does) is love and if we don’t understand, it’s because of our own limitations. Bryan - ‘Recondite mysteries’ is my own phrasing, that God’s ways are far above our ways is what it says in Job. Cancer is one of many illnesses man endures as part of the Adamic Fall. Death is part of the consequence of that fall and it soon will be ‘Brought to nothing.’ Hurricanes serve to cleanse the land and make way for needed new growth. All cyclical things in nature are awe-inspiring and all perform a good even in the wake of destruction. Have you watched a volcano erupt and stood mere feet from the lava flow? I have. I watched eighteen acres of new land form before my eyes, even as the sea flashboiled millions of gallons of water when the molten earth spilled over into it. Certainly GOD has an overall Plan. He has plans for humankind, plans for the Earth, and plans for each constellation and galaxy. Plans for phenomenae we have not yet seen. GOD’S plan for man is **‘To reconcile all things unto Myself, all mankind, and I shall be their GOD and they shall be My people.’** There is much anger on this forum toward GOD and yet most of you don’t know Him. Usually anger with GOD is a transient phase when one has suffered a loss, but here and on other predominantly atheistic forums like this one, it’s a psychological state. I don’t believe in atheists. I believe you all do believe in GOD but are so angry at or with Him that your hatred blinds you to His Love. Yet, you cannot dismiss Him out of hand. I’ve yet to meet anyone who is _truly_ an atheist and I’ve been conversing with professed atheists for fifty years. GOD is blamed for rapes, murders, man-made wars, starving children, disease, even death, yet GOD didn’t do any of this to us, we brought it on ourselves with our propensity for pride, greed, and violence (the meaning of 600 +60+6). He did, however, send us a way out of the madness. The Way is Jesus Christ. Agape - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/371 "2008-12-28T02:58:43Z")
> [@Pochacco](#): > > I’m trying to resolve an apparent contradiction. > > You said that the only way to God is through Jesus. > > So I asked … What if someone believes they’ve found God WITHOUT JESUS? Does that mean they’ve made a mistake? > > You replied you can’t comment on what God does or does not allow on an individual basis. :dubious: > > It seems like there are two possibilities: > > 1. The only way to God is through Jesus. If someone thinks they’ve found God without Jesus they’ve made a mistake. The spiritual experience they’ve had is false in some way. > > 2. There are multiple ways to find God. Jesus is one way, but other people may find other routes. Many different types of spiritual experiences, both Christian and non-Christian, are true. > > It seems like you believe #1. Am I right? Yes. Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/372 "2008-12-28T03:47:28Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > P.S. I thought you didn’t believe in The Big Guy! I do when it is convenient for my mockery of him. Does that hypocrisy bother you? ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/373 "2008-12-28T03:59:47Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I do when it is convenient for my mockery of him. Does that hypocrisy bother you? Yes and no, but it sounds more like schizophrenia than hypocrisy. It doesn’t bother me personally, but I feel sorry for anyone ignorant enough to mock GOD. You aren’t hurting GOD or me with your sarcasm, so what purpose does it serve? Personally, I wouldn’t dare mock GOD, but neither would I want to. Good satire, by the way, is apparent as such. Your ramblings were not. Sorry. Agape - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/374 "2008-12-28T04:06:11Z")
You can’t mock what doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/375 "2008-12-28T04:23:05Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > Yes. Good. That gives us some common ground to start from. You and I both agree that some people have false spiritual experiences. They may think they are communicating with God, but they are mistaken. Whatever the source of these experiences they don’t come from God. They may come from some other supernatural being or spirits, or they simply be a product of the person’s subconscious mind. An important question then, is “How do we separate false spiritual experiences from true ones?” After all, it would be a very bad thing if someone were to allow a false spiritual experience to govern their behavior. At best they would be merely wasting their lives. At worst they could do some serious evil, bringing harm to themselves or others. Determining which spiritual experiences are false and which are true isn’t merely an idle philosophical exericise. It has enormous practical implications for how people live their lives. The thing is, we know that people’s feelings are unreliable in this matter. EVERY religion has strong believers who are totally convinced that their own spiritual experiences are true. But clearly some of these strong believers are mistaken. As you have pointed out, not all religions can be true. If Jesus is necessary for salvation, then strong Muslim believers are mistaken in their belief. It’s kind of shocking, when you think about it, to realize that someone could be so utterly convinced of the truth of their position, and yet be wrong! You’d think they’d have some nagging doubts or uncertainty, but they don’t. Many believe so strongly that they’re willing to die for their beliefs. And yet, sadly, what they believe isn’t true … . You might think that scripture would help. But unfortunately it doesn’t. As you point out, the Bible gives a believer guidance in separating true spiritual beliefs from false ones. Unfortunately the Koran claims that it supercedes the Bible. Which holy book are we to believe? Each one claims to be the absolute truth, but clearly one or the other must be wrong! How do we go about choosing which one to trust? If we trust our feelings we’re back to square one! As you have pointed out, we know that people’s feelings about spiritual things are unreliable. They are prone to falling into error. If we ask God to help us choose which scripture to trust, how can we trust the answer? Maybe the answer is coming from some other spirit. Or merely from our subconscious mind. You’re clearly a strong believer. How do you KNOW you’re not one of those strong believers who are also mistaken? I’ll ask you the same question I asked you back in post #329: **“Are you willing to entertain the possibility that we atheists may be right and you Christians may be wrong?”** Since we know that SOME spiritual experiences are false, is it possible that ALL spiritual experiences are false? ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/376 "2008-12-28T04:23:07Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You can’t mock what doesn’t exist. It’s good that you’re restricting your witnessing to GD; otherwise our hall monitor **bluecanary** will be forced to pit you. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/377 "2008-12-28T04:42:45Z")
… ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/378 "2008-12-28T05:48:37Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > Yes and no, but it sounds more like schizophrenia than hypocrisy. It doesn’t bother me personally, but I feel sorry for anyone ignorant enough to mock GOD. You aren’t hurting GOD or me with your sarcasm, so what purpose does it serve? > > Personally, I wouldn’t dare mock GOD, but neither would I want to. > > Good satire, by the way, is apparent as such. Your ramblings were not. Sorry. > > Agape - Jesse. Please note that we would like posters to use their signature once per thread. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/379 "2008-12-28T06:10:27Z")
> [@the raindog](#): > > It’s good that you’re restricting your witnessing to GD; otherwise our hall monitor **bluecanary** will be forced to pit you. I wasn’t “witnessing,” I just never like accusations that atheism has nything to do with hostility towards God. You can’t “mock” or feel hostility towards an entity which _you do not believe_ exists. How about that? ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/380 "2008-12-28T06:14:39Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I wasn’t “witnessing,” I just never like accusations that atheism has nything to do with hostility towards God. You can’t “mock” or feel hostility towards an entity which _you do not believe_ exists. How about that? I know. I was just kidding. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049.md?page=20)