# Noone is born atheist **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 20, 2008, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049 "2008-12-20T07:03:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/401 "2008-12-28T13:54:58Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > FI - Can you think of a reason why the above might be to our benefit? Why is always a very good question. - Jesse. I can offer no explanation that requires a god. Are you are saying god’s indifference to those he loves is proof that he exists? That kind of pretzel logic is unpersuasive. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Credible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a8b319/32.png) [@Justin\_Credible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Credible)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/402 "2008-12-28T14:13:39Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > Understand too that there are other ‘higher powers’ who are not YAHWEH. I know of many sincere persons who are communicating with fallen angels (demons) masquerading as GOD. The Bible warns us that there are false spirits and shows us how to test them. Jesse, I want to make sure I’m not communicating with a false spirit. Could you elaborate on how to test them? [QUOTE=Jesse Leigh] It may be worthy of note that GOD doesn’t listen to the prayers of Christians who are behaving badly either. [/QUOTE] Behaving badly in what sense? Do you happen to have a biblical passage that references this? > [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > Oblivion awaits those who don’t want to be in God’s Kingdom anyway. So, atheists get what they want, courtesy of the Love of God, of course. > [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > The ‘Lake of fire’ = The second death. Oblivion. If you stay on your present course that’s what awaits you - as I understand the Scriptures. So you don’t believe in Hell as a place of fire, torment, and etcetera, but that it is merely non-existence? It seems like these days that the Christian community is split nearly 50/50 on this issue. On what do you base your belief? > [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > Pochacco, you wouldn’t _believe_ my life, the things I’ve done, seen, and had visited upon me. I know this isn’t the thread for it, but would you ever consider sharing some of your experiences? You mentioned you had your own forum; do you talk about them there? What is your forum’s URL? I also had a question about one of your posts that I meant to quote, but I guess I didn’t. You mentioned that the jews will be veiled until the proper number of gentiles have entered the kingdom. Do you happen to have a passage for this as well? I don’t recall reading about that before. Thanks for all your responses so far in this thread; I’ve enjoyed reading them. Sorry if any of my questions have already been answered. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/403 "2008-12-28T14:33:45Z")
Fear Itself and Just Incredible (HAVE to love that handle, LOL!), I can’t spare the time to address your post at the moment, but I want to. If you’ll permit me twenty-four hours, I’ll get back to you both - God Willing. Justin - so you know, yes I do have Scriptural backing for all that you asked. Warm Agape Love - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/404 "2008-12-28T14:53:09Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > Because GOD did make everything perfect and _we_ (humankind) messed it up and continue to, and because I know that GOD is going to end all suffering - suffering we brought upon ourselves, I might point out. We cause our own pain. > > **“And GOD will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more mourning, or outcry, or pain, and death will be no more, for the former things have passed away.”** > > Jesse. But god has the power to wipe away every tear, and he chooses not to. If he were real, it wouldn’t be possible to cause our own pain. It wouldn’t exist. But of course, if it didn’t exist, there’d be no reason for you to pray. So you make excuses for your monster. You can’t admit he doesn’t love you. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/405 "2008-12-28T14:58:59Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > FYI, I was one of those ‘beaten children.’ I have been sick all my life and must take medication to live. I have been homeless and hungry and caught in a couple of natural disasters. I chose and choose to look beyond circumstance. Perspective gained from eyesight only is one dimensional. We must also have vision, understanding, and LOVE. - Jesse. You choose to be optimistic. So do I. So what? That doesn’t mean anything to your god. You sit there and hope that he’s going to start being nice to you? How long to you have to wait? How much suffering can your perfect being dump on you before you start thinking that maybe he’s just not that into you? Love, shmove. If that’s love, I’ll take a pass, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/406 "2008-12-28T15:00:20Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > Brown Eyed Girl - I didn’t mention what my shared experiences were, so there’s no possible way you can offer a valid opinion on what is and is not possible. I stand by my