# Noone is born atheist **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 20, 2008, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049 "2008-12-20T07:03:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/421 "2008-12-28T22:41:44Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I can’t figure why anybody who has been around these boards much would bother to insist on evidence when we’ve established over and over again there isn’t any objective evidence. That’s kind of the point isn’t it? This is a debate forum. It still confuses me as to why testifying is allowed in here. Every time someone testifies in here they get called on it, and every time they just trot the same old junk we’ve seen time and time again and expect our 100% agreement. Sometimes, it’s just efficient to skip right the scorn. > [@](#): > > If someone is testifying rather than conversing and you can’t find any thing to discuss, scorn and insults are not the only option. Well, no, but they work just as well as everything else. Completely and totally ignoring them is about the only thing that works, but some of them still don’t take the hint. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/422 "2008-12-28T23:11:35Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Jesse provided a pretty good example of different types of love. I tend to think of it as different expressions of love based on the relationship and the situation. > > I understand the give and take you speak of. IMO if the situation is right I think the give and take of love provides a great example of duality fading away. {Sorry if this seems to far out there.} There can come a moment or more in the give and take of love where instead of two people doing different things their actions merge. In giving to another we receive something, and in receiving, we give. It’s something poets and songwriters refer to in romantic love but I think it occurs in other relationships as well. > > I think out of respect for our fellow man and our sense of honor, justice, or mercy we can do positive things. I’m not sure I could make the distinction between those and love when it comes to an action. “Love your enemy” is a principle of love that can help move humanity forward. > > btw, I totally agree there has to be a self in love. That’s an area where I have a major disagreement with the concepts of religion. Humility, and being humble are great things but I seriously doubt any omnipotent deity needs or wants our worship is some “grovel before me” way. The humility comes when we realize that we are a part of the greater whole. In a world filled with comparisons about who’s smarter, stronger, more attractive, wealthier, we hopefully come to an understanding on how little those things matter in the big picture. In fact, doesn’t “love thy neighbor as thyself” indicate we’re supposed to love ourselves? I actually can draw distinctions between different types of love, but it irks me when some believers claim god “loves” us because there is nothing to indicate it’s even remotely true. It makes me question her use of the word in any context. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/423 "2008-12-28T23:20:39Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > That’s kind of the point isn’t it? This is a debate forum. It still confuses me as to why testifying is allowed in here. Every time someone testifies in here they get called on it, and every time they just trot the same old junk we’ve seen time and time again and expect our 100% agreement. Sometimes, it’s just efficient to skip right the scorn. Why not just tell them we’ve already discussed it many times rather than ask for evidence you know doesn’t exist? You can even be direct and ask them if they have anything interesting other than the usual witnessing. I don’t think the scorn is all that efficient. > [@](#): > > Well, no, but they work just as well as everything else. Completely and totally ignoring them is about the only thing that works, but some of them still don’t take the hint. to each his own. I enjoy some healthy sarcasm occasionally. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/424 "2008-12-28T23:26:13Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > I actually can draw distinctions between different types of love, but it irks me when some believers claim god “loves” us because there is nothing to indicate it’s even remotely true. It makes me question her use of the word in any context. I get that. Those kind of platitudes are easy to throw around but in the light of harsh reality what do they mean? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/425 "2008-12-28T23:35:00Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I get that. Those kind of platitudes are easy to throw around but in the light of harsh reality what do they mean? **Cosmosdan,** I think I’m starting to understand (after all these years!) where you’re coming from with your take on spirituality. I think we’re pretty close in terms of realizing we’re part of the “greater whole.” I think where we differ is that I don’t call that “human” energy _god._ And I’m not sure, but I think you do. It sounds like you don’t consider this “human” god to be omnipotent, separate, or infallable. Am I close? If so, why call it “god?” ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/426 "2008-12-29T01:26:47Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > **Cosmosdan,** I think I’m starting to understand (after all these years!) where you’re coming from with your take on spirituality. I think we’re pretty close in terms of realizing we’re part of the “greater whole.” I think where we differ is that I don’t call that “human” energy _god._ And I’m not sure, but I think you do. It sounds like you don’t consider this “human” god to be omnipotent, separate, or infallable. Am I close? If so, why call it “god?” I would say that my take on spirituality has changed over those years. I hope it’s a work in progress. It can depend on who I’m talking to. I’m not attached to the term god and sometimes I do think it’s detrimental precisely because of the separate ruling being concept it means to most believers. To me it means a higher consciousness. How it all works I don’t know. I don’t have to know. I accept that to many people that term is a useful vehicle in their own attempt to understand. When talking to good folks like yourself and my agnostic and atheist real life friends and family then dealing with the principles seems a more appropriate and useful way of communicating and finding common ground. Is this higher consciousness a separate entity? No. Infallible, and/or omnipotent. Omniscient? I don’t know. You’ve probably seen me write before that it’s about love and truth. I’d say it feels to me like there is a source that we draw from but maybe it’s more that we aren’t seeing the big picture. The more we are able to see it, our expanded understanding slowly. sometimes painfully, makes progress for humanity. My own spiritual experiences have been feeling like I’m connecting to something greater than myself that lent clarity and understanding. All the questions about life after death and the details of what exactly this higher consciousness is will eventually reveal themselves. Speculation is okay but the division created by different terminology and embracing speculation and tradition as fact, seems very counter productive. What we have is now. This moment and this life, to do something positive with. Whoops,…sorry for the partial sermon. Did I answer your questions? ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/427 "2008-12-29T07:28:06Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > Yes, I have siblings. I have one full brother (with a heart of gold, who’s unfortunately an alcoholic), two haf-brothers (both non-believers), one step-brother (a drug addict who OD’d when he was thirty), and a step sister who is also a drug addict. I bet you’re into that whole 12-step cult too. Let me guess-- YOU are not an alcoholic or drug addict, but you suffer from “co-dependency” and attend Al-Anon cult meetings religiously. Nuttiness begets more nuttiness, I guess. Suppose you try taking responsibility for your own life instead of leaving everything up to an imaginary “higher power” to decide. Nobody’s going to save you from yourself but yourself. But, you’re going to need to grow up and put on your big girl pants first. That’s a very difficult and scary thing to do but you’ll never get there by denying reality and denying your responsibility to yourself and others. I’m sorry to tell you this but your imaginary buddy is NOT going to make everything turn out alright in the end. This is real life. Wake up while you still have some of your life left to live–cuz yor’re going to be really pissed when you finally realize, on your deathbed, that you’ve been deluding yourself and others your entire life. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/428 "2008-12-29T11:58:02Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I would say that my take on spirituality has changed over those years. I hope it’s a work in progress. > > It can depend on who I’m talking to. I’m not attached to the term god and sometimes I do think it’s detrimental precisely because of the separate ruling being concept it means to most believers. To me it means a higher consciousness. How it all works I don’t know. I don’t have to know. I accept that to many people that term is a useful vehicle in their own attempt to understand. > > When talking to good folks like yourself and my agnostic and atheist real life friends and family then dealing with the principles seems a more appropriate and useful way of communicating and finding common ground. > > Is this higher consciousness a separate entity? No. Infallible, and/or omnipotent. Omniscient? I don’t know. You’ve probably seen me write before that it’s about love and truth. I’d say it feels to me like there is a source that we draw from but maybe it’s more that we aren’t seeing the big picture. The more we are able to see it, our expanded understanding slowly. sometimes painfully, makes progress for humanity. My own spiritual experiences have been feeling like I’m connecting to something greater than myself that lent clarity and understanding. > All the questions about life after death and the details of what exactly this higher consciousness is will eventually reveal themselves. Speculation is okay but the division created by different terminology and embracing speculation and tradition as fact, seems very counter productive. What we have is now. This moment and this life, to do something positive with. > > Whoops,…sorry for the partial sermon. Did I answer your questions? Yeah, I _still_ don’t think I get it 100%, but since you admit you don’t either, we’re cool. 😉 I agree that cooperation among people (many of them with different motivators) equals strength (hopefully) toward the greater good. It can also backfire, because we’re only human and sometimes the (perceived) bad guys get the upper hand. I have no reason to believe there will be a revelation regarding life after death or our “purpose” on Earth. We just “are” until we “aren’t”. If we can have a positive impact most of the time, that’s a plus. But since we’re all different, the definition of “positive” will vary. As I sit here doing my morning Coffee Talk with Mr. K and CNN, I see that Israel is bombing the living fuck out of Hamas. I’m sure someone thinks that’s a good idea, but I’m not exactly jumping out of my chair and cheering. To listen to some people, one would think a god is behind this action. If that’s god, I have no interest in subscribing to his newsletter. