# Noone is born atheist **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 20, 2008, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049 "2008-12-20T07:03:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Pazu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pazu/32/15522_2.png) [@Pazu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pazu)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/481 "2008-12-31T20:12:52Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Do you fear god? Christianity is based on the carrot and stick of love and fear; obey god and he will love you, reject god and he will punish you forever. Surely you must agree that fear is a major part of Christian belief. This is such an awesome username/post combo. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/482 "2008-12-31T20:32:16Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Do you fear god?Christianity is based on the carrot and stick of love and fear; obey god and he will love you, reject god and he will punish you forever. Surely you must agree that fear is a major part of Christian belief. Greetings FI! No, I don’t ‘fear God,’ I have no reason to ‘fear God,’ but I definitely REVERE Him, (which is a better/more accurate translation from the original language, by the way), and I love Him. No, I don’t agree that ‘Fear is a major part of Christian belief.’ **The FIRST COMMANDMENT is to LOVE GOD, and ‘Perfect love casts out fear.’** God The Father _is_ my Father, and I love to use the term ‘Abba’ (more like ‘Daddy’) when I pray to Him through Jesus Christ our Lord, Who is like my elder Brother. The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are my first family. LOVE is the predominant feeling in every interaction I have with any part of GOD. The LOVE of GOD is so… all encompassing, I wish that you could/would want to experience it. \*\*It is the WILL OF GOD that 'None be _destroyed_ \*\*(NO ONE is tortured ‘forever’ that’s nonsense!) **but that _ALL_ attain to repentance.’** YHWH is _not_ the ogre you believe Him to be, He is your Father and He loves you - and He wants you to _know_ it. Love - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/483 "2008-12-31T20:54:55Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > No, I don’t ‘fear God,’ I have no reason to ‘fear God,’… So what should we make of Christ’s words in Luke 12:5? > [@](#): > > But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. Is it OK to pick and choose which commandments of Jesus we will follow? ---
**Author:** ![Fantome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/484 "2008-12-31T21:02:55Z")
**Jesse Leigh** , **Meatros** clearly explained to you how you have contradicted yourself regarding telling him to do his own homework and read certain Bible parts after he asked you to answer questions regarding Bible interpretations. He pointed out how according to you, he wouldn’t be able to do so anyway: > [@](#): > > NO true understanding of the Bible is possible without direct Revelation from GOD. > > I’m really not interested in human interpretation. How about confronting this contradiction instead of glossing over it? ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/485 "2008-12-31T21:26:23Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So what should we make of Christ’s words in Luke 12:5?Is it OK to pick and choose which commandments of Jesus we will follow? Of course it isn’t, but as I’ve already explained, the word ‘fear’ that is in many Bible translations in reference to GOD is a bad translation from the original Greek, unfortunately. The Greek word in Luke 12:5 **φόβος** (revere) is what is meant here, but the original RCC translators chose to render it ‘fear’ instead. The KJV was translated at a time when the church still found it advantageous to put forth the false doctrine of a literal eternal torturous fate for all those who didn’t toe the line - pardon the cliché. **We are to revere GOD, certainly, but His first Commandment is that we should LOVE Him**. I don’t know how you personally feel, but it’s difficult to truly love someone, anyone, of whom you are afraid - as we understand the meaning of the word. GOD never intended this. The _depth_ of our reverence, however, should not be taken lightly. After all, GOD _is_ GOD. - Omiscient, Omnipotent, and Omnipresent, GOD expects to be \*\*‘All things to all people.’ \*\* OTOH, GOD tells us **we are His ‘Beloved,’** and since you are a male, were you to Love Him, GOD would consider you **‘A son.’** Love - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/486 "2008-12-31T21:40:13Z")
> [@Fantome](#): > > **Jesse Leigh** , **Meatros** clearly explained to you how you have contradicted yourself regarding telling him to do his own homework and read certain Bible parts after he asked you to answer questions regarding Bible interpretations. He pointed out how according to you, he wouldn’t be able to do so anyway: > > How about confronting this contradiction instead of glossing over it? Greetings Fantome! I don’t know you, so I will explain how I view my presence and interactions on this forum. There are those who ask and wish to dive deeper into the well and who come here, as I myself do, in search of truth and deeper understanding between people, and most of them are decent people who know we’re all on the same level and on the same journey. I’m more than happy to converse, debate, and yes, learn from such people. There are others, however, whom I refuse to engage after a time because it becomes