original testimony. - Jesse. I certainly can when you use terms like “physically and medically impossible.” I don’t care what you say your shared experiences were; they are irrelevant and I’m not going to offer an opinion on them specifically. But to say that shared experiences are impossible outside of religion is flat out incorrect. I just linked proof of that to you, unless of course, you don’t believe in psychology, which is a whole other thing. What’s more likely? That you experienced some divine interaction with an entity nobody can prove even exists (although I’ve no doubt you’d love to do so). Or, that you and a few others were convinced of it through the natural human desire to relate to one another? It’s human nature to group together and find common bonds. It’s a function of imperfect creatures to believe what they’ve imagined is a real, physical experience. If I told you that last night I had a vision of Jesus and he came to me and told me to apologize to you for disagreeing, how would you know that I was being honest? You wouldn’t, regardless of whether I was regarded as sincere in this matter or not. If you chose to believe me, it would be on faith. Once again, I see nothing wrong with faith, so long as you recognize it and present it as such. To present that which you have faith in as fact, undermines the very concept. Proof should not be necessary for you. The reason it becomes necessary is because you present it to others as fact. There is a way out of this vicious circle, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/407 "2008-12-28T15:00:59Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > FI - Can you think of a reason why the above might be to our benefit? Why is always a very good question. - Jesse. And? When you asked this question, what did your pal tell you? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/408 "2008-12-28T15:38:08Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > However, I’ll give you this. I’m a human being, a fallible, all too human, human being, and because I am it’s _possible_ I could be wrong and deluded. I hope I’m not, I pray I’m not, and I don’t believe I am - of course. I believe in The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit and I would rather die than deny them. I live my faith, I work for it, I sing, write, and play for it, and this is the reality I’ve lived in and I’ll die in. It is impossible for me to ignore my experiences, and Satan doesn’t do for his followers what GOD had done, and continues to do for me. > > Another convincing factor, if I were inclined to doubt my faith, is that many of my experiences have been shared experiences, so two, three, or more of us would have to have been sharing the same delusion, which is medically and biologically impossible. As much as I could write a book about being on Satan’s hit list, I could write (and do write) about living life under GOD’S protection, disguised as fiction, but there’s nothing fictitious about it. Pochacco, you wouldn’t _believe_ my life, the things I’ve done, seen, and had visited upon me. The thing is, if you asked a strong believer of any religion, they would give a similar answer. They would say that they had experienced things that were undeniably true and that their spiritual experiences had been shared by others around them. Jews have experienced what you have experienced. Muslims have experienced what you have experienced. Hindus have experienced what you have experienced. Christianity, Judaism, Islam and Hinduism can’t all literally be true. Millions of people have had shared spiritual experiences just as profound and deep as your own and MOST of those experiences have been FALSE. Why then should we believe your spiritual experiences have been any different? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/409 "2008-12-28T16:44:55Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > I didn’t care for your casual mocking of GOD. Does God have a sense of humour? Maybe he enjoys a little mockery. If God _doesn’t_ have a sense of humour, then why do we humans, having been made in his image and all? Are we better than God? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/410 "2008-12-28T17:09:41Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Well, for me it would have to be a closer connection than just a reach-out to someone who’s lonely or troubled. I just can’t muster the love thang without a give-and-take on some intellectual or emotional level. I don’t think it diminishes the value of the interaction. I think compassion and empathy are key to any sort of charitable acts, but they’re not the same as love. I know this might go against the grain here, but there is a selfish component to love. If it’s not a two-way street, it’s not the real deal. Jesse provided a pretty good example of different types of love. I tend to think of it as different expressions of love based on the relationship and the situation. I understand the give and take you speak of. IMO if the situation is right I think the give and take of love provides a great example of duality fading away. {Sorry if this seems to far out there.