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/429 "2008-12-29T12:08:46Z")
> [@Justin\_Credible](#): > > Jesse, I want to make sure I’m not communicating with a false spirit. Could you elaborate on how to test them?1 John 4 (Amplified Bible) > > \*\*\*Certainly, Justin. > > 1 John 4 > 1BELOVED, DO not put faith in every spirit, but prove (test) the spirits to discover whether they proceed from God; for many false prophets have gone forth into the world. > > 2By this you may know (perceive and recognize) the Spirit of God: every spirit which acknowledges and confesses [the fact] that Jesus Christ (the Messiah) [actually] has become man and has come in the flesh is of God [has God for its source]; > > 3And every spirit which does not acknowledge and confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh [but would annul, destroy, sever, disunite Him] is not of God [does not proceed from Him]. This [nonconfession] is the [spirit] of the antichrist, [of] which you heard that it was coming, and now it is already in the world. > > 4Little children, you are of God [you belong to Him] and have [already] defeated and overcome them [the agents of the antichrist], because He Who lives in you is greater (mightier) than he who is in the world. > > 5They proceed from the world and are of the world; therefore it is out of the world [its whole economy morally considered] that they speak, and the world listens (pays attention) to them. > > 6We are [children] of God. Whoever is learning to know God [progressively to perceive, recognize, and understand God by observation and experience, and to get an ever-clearer knowledge of Him] listens to us; and he who is not of God does not listen or pay attention to us. By this we know (recognize) the Spirit of Truth and the spirit of error. > > 7Beloved, let us love one another, for love is (springs) from God; and he who loves [his fellowmen] is begotten (born) of God and is coming [progressively] to know and understand God [to perceive and recognize and get a better and clearer knowledge of Him]. > > 8He who does not love has not become acquainted with God [does not and never did know Him], for God is love. > > 9In this the love of God was made manifest (displayed) where we are concerned: in that God sent His Son, the only begotten or unique [Son], into the world so that we might live through Him. > > 10In this is love: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation (the atoning sacrifice) for our sins. > > 11Beloved, if God loved us so [very much], we also ought to love one another. > > 12 No man has at any time [yet] seen God. But if we love one another, God abides (lives and remains) in us and His love (that love which is essentially His) is brought to completion (to its full maturity, runs its full course, is perfected) in us! > > 13By this we come to know (perceive, recognize, and understand) that we abide (live and remain) in Him and He in us: because He has given (imparted) to us of His [Holy] Spirit. > > 14And [besides] we ourselves have seen (have deliberately and steadfastly contemplated) and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son [as the] Savior of the world. > > 15Anyone who confesses (acknowledges, owns) that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides (lives, makes His home) in him and he [abides, lives, makes his home] in God. > > 16And we know (understand, recognize, are conscious of, by observation and by experience) and believe (adhere to and put faith in and rely on) the love God cherishes for us. God is love, and he who dwells and continues in love dwells and continues in God, and God dwells and continues in him. > > 17In this [union and communion with Him] love is brought to completion and attains perfection with us, that we may have confidence for the day of judgment [with assurance and boldness to face Him], because as He is, so are we in this world. > > 18There is no fear in love [dread does not exist], but full-grown (complete, perfect) love turns fear out of doors and expels every trace of terror! For fear brings with it the thought of punishment, and [so] he who is afraid has not reached the full maturity of love [is not yet grown into love’s complete perfection]. > > 19We love Him, because He first loved us. > > 20If anyone says, I love God, and hates (detests, abominates) his brother [in Christ], he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, Whom he has not seen. > > 21And this command (charge, order, injunction) we have from Him: that he who loves God shall love his brother [believer] also.\*\*\* > Behaving badly in what sense? Do you happen to have a biblical passage that references this? > > \*\*Read all of 1 Peter chapter three. (I don’t want to irritate people by posting it all here, so I’ll give you a verse to go on.) > > _‘For the eyes of YHWH are upon the righteous ones, and his ears are toward their supplicaiton (prayer); but the face of YHWH is against those doing bad things.’_\*\* > So you don’t believe in Hell as a place of fire, torment, and etcetera, but that it is merely non-existence? It seems like these days that the Christian community is split nearly 50/50 on this issue. On what do you base your belief? > > \*\*My knowledge of the Hebrew and Greek languages, and upon Scripture itself. Hell (Sheol in Hebrew, and Hades in Greek) is simply the common grave of all mankind. > > _The Lake of Fire_ (Ge’henna), as spoken of in Revelation = _‘The second death.’ \* Death and Hades (the grave) are to be 'thrown into anddestroyed_\*’ in ‘The Lake of Fire.’ Clearly, death and the grave cannot endure punishment, the notion is absurd, as I’m sure you’ll agree. > > The wages for sin = death, (Romans 6:23) not torture or punishment. If the price of sin were torture and punishment then in order for Jesus (as a proitiatory sacrifice) to pay the price of sin for us, He would still have to be on the cross. He isn’t. > > Too, people are not conscious when they are dead. For an explanation of the condition of the dead, read Eccesiastes chapter nine. It’s illuminating.\*\* > > I know this isn’t the thread for it, but would you ever consider sharing some of your experiences? You mentioned you had your own forum; do you talk about them there? What is your forum’s URL? > > **I’ve shared a few minor ones over the years. The rest wouldn’t be believed and I have no permission to share the rest. My forum has been active for circa a decade. You can find it here** [http://christianviewpoint.yuku.com/](http://christianviewpoint.yuku.com/)**(My username on the forum is Jessebelle, in remembrance of a friend (now deceased) of mine’s daughter. Jesse was already ‘taken’.)