apparent to me that their only interest is in stirring up contention. I ignore such people. If I am wrong about their intention then I am not the person they should be enquiring of regardless since the Spirit advises me otherwise, and I _always_ listen to Him. If you wish to question me yourself, bearing in mind what I’ve said here, I will be more than happy to answer you with the same respect and in the same spirit in which you ask your question(s). Agape - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Fantome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/487 "2008-12-31T21:46:41Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > If you wish to question me yourself, bearing in mind what I’ve said here, I will be more than happy to answer you with the same respect and in the same spirit in which you ask your question(s). > > Agape - Jesse. Sounds good. Okay, I’d like to know why when **Meatros** asked about your interpretation of particular Bible passages you told him to do his own homework and read it for himself when you earlier declared: > [@](#): > > NO true understanding of the Bible is possible without direct Revelation from GOD. > > I’m really not interested in human interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![Pazu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pazu/32/15522_2.png) [@Pazu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pazu)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/488 "2008-12-31T21:46:42Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > Of course it isn’t, but as I’ve already explained, the word ‘fear’ that is in many Bible translations in reference to GOD is a bad translation from the original Greek, unfortunately. The Greek word in Luke 12:5 **φόβος** (revere) is what is meant here, but the original RCC translators chose to render it ‘fear’ instead. I’d like a cite on this, since I’ve never encountered the Greek word _phobos_ to mean anything other than fear or terror in any context. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/489 "2008-12-31T21:57:12Z")
> [@Fantome](#): > > Sounds good. Okay, I’d like to know why when **Meatros** asked about your interpretation of particular Bible passages you told him to do his own homework and read it for himself when you earlier declared: Fantome, Because I’ve already answered and addressed both questions several times in this thread already, clearly, concisely, and thoroughly. I have nothing more to add and all he need do is read it. I don’t believe that’s asking too much of anyone. Agape - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/490 "2008-12-31T21:59:50Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > Obviously you haven’t read the contents of this thread. I have explained, more than once, that hell (in Hebrew ‘Sheol’ - in Greek - ‘Hades’) is simply the common grave of all mankind. Please don’t argue just for the sake of it - I don’t have time for this. Oh I have read the contents of this thread. You’ve said that’s what you believe, but this not what a significant portion of Christianity believes. > [@](#): > > Google it. The amount of available information there is staggering. I have, and no where have I found that the Crusaders burned 65 million people at the stake. Anywhere. So give me just one link that says this, and I promise I won’t think you’re pulling numbers out of think air to justify your beliefs. > [@](#): > > Again, Google it. Atheism is considered aberrant by 95% of the world’s population. Oh now it’s aberrant? 95%? Hmm, a quick check on google reveals that 11.9% of the world’s population is non-religious, with 2.3% atheist. So either a percentage of the non-religious think that atheists are aberrant, or you’re pulling numbers out of thin air again. And no where can I find anything that says those who are religious all consider atheists to be aberrant, so if you could just find me something for that… > [@](#): > > Is that a fact? Perhaps I should refrain from writing books for adults in order to spend more time here with the ignorant. What d’you think? I am not presently in Africa, the Middle East, Eastern Europe, India, Sri Lanka, or anywhere else in the ‘third world.’ My present assignment is in the mountains in Northern Canada where there is plenty of work to do amongst the affluent, overfed, and intellectually arrogant. So you’re feeding orphans among the affluent? One would think the affluent can find their own food. And his comment wasn’t about whether or not Christians demanded conversion before food, his comment was that Christians concentrate on converting the poor, hungry, and ignorant more often, something you didn’t address. > [@](#): > > We were speaking about the absurdity of believing that the giving and/or receiving of a bowl of rice would result in a change of heart in another human being. There is daily bread and then there is the Bread of Life. If you don’t know the difference - Google it. Actually, you said > [@](#): > > Belief professed to gain a bowl of rice is no belief at all and it is useless to either party to pretend otherwise. and I pointed out that this pretend belief is not useless if it gets someone fed. If someone doesn’t believe in the Bread of Life then daily bread is the big thing. Hungry people will do whatever it takes to get some food, up to and including agreeing with the person talking about invisible people in the sky. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/491 "2008-12-31T22:07:41Z")
