# Noone is born atheist **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 20, 2008, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049 "2008-12-20T07:03:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/381 "2008-12-28T06:21:54Z")
> [@Pochacco](#): > > Good. That gives us some common ground to start from. > > You and I both agree that some people have false spiritual experiences. They may think they are communicating with God, but they are mistaken. Whatever the source of these experiences they don’t come from God. They may come from some other supernatural being or spirits, or they simply be a product of the person’s subconscious mind. > > An important question then, is “How do we separate false spiritual experiences from true ones?” After all, it would be a very bad thing if someone were to allow a false spiritual experience to govern their behavior. At best they would be merely wasting their lives. At worst they could do some serious evil, bringing harm to themselves or others. Determining which spiritual experiences are false and which are true isn’t merely an idle philosophical exericise. It has enormous practical implications for how people live their lives. > > The thing is, we know that people’s feelings are unreliable in this matter. EVERY religion has strong believers who are totally convinced that their own spiritual experiences are true. But clearly some of these strong believers are mistaken. As you have pointed out, not all religions can be true. If Jesus is necessary for salvation, then strong Muslim believers are mistaken in their belief. > > It’s kind of shocking, when you think about it, to realize that someone could be so utterly convinced of the truth of their position, and yet be wrong! You’d think they’d have some nagging doubts or uncertainty, but they don’t. Many believe so strongly that they’re willing to die for their beliefs. And yet, sadly, what they believe isn’t true … . > > You might think that scripture would help. But unfortunately it doesn’t. As you point out, the Bible gives a believer guidance in separating true spiritual beliefs from false ones. Unfortunately the Koran claims that it supercedes the Bible. Which holy book are we to believe? Each one claims to be the absolute truth, but clearly one or the other must be wrong! How do we go about choosing which one to trust? > > If we trust our feelings we’re back to square one! As you have pointed out, we know that people’s feelings about spiritual things are unreliable. They are prone to falling into error. If we ask God to help us choose which scripture to trust, how can we trust the answer? Maybe the answer is coming from some other spirit. Or merely from our subconscious mind. > > You’re clearly a strong believer. How do you KNOW you’re not one of those strong believers who are also mistaken? > > I’ll ask you the same question I asked you back in post #329: **“Are you willing to entertain the possibility that we atheists may be right and you Christians may be wrong?”** > > Since we know that SOME spiritual experiences are false, is it possible that ALL spiritual experiences are false? Evening Pochacco! Good post! I can’t entertain the possibility that atheism is valid because non-entities can’t instantly heal human beings, and I’ve been healed myself (several times), and I’ve been used in the instantaneous physical healing of others. More than that though, the indwelling of The Holy Spirit is an unmistakable Presence in my life, and He guides me, prompts me, just as surely as if you were to dig me in the ribs or yell at me if I were about to take a misstep. Jesus is just as real a Companion to me, and YAHWEH answers all my prayers. So, atheism is either a cop out or a derangement from my perspective, depending upon whom we’re discussing. It wouldn’t advance the devil’s cause to heal me or encourage me because I’m definitely on his hit list. I could write a book about my battles with him and his minions but this is hardly the place. However, I’ll give you this. I’m a human being, a fallible, all too human, human being, and because I am it’s _possible_ I could be wrong and deluded. I hope I’m not, I pray I’m not, and I don’t believe I am - of course. I believe in The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit and I would rather die than deny them. I live my faith, I work for it, I sing, write, and play for it, and this is the reality I’ve lived in and I’ll die in. It is impossible for me to ignore my experiences, and Satan doesn’t do for his followers what GOD had done, and continues to do for me. Another convincing factor, if I were inclined to doubt my faith, is that many of my experiences have been shared experiences, so two, three, or more of us would have to have been sharing the same delusion, which is medically and biologically impossible. As much as I could write a book about being on Satan’s hit list, I could write (and do write) about living life under GOD’S protection, disguised as fiction, but there’s nothing fictitious about it. Pochacco, you wouldn’t _believe_ my life, the things I’ve done, seen, and had visited upon me. So, the naked truth is that while I am certainly fallible, I don’t believe YHWH is, or Jesus Christ, or The Holy Spirit. IOW, can I be wrong? Certainly! Can They be wrong? Never! I don’t know how to answer you more honestly than this. I do appreciate your well thought out presentation. It’s a pleasure to share my heart with you - regardless of your personal belief system. Warm Agape Love - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/382 "2008-12-28T06:34:50Z")