} There can come a moment or more in the give and take of love where instead of two people doing different things their actions merge. In giving to another we receive something, and in receiving, we give. It’s something poets and songwriters refer to in romantic love but I think it occurs in other relationships as well. I think out of respect for our fellow man and our sense of honor, justice, or mercy we can do positive things. I’m not sure I could make the distinction between those and love when it comes to an action. “Love your enemy” is a principle of love that can help move humanity forward. btw, I totally agree there has to be a self in love. That’s an area where I have a major disagreement with the concepts of religion. Humility, and being humble are great things but I seriously doubt any omnipotent deity needs or wants our worship is some “grovel before me” way. The humility comes when we realize that we are a part of the greater whole. In a world filled with comparisons about who’s smarter, stronger, more attractive, wealthier, we hopefully come to an understanding on how little those things matter in the big picture. In fact, doesn’t “love thy neighbor as thyself” indicate we’re supposed to love ourselves? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/411 "2008-12-28T18:15:52Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > Kalhoun, think about it. If the GOD you doubt exists _does_ exist, and is the Creator of all things, including you, wouldn’t you _expect_ that HE would _expect_ you to approach Him with respect and reverence? My problem with this Jesse is I think it you are placing God as a completely separate all powerful deity. Lot’s of religions do this and IMHO it’s incorrect. What makes more sense to me is that we are already a part of the greater whole. We may believe we are separate and apart but that is the illusion we are trying to shatter. That is the falsehood we will be freed from by the truth of our connection. > [@](#): > > Many prostrate themselves when they pray, other kneel, others stand. Your physical position isn’t terribly important but you attitude is. Agreed. I just don’t think a deity with the attributes we often ascribe to God requires worship in a “humble yourself before me because I’m great and you’re not” manner. We use human traits to refer to God but we should remain aware that those are not literal. For example, calling God a jealous god who doesn’t want us to worship other gods and will be mad and punish us seems like a very outdated concept. It’s like saying heat is jealous and if we don’t show heat proper respect and reverence we’ll be cold. An attitude of humility is important not to please an imagined separate being on some throne, but as an acknowledgment of the truth of our shared connection to each other and all creation. A recognition that whatever our gifts or talents or title may be, we are in this together. > [@](#): > > The measure of arrogance displayed by anyone objecting to ‘taking a suserviant stance’ before God is… beyond measure. Even CHRIST came as a ‘Suffering SERVANT,’ but that’s too much for you? > > Jesse. I don’t see it as arrogance. Why would you expect anyone to bow down before a particular view of a deity they don’t believe in? Christ {to the extent we can believe the story} fulfilled his purpose by teaching and living the truth. In this world that usually means serving, although it can express itself in many ways. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/412 "2008-12-28T18:39:55Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Agreed. I just don’t think a deity with the attributes we often ascribe to God requires worship in a “humble yourself before me because I’m great and you’re not” manner. We use human traits to refer to God but we should remain aware that those are not literal. For example, calling God a jealous god who doesn’t want us to worship other gods and will be mad and punish us seems like a very outdated concept. It’s like saying heat is jealous and if we don’t show heat proper respect and reverence we’ll be cold. > An attitude of humility is important not to please an imagined separate being on some throne, but as an acknowledgment of the truth of our shared connection to each other and all creation. A recognition that whatever our gifts or talents or title may be, we are in this together. This I like. Nicely put. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/413 "2008-12-28T18:46:34Z")
> [@Jesse Leigh](#): > > Kalhoun, think about it. If the GOD you doubt exists _does_ exist, and is the Creator of all things, including you, wouldn’t you _expect_ that HE would _expect_ you to approach Him with respect and reverence? He has no right to expect anything until he proves his own existence to me. Even then, he’d have a lot of explaining to do. He’s accountable to me, not me to him. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/414 "2008-12-28T19:17:36Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > Our Lord Jesus tells us, “No one comes to The Father but by Me.” My _opinion on the matter is irrelevant._ > > Love - Jesse. Jesse, with respect, here’s something all believers need to understand. Your interpretation of scriptures, the nature and purpose of scripture and personnel revelation, and what God requires of you and according to your belief , others as well, is all **your opinion**. I don’t mean that in any accusatory way, or with any intent at diminishing your beliefs. It’s simply a statement of fact. As someone who reveres the truth it’s an important one. As someone who counts himself as a believer I think it’s important for other believers to recognize this as true as well. The truth is, your opinion is certainly very relevant because it forms a big part of your belief system and how you interact with others. The thing to keep in mind is that is is indeed an opinion. Other’s opinions are just as relevant. It’s clear that there are lots of people who believe in God but don’t agree on the details. There are many people who worship Jesus but don’t agree on the details. Many who see the Bible as the Word of God but don’t agree on how it is to be interpreted. IMO, seeing your personnel interpretation, or even a particular groups interpretation as “God said it” rather than “What I personally think this means” IMHO is a disservice to the truth and detrimental to growth not to mention promoting understanding. You have every right to interpret that particular passage in a way that is meaningful to you but I hope you can see that others , like me for instance, have the same right. As you see arrogance in others who disagree with you doesn’t it seem like arrogance to present your interpretation as the obvious correct one that is “what God meant”? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/415 "2008-12-28T19:30:43Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > She won’t answer questions she can’t answer with ambiguous platitudes, so scorn is pretty much all we have left. She’s had every opportunity to give even the smallest bit of evidence for her claims, but instead chooses to repeat the same empty gibberish over and over. She’s just another religious mouthpiece, no listening or comprehension, just broadcasting her message and expecting blind adoration. I can’t figure why anybody who has been around these boards much would bother to insist on evidence when we’ve established over and over again there isn’t any objective evidence. If someone is testifying rather than conversing and you can’t find any thing to discuss, scorn and insults are not the only option. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/416 "2008-12-28T19:33:41Z")
> [@](#): > > Warm agape mouth – Kalhoun I passed this several times before i got it. Pretty funny:D ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/417 "2008-12-28T20:04:23Z")
[QUOTE] > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > If God _doesn’t_ have a sense of humour, then why do we humans, having been made in his image and all? Are we better than God? No, just funnier. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/418 "2008-12-28T20:13:56Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > We are born with the potential for religious belief, and it seems to be a very strong potential. I suspect that if children who had been raised without religious belief (ie, never any discussion about religion at all) were separated from their parents at, say 10 years of age, and formed their own society, they would create religion. I think we are born with the strong potential to create things for our own use. Religion and gods are two examples of this, stone hammers are another. But just as no one pops out of the crevice ready to form a stone hammer, so too is no child born prepared or able to fabricate gods or religions. Religion–even in its “lower” forms like Animism–is obviously a far too sophisticated concept for a newborn. The _lack_ of religion or spiritual/theistic beliefs is, by contrast, as simple as can be and is what we would expect to find in a newborn human, goat, or pine tree. It is ironic to me how the sophisticated concept of religion once indoctrinated in a child tends to lead to simplistic thinking further on down the line, while the utterly simple and uncomplicated concept of atheism–natural in every creature born to Earth–tends to facilitate a more broad and sophisticated intellect down the road of life in many humans. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/419 "2008-12-28T20:30:20Z")
> [@Syntropy](#): > > I agree with the OP. Atheism is not a concept arrived at without serious thought and study. I don’t think we are born at a spiritually null position. I cannot disagree more. Atheism is not “arrived at” at all. It is simply a default position. Though you _could_ perhaps say that atheism is a concept that is not RE-arrived at (i.e. in adolescence or adulthood; once one realizes that the religion forced on them is a sham) without serious thought and study. But all that thought and study is necessary only because the person in question has the difficult task of disentangling him/herself from the powerful and pervasive presence of religion in so many day-to-day affairs. He/she must also face the ridicule and sometimes hatred from the indoctrinated theists all around him/her. It is not a decision to be made lightly–even though it is a simple choice when based only on the logic and rationality of the situation. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/420 "2008-12-28T22:32:13Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > This I like. Nicely put. Ditto. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049.md?page=22)