I’m not mad at God. Frankly, it’d be kinda cool if he existed. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/492 "2008-12-31T22:45:47Z")
> [@Pazu](#): > > I’d like a cite on this, since I’ve never encountered the Greek word _phobos_ to mean anything other than fear or terror in any context. Greetings Pazu! You won’t find the modern Greek word ‘Phobos’ in any Biblical manuscript. We are discussing text written in ancient Greek. Even the word ‘Revere’ appears as Σεβαστείτε today. The word ‘Phobos’ is rendered ‘Fear’ because it _is_ fear in modern Greek. If you wish to learn about and understand Biblical manuscripts you will have to familiarize yourself with ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. This generally takes years (I’ve been at it for thirty-four years and I’m still not fluent.) It’s one thing to speak Hebrew or Arabic in the sooks (marketplaces) in Israel today, or to go to Patmos or any other island in Greece and converse, but quite another to internalize the languages in which the oldest manuscripts we have are written. I have multiple interlinear concordances and books at home and my information on the ancient languages comes principally from them. A good place to start, if you don’t have the rare and expensive books, is to do a search on interlinear transliterations of The Dead Sea Scrolls. For the earliest Greek manuscripts, this book isn’t bad to start your collection. [http://www.logos.com/products/details/2122](http://www.logos.com/products/details/2122) I hope this helps. Agape - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/493 "2008-12-31T22:58:18Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > Greetings Fantome! > > I don’t know you, so I will explain how I view my presence and interactions on this forum. There are those who ask and wish to dive deeper into the well and who come here, as I myself do, in search of truth and deeper understanding between people, and most of them are decent people who know we’re all on the same level and on the same journey. I’m more than happy to converse, debate, and yes, learn from such people. > > There are others, however, whom I refuse to engage after a time because it becomes apparent to me that their only interest is in stirring up contention. I ignore such people. If I am wrong about their intention then I am not the person they should be enquiring of regardless since the Spirit advises me otherwise, and I _always_ listen to Him. > > If you wish to question me yourself, bearing in mind what I’ve said here, I will be more than happy to answer you with the same respect and in the same spirit in which you ask your question(s). > > Agape - Jesse. This seems like an unwarranted slam against my intentions. I have nothing but good intentions - to discuss beliefs different from my own. What I have observed is an inconsistency in what you are saying and I’m attempting to get you to clarify it. At least one other poster seems to agree with me that you aren’t being very clear. You seem to be doing a lot of assuming about me and my intentions. I realize that you are on the hot plate here, so I’m willing to overlook that - but I will say that my intent is to simply understand your point of view. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/494 "2008-12-31T23:00:30Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > Fantome, > > Because I’ve already answered and addressed both questions several times in this thread already, clearly, concisely, and thoroughly. I have nothing more to add and all he need do is read it. I don’t believe that’s asking too much of anyone. > > Agape - Jesse. The problem is that what you have clearly and concisely stated contradicts other things you have clearly and concisely stated. What you aren’t doing is addressing what I _at least percieved_ as an contradiction between your statements. You are merely implying that I’m ignorant of the bible or I have impure motives. I don’t find that particularly fair on your part, but I understand since you are getting grilled. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/495 "2008-12-31T23:21:31Z")
The verb _phobeo_ in Koine Greek means to flee in terror, to panic, to be terrified, to fear. That’s the definition given in Liddell and Scott, which is the definitive lexicon. I don’t know what kind of concordance you’re using, but it doesn’t correspond to any translation I’m familiar with. You do understand the difference between a concordance and a lexicon, don’t you? What translation of the New Testament are you using which corresponds to whatever concordance you’re using. That is, what version are you using which translates _phobethete_ in Luke 12 as “revere?” What dialect of “ancient Greek” have you studied? “Ancient Greek” can refer to any number of dialects or eras. It’s odd that you would use such vague terminology after having studied for over 30 years. By the way, the Vulgate translation of Luke 12:5 gives the Latin word _timete_ which means – wait for it — “be afraid.” In your favor, I’ll grant you that L&S gives a use about 7 or 8 definitions deep to refer to being in awe of a god, but it’s primary meaning is basically “panic.” and the sense of “awe” if connotes is fear. Your assertion that the verb _phobeo_ (which you confuse with the noun form _phobos_, but that’s a small thing) did not mean “fear” in Koine, or that it does not have that meaning in Luke 12 is completely erroneous. If you want to discuss the original Greek of the New Testament there are people here who have actually had formal training in it, and can do that with you (I’m not the only one), but don’t try to fake it. People don’t tend to be successful at faking knowledge on this board. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/496 "2008-12-31T23:42:12Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > Oh I have read the contents of this thread. You’ve said that’s what you believe, but this not what a significant portion of Christianity believes. > > **This is nonsensical. What words, pray tell, do your sources (?) tell you are in the earliest manuscripts from which I took the ones I posted here?** > > I have, and no where have I found that the Crusaders burned 65 million people at the stake. Anywhere. So give me just one link that says this, and I promise I won’t think you’re pulling numbers out of think air to justify your beliefs. > > My beliefs have nothing to do with the Crusades, which had nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus Christ who commanded us _not_ to murder. My information comes from material I read decades ago and I don’t have time to look through all my books to satistfy your curiosity. So, you can disregard my comment as unsubstantialted if you wish. I’ll take care, henceforth, not to provide you with information that isn’t readily available on the Internet - however poor a source it is on ancient stats. > > Oh now it’s aberrant? 95%? Hmm, a quick check on google reveals that 11.9% of the world’s population is non-religious, with 2.3% atheist. So either a percentage of the non-religious think that atheists are aberrant, or you’re pulling numbers out of thin air again. And no where can I find anything that says those who are religious all consider atheists to be aberrant, so if you could just find me something for that… > > **My sources say that 95% of the population of the world believes in a ‘Higher Power.’ Atheism is considered aberrant because of its fruit. Consider,** > > "According to University of Hawai’i political scientist Rudolph J. Rummel, the total number (of people) killed in all of human history is estimated to be about 284,638,000. Of that number, 151,491,000 were killed during the past 100 years. The single largest killer in all of human history is, by far, \*\*atheistic \*\*Communism… with 110,000,000… over one third of the people ever killed! If we add to that number just two other regimes where religion of any sort was strongly discouraged, Nazi Germany, and Communist China, the number rises to 141,160,000. Almost 50% or the killings in human history were committed in the last 100 years by regimes that actively promoted **atheism** or strongly discouraged religion. We have not considered the over one billion abortions, where Christianity appears particularly unlwelcome. When the murders of history are tallied up, it is very clear that **atheism is the most dangerous philosophy ever embraced by humanity."** [http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM](http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM) > > So you’re feeding orphans among the affluent? > > **No, our orphan ministry is global in scope and a large portion of the proceeds from my books, CD’s, and photographic material go toward funding this part of our ministry.** > > One would think the affluent can find their own food. > > **The food they need is not ‘The food that perishes.’** > > And his comment wasn’t about whether or not Christians demanded conversion before food, his comment was that Christians concentrate on converting the poor, hungry, and ignorant more often, something you didn’t address. > > **I did address it. I disagree. As I’ve (once again) repeatedly explained, Christians don’t ‘Convert’ people, only God had that power. Christian missionaries merely minister to (care for) these people, sowing seeds of love, which may take root in some but not in others. This applies to rich and poor alike.** > > Actually, you said and I pointed out that this pretend belief is not useless if it gets someone fed. If someone doesn’t believe in the Bread of Life then daily bread is the big thing. Hungry people will do whatever it takes to get some food, up to and including agreeing with the person talking about invisible people in the sky. **Spoken as only someone with no practical experience whatsoever could speak. The Gospel isn’t preached prior to feeding hungry people. Christ Himself fed the people first and we follow His example. ‘Agreement’ with Christianity is _never_ necessary for a Christian to feed, clothe, or comfort anybody - anywhere. If people (rich or poor) are drawn to Christ through His followers, it is because of the LOVE that is shown to them by them, and that’s it, and that’s all.** Agape - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Fantome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/497 "2008-12-31T23:50:06Z")