** > > I also had a question about one of your posts that I meant to quote, but I guess I didn’t. You mentioned that the jews will be veiled until the proper number of gentiles have entered the kingdom. Do you happen to have a passage for this as well? I don’t recall reading about that before. > > \*\*\*Romans Chapter 11. > > Israel Is Not Cast Away > 1I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. > 2God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? > > 3"Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE." > > 4But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.” > > 5In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. > > 6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. > > 7What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; > > 8just as it is written, > “GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, > EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, > DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.” > > 9And David says, > “LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP, > AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM. > 10"LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT, > AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER.” > > 11I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. > > 12Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! > > 13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, > > 14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. > > 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? > > 16If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. > > 17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, > > 18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. > > 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” > > 20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear; > > 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. > > 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. > > 23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. > > 24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree? > > 25For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery–so that you will not be wise in your own estimation–that a veiling, a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; > > 26and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, > “THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, > HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.” > 27"THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, > WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS." > > 28From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; > > 29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. > > 30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, > > 31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. > > 32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. > > 33Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! > > 34For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? > > 35Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? > > 36For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things To Him be the glory forever. Amen\*\*\* > Thanks for all your responses so far in this thread; I’ve enjoyed reading them. Sorry if any of my questions have already been answered. You’re welcome. I hope this is helpful to you. Love - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/430 "2008-12-29T12:30:35Z")
More circle games, as far as I can tell (biblical passages and your posting style hurt my eyes). _What is the test, Jesse???_ All it says is that if the prophet believes in christ then it’s the truth, and if it doesn’t, it’s all a lie. What the fuck kind of logic is that? What the fuck kind of _answer_ is that to his question? ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/431 "2008-12-29T13:17:34Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > More circle games, as far as I can tell (biblical passages and your posting style hurt my eyes). _What is the test, Jesse???_ All it says is that if the prophet believes in christ then it’s the truth, and if it doesn’t, it’s all a lie. What the fuck kind of logic is that? What the fuck kind of _answer_ is that to his question? Morning Kalhoun. I need to keep this brief. Why don’t you let Justin decide whether his question has been answered or not? For future reference, I don’t respond to posts containing profanity. I responded to this one so you won’t have to wonder why I’m ignoring you if you choose to keep it up. Love - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/432 "2008-12-29T13:31:03Z")
Foir the record, you don’t respond to a lot of posts that \*don’t \*contain profanity. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/433 "2008-12-29T13:31:29Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Yeah, I _still_ don’t think I get it 100%, but since you admit you don’t either, we’re cool. 😉 I agree that cooperation among people (many of them with different motivators) equals strength (hopefully) toward the greater good. It can also backfire, because we’re only human and sometimes the (perceived) bad guys get the upper hand. I have no reason to believe there will be a revelation regarding life after death or our “purpose” on Earth. We just “are” until we “aren’t”. If we can have a positive impact most of the time, that’s a plus. But since we’re all different, the definition of “positive” will vary. I’ve come to think that contention {not the kind you’re seeing on CNN} is a part of growth and progress. It makes people think and examine themselves and their position. Although it seems futile at times I think progress is being made. > [@](#): > > As I sit here doing my morning Coffee Talk with Mr. K and CNN, I see that Israel is bombing the living fuck out of Hamas. I’m sure someone thinks that’s a good idea, but I’m not exactly jumping out of my chair and cheering. To listen to some people, one would think a god is behind this action. If that’s god, I have no interest in subscribing to his newsletter. I saw some of the footage on CNN the other day and then photos of bloody children and dead bodies on the web yesterday. It’s tragic and disheartening. I don’t know all the details but I can’t see that returning violence X 10 for violence is any sort of solution. If the US continues it’s somewhat unconditional support for Israel we’re in for more violence in the M.E. Israel and the Palestinians reminds me of the relationship between the US government and native Americans. For some reason our violence was justified while theirs was savagery. Our inconsistency in supporting human rights will come with a price. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/434 "2008-12-29T13:32:07Z")