Czarcasm, I apologize for adding my signature to my last post, but I didn’t see your admonishment prior to posting. Why don’t I recall reading this in the rules…? Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/383 "2008-12-28T06:37:47Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > Czarcasm, > > I apologize for adding my signature to my last post, but I didn’t see your admonishment prior to posting. Why don’t I recall reading this in the rules…? > > Jesse. I figured you hadn’t seen it yet-no prob. [From the rules.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=7697069#post7697069) ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/384 "2008-12-28T07:02:33Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > Another convincing factor, if I were inclined to doubt my faith, is that many of my experiences have been shared experiences, so two, three, or more of us would have to have been sharing the same delusion, **which is medically and biologically impossible.** Nope, apparently it’s rare, but not physically or medically (psychologically) impossible. [Folie à deux](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folie_%C3%A0_deux). Then there’s the obvious one: people lie. Especially when they want to be accepted as part of a group. Especially when believing is more comforting than not believing. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/385 "2008-12-28T07:47:16Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Nope, apparently it’s rare, but not physically or medically (psychologically) impossible. [Folie à deux](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folie_%C3%A0_deux). Then there’s the obvious one: people lie. Especially when they want to be accepted as part of a group. Especially when believing is more comforting than not believing. Brown Eyed Girl - I didn’t mention what my shared experiences were, so there’s no possible way you can offer a valid opinion on what is and is not possible. I stand by my original testimony. - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Bites\_When\_Provoked](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bites_when_provoked/32/18073_2.png) [@Bites\_When\_Provoked](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bites_When_Provoked)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/386 "2008-12-28T08:05:28Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > I can’t entertain the possibility that atheism is valid because non-entities can’t instantly heal human beings, and I’ve been healed myself ( **several times** ) \ I’d have expected that if god healed a person, they’d stay healed. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/387 "2008-12-28T08:26:39Z")
> [@Bites\_When\_Provoked](#): > > I’d have expected that if god healed a person, they’d stay healed. I apologize for my imprecision. God has healed me several times, in each instance curing a different malady. - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/388 "2008-12-28T11:27:00Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > Brown Eyed Girl - I didn’t mention what my shared experiences were, so there’s no possible way you can offer a valid opinion on what is and is not possible. I stand by my original testimony. - Jesse. It doesn’t matter what the shared experience was. People are, after all human. Even believers can get caught up in it. Regarding faith healing, that’s all bullshit and you know it. Studies have been done and have determined it is worthless. The big question you want to ask yourself is, if your god substance can heal you and your pals, why doesn’t he heal everyone? Why not your alcoholic brothers? Why not my mother? Why not every sick person, past or present? If his magical powers extend to medical skills, and he doesn’t use them to heal the sick, your little love train pretty much derails, doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/389 "2008-12-28T12:09:51Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > Your ramblings were not. I am offended by your characterization of my beliefs. Your witnessing isn’t exactly the pinnacle of rational discourse. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/390 "2008-12-28T12:38:11Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > It doesn’t matter what the shared experience was. People are, after all human. Even believers can get caught up in it. > > Regarding faith healing, that’s all bullshit and you know it. Studies have been done and have determined it is worthless. The big question you want to ask yourself is, if your god substance can heal you and your pals, why doesn’t he heal everyone? Why not your alcoholic brothers? Why not my mother? Why not every sick person, past or present? If his magical powers extend to medical skills, and he doesn’t use them to heal the sick, your little love train pretty much derails, doesn’t it? Come off it Kalhoun! Jesus healed scores of sick people and even raised the dead. It was meant to be a preview of coming attractions, as I explained to you earlier. There’s a difference between so-called faith healing and unasked for miracles, by the way. I don’t have enough experience with faith healers to comment on their veracity. However, I’ve experienced what God can do when He so chooses. Why he chooses to do some things and not others at this juncture, I just don’t know. Nevertheless, the results remain the same. Incidentally, only one of my brothers is an alcoholic - with a heart of gold, in case I didn’t mention that before. He hasn’t had an easy life, and I love him. Last time I checked though, he had no patience for GOD. I continue to hope that changes. Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/391 "2008-12-28T12:42:46Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I am offended by your characterization of my beliefs. Your witnessing isn’t exactly the pinnacle of rational discourse. My apologies, Fear Itself. I should have counted to ten before responding to your flippant remark. I didn’t care for your casual mocking of GOD. Still, there’s never a good enough excuse for a breach of etiquette. I’m sorry, and I ask your forgiveness. - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/392 "2008-12-28T12:52:32Z")
Apology accepted. Go, and sin no more. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/393 "2008-12-28T13:01:39Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > Come off it Kalhoun! Jesus healed scores of sick people and even raised the dead. It was meant to be a preview of coming attractions, as I explained to you earlier. > > There’s a difference between so-called faith healing and unasked for miracles, by the way. I don’t have enough experience with faith healers to comment on their veracity. However, I’ve experienced what God can do when He so chooses. Why he chooses to do some things and not others at this juncture, I just don’t know. Nevertheless, the results remain the same. > > Incidentally, only one of my brothers is an alcoholic - with a heart of gold, in case I didn’t mention that before. He hasn’t had an easy life, and I love him. Last time I checked though, he had no patience for GOD. I continue to hope that changes. > > Jesse. You have just made my case for god being an evil sonovabitch. It shouldn’t matter if someone believes or not. Love (whatever THAT means) is touted as the prime motivator of your superhero. You continue to use the bible as your only source of reference for his goodness, and yet if you look around, there’s no evidence to support your case. Horrible deaths continue to take people…believers or not. Your blind insistence that he is capable of healing people or performing other assorted magic tricks simply doesn’t hold water. If he exists, he’s a loser. If he doesn’t, you’re wasting your breath. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/394 "2008-12-28T13:13:04Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > You have just made my case for god being an evil sonovabitch. It shouldn’t matter if someone believes or not. Love (whatever THAT means) is touted as the prime motivator of your superhero. You continue to use the bible as your only source of reference for his goodness, and yet if you look around, there’s no evidence to support your case. Horrible deaths continue to take people…believers or not. Your blind insistence that he is capable of healing people or performing other assorted magic tricks simply doesn’t hold water. If he exists, he’s a loser. If he doesn’t, you’re wasting your breath. This is where we differ, Kalhoun. I look around me and see God’s love _everywhere._ Please do not presume to lecture me about loss, I know what it is to bury a child, brother, mother, father, friends… no one walks through this world unscathed. Loss is a part of our present existence, but it won’t always be this way. The Bible is not my ‘only source of reference’ but you don’t believe in The Holy Spirit or personal experience, so I see no point in bothering you with details. BTDT, and you not only disbelieve GOD, you don’t believe me. - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/395 "2008-12-28T13:21:52Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > This is where we differ, Kalhoun. I look around me and see God’s love _everywhere._ Please do not presume to lecture me about loss, I know what it is to bury a child, brother, mother, father, friends… no one walks through this world unscathed. Loss is a part of our present existence, but it won’t always be this way. > > The Bible is not my ‘only source of reference’ but you don’t believe in The Holy Spirit or personal experience, so I see no point in bothering you with details. BTDT, and you not only disbelieve GOD, you don’t believe me. - Jesse. You’ve offered nothing in the way of support for your argument. I’m not lecturing you about loss, I’m simply highlighting the lack of interest your god offers it’s most staunch believers. Your lazy loophole of “loss is a part of our present existence” is preach-speak for “I don’t know what I’m talking about.” Your god certainly doesn’t act like he loves anyone. Why would you think he does? Maybe you can explain to me _why_ an all-powerful superhero would cause so much pain to those he loves. What’s his motivator? This is a big one, Jesse. You’ve had numerous conversations with him. I’d think this question would be near the top of your list. “Why, god…why don’t you exercise your powers and make everything perfect? You’re capable, yet you choose to be an evil sonofabitch. Why???” ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/396 "2008-12-28T13:27:33Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > I look around me and see God’s love _everywhere._ Everywhere? Evidently you don’t see what the rest of us see. You don’t see the beaten children, the starving, the sick, the victims of horrific crime, those who were swept away by natural disasters (presumably inflicted by your god), those born (of god’s will…every sperm is sacred and all that) with horrible disabilities, and all the rest. Evidently god provides blinders for his most staunch believers. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/397 "2008-12-28T13:36:04Z")
Based on my observations, if there is a god, this is how he interacts with his creation: [ul] [li]Sometimes he bestows blessings on those who are humble and pray for forgiveness.[/li][li]Sometimes he inflicts pain upon the wicked who curse him and turn their backs.[/li][li]Sometimes he bestows blessings on the wicked who curse him and turn their backs.[/li][li]Sometimes he inflicts pain upon those who are humble and pray for forgiveness.[/li][/ul] It appears the living god is indistiguishable from the imaginary one. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/398 "2008-12-28T13:36:16Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > You’ve offered nothing in the way of support for your argument. I’m not lecturing you about loss, I’m simply highlighting the lack of interest your god offers it’s most staunch believers. Your lazy loophole of “loss is a part of our present existence” is preach-speak for “I don’t know what I’m talking about.” > > Your god certainly doesn’t act like he loves anyone. Why would you think he does? Maybe you can explain to me _why_ an all-powerful superhero would cause so much pain to those he loves. What’s his motivator? This is a big one, Jesse. You’ve had numerous conversations with him. I’d think this question would be near the top of your list. “Why, god…why don’t you exercise your powers and make everything perfect? You’re capable, yet you choose to be an evil sonofabitch. Why???” Because GOD did make everything perfect and _we_ (humankind) messed it up and continue to, and because I know that GOD is going to end all suffering - suffering we brought upon ourselves, I might point out. We cause our own pain. **“And GOD will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more mourning, or outcry, or pain, and death will be no more, for the former things have passed away.”** Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/399 "2008-12-28T13:45:28Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Everywhere? Evidently you don’t see what the rest of us see. You don’t see the beaten children, the starving, the sick, the victims of horrific crime, those who were swept away by natural disasters (presumably inflicted by your god), those born (of god’s will…every sperm is sacred and all that) with horrible disabilities, and all the rest. > > Evidently god provides blinders for his most staunch believers. FYI, I was one of those ‘beaten children.’ I have been sick all my life and must take medication to live. I have been homeless and hungry and caught in a couple of natural disasters. I chose and choose to look beyond circumstance. Perspective gained from eyesight only is one dimensional. We must also have vision, understanding, and LOVE. - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/400 "2008-12-28T13:47:24Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Based on my observations, if there is a god, this is how he interacts with his creation: > > [ul] > [li]Sometimes he bestows blessings on those who are humble and pray for forgiveness.[/li][li]Sometimes he inflicts pain upon the wicked who curse him and turn their backs.[/li][li]Sometimes he bestows blessings on the wicked who curse him and turn their backs.[/li][li]Sometimes he inflicts pain upon those who are humble and pray for forgiveness.[/li][/ul] > > It appears the living god is indistiguishable from the imaginary one. FI - Can you think of a reason why the above might be to our benefit? Why is always a very good question. - Jesse. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049.md?page=21)