It might be helpful if you would explain the passages you quoted instead of just slapping up some scripture and then going, “There!” Unfortunately, I can’t get past the fact that scripture is written by men and, as such, subject to being taken with a grain of salt. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/435 "2008-12-29T13:36:43Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > Morning Kalhoun. > > I need to keep this brief. > > Why don’t you let Justin decide whether his question has been answered or not? > > For future reference, I don’t respond to posts containing profanity. I responded to this one so you won’t have to wonder why I’m ignoring you if you choose to keep it up. > > Love - Jesse. It’s a public message board. If you’re going to speak in tongues, you need to expect that some of us might be annoyed. You’re pretty good at the private message thing. If you’re speaking only to Justin, you can use that feature. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/436 "2008-12-29T13:44:51Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I’ve come to think that contention {not the kind you’re seeing on CNN} is a part of growth and progress. It makes people think and examine themselves and their position. Although it seems futile at times I think progress is being made. I agree. Contention (small “c”) helps us sort things out. The kind of contention we’re seeing in the Middle East (in the name of god!!! WTF!!) isn’t the answer. It’s part of an endless string of paybacks. None of them will be happy until the other side is obliterated. > [@](#): > > I saw some of the footage on CNN the other day and then photos of bloody children and dead bodies on the web yesterday. It’s tragic and disheartening. I don’t know all the details but I can’t see that returning violence X 10 for violence is any sort of solution. If the US continues it’s somewhat unconditional support for Israel we’re in for more violence in the M.E. Israel and the Palestinians reminds me of the relationship between the US government and native Americans. For some reason our violence was justified while theirs was savagery. Our inconsistency in supporting human rights will come with a price. agreed. Sigh…☹ ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/437 "2008-12-29T14:57:47Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Foir the record, you don’t respond to a lot of posts that \*don’t \*contain profanity. I’m trying, FI, I’m trying. I don’t have an abundance of ‘free’ time at the moment as I’m working to a deadline and will be until the end of April. I know I owe you a post or two. - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/438 "2008-12-29T16:18:41Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Why not just tell them we’ve already discussed it many times rather than ask for evidence you know doesn’t exist? You can even be direct and ask them if they have anything interesting other than the usual witnessing. I don’t think the scorn is all that efficient. _Nothing_ you tell them works, including that you’ve heard it all before. Everyone thinks that they have the real thing, that their thing is real, that no one can question their beliefs cuz they’re right, etc. They’re aren’t used to be questioned, especially by people who have heard all the arguments and are good at it. They aren’t going to listen anyway, the only reason to argue with them is for people who are watching. Letting arguments go unchallenged can be seen as agreement. Ideas that deserve scorn should be scorned. > [@](#): > > to each his own. I enjoy some healthy sarcasm occasionally. Sarcasm is a form of scorn… ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/439 "2008-12-29T16:59:54Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > _Nothing_ you tell them works, including that you’ve heard it all before. Everyone thinks that they have the real thing, that their thing is real, that no one can question their beliefs cuz they’re right, etc. They’re aren’t used to be questioned, especially by people who have heard all the arguments and are good at it. They aren’t going to listen anyway, the only reason to argue with them is for people who are watching. Letting arguments go unchallenged can be seen as agreement. Ideas that deserve scorn should be scorned. It’s not a matter of what works or expecting to change their minds. It’s a matter of what type of communicator you choose to be, and how that affects those you communicate with and those who witness the communication. I did not suggest letting the argument go unchallenged. Quite the contrary. I think consistent and persistent correction backed with as many facts as possible is called for. If someone willingly comes to a public board for discussion they should expect to be challenged. The problem with that last sentence is is deciding who gets to set the standard of which ideas deserve to be scorned. > [@](#): > > Sarcasm is a form of scorn… it can also be a form of humor and sometimes I get carried away to the point where I piss people off. For the most part I prefer respectful disagreement to ridicule and insults. YMMV ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/440 "2008-12-29T17:02:57Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > I’m trying, FI, I’m trying. I don’t have an abundance of ‘free’ time at the moment as I’m working to a deadline and will be until the end of April. I know I owe you a post or two. - Jesse. I hope you find time to address my comments in post # 414. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049.md?page=23)