Jesse, would you mind taking the time to use correct coding to quote others? It’s difficult to keep up with what you are saying, the person you’re quoting, and what you’re quoting from some other source on the internet. Using bold letters as you’re doing helps somewhat, but it can still be confusing. I’m guessing you’re going to be sticking around here so learning now rather than later would be helpful to all. See post #490 a few posts above yours to see how it should be done. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/498 "2008-12-31T23:50:18Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The verb _phobeo_ in Koine Greek means to flee in terror, to panic, to be terrified, to fear. That’s the definition given in Liddell and Scott, which is the definitive lexicon. I don’t know what kind of concordance you’re using, but it doesn’t correspond to any translation I’m familiar with. You do understand the difference between a concordance and a lexicon, don’t you? What translation of the New Testament are you using which corresponds to whatever concordance you’re using. That is, what version are you using which translates _phobethete_ in Luke 12 as “revere?” > > What dialect of “ancient Greek” have you studied? “Ancient Greek” can refer to any number of dialects or eras. It’s odd that you would use such vague terminology after having studied for over 30 years. > > By the way, the Vulgate translation of Luke 12:5 gives the Latin word _timete_ which means – wait for it — “be afraid.” > > In your favor, I’ll grant you that L&S gives a use about 7 or 8 definitions deep to refer to being in awe of a god, but it’s primary meaning is basically “panic.” and the sense of “awe” if connotes is fear. > > Your assertion that the verb _phobeo_ (which you confuse with the noun form _phobos_, but that’s a small thing) did not mean “fear” in Koine, or that it does not have that meaning in Luke 12 is completely erroneous. > > If you want to discuss the original Greek of the New Testament there are people here who have actually had formal training in it, and can do that with you (I’m not the only one), but don’t try to fake it. People don’t tend to be successful at faking knowledge on this board. I thought we _were_ discussing original Greek and Hebrew, albeit two words only , and one of which has been all but discarded by the forum members (Sheol). I too have had formal training in these languages and have lived in the Middle East. I don’t require to ‘fake it’ as you so charitably put it. - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2009, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/499 "2009-01-01T00:04:43Z")
> [@Fantome](#): > > Jesse, would you mind taking the time to use correct coding to quote others? It’s difficult to keep up with what you are saying, the person you’re quoting, and what you’re quoting from some other source on the internet. Using bold letters as you’re doing helps somewhat, but it can still be confusing. I’m guessing you’re going to be sticking around here so learning now rather than later would be helpful to all. See post #490 a few posts above yours to see how it should be done. I’ll do my best, but as for ‘sticking around here,’ I doubt it. I have my own forum to run, 5,200 pages of manuscript to tidy up before my publisher’s deadline, a family I must tend to, and a ministry to fulfil. I had a bit of a break over Christmas, and since I enjoy the snopes newsletter I came to the forum to see what it was like. I have participated far more than I intended to, but I felt led to and so I did my part. If I’m spared, I’ll no doubt look in from time to time, but I simply don’t have the time to be a regular poster on a regular basis. The format of my forum is quite different from this one, so I apologize for any annoyance my attempts at making sense of this place have caused you. Agape - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Pazu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pazu/32/15522_2.png) [@Pazu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pazu)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2009, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/500 "2009-01-01T00:26:40Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > You won’t find the modern Greek word ‘Phobos’ in any Biblical manuscript. We are discussing text written in ancient Greek. Even the word ‘Revere’ appears as Σεβαστείτε today. The word ‘Phobos’ is rendered ‘Fear’ because it _is_ fear in modern Greek. If you wish to learn about and understand Biblical manuscripts you will have to familiarize yourself with ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. This generally takes years (I’ve been at it for thirty-four years and I’m still not fluent.) It’s one thing to speak Hebrew or Arabic in the sooks (marketplaces) in Israel today, or to go to Patmos or any other island in Greece and converse, but quite another to internalize the languages in which the oldest manuscripts we have are written. > > I have multiple interlinear concordances and books at home and my information on the ancient languages comes principally from them. A good place to start, if you don’t have the rare and expensive books, is to do a search on interlinear transliterations of The Dead Sea Scrolls. For the earliest Greek manuscripts, this book isn’t bad to start your collection. [http://www.logos.com/products/details/2122](http://www.logos.com/products/details/2122) > > I hope this helps. **Jesse** , thank you for your response. It seems to me, however, that you’re basically saying that unless I devote years of study to multiple ancient languages, I can’t be expected to understand why this particular word in ancient Greek, traditionally translated as “fear”, should really be understood to mean “reverence”. It seems to me that **Diogenes** asked some very good questions in his last post. Could you address those? Finally, while I fully admit that your expertise with ancient Greek doubtless dwarfs mine, I would like to add an additional question. In Greek (pre-Christian) mythology, the war god Ares had two sons, Phobos and Deimos (usually translated as Fear and Terror). I had assumed that the name Phobos was not modern Greek, given its origin. If so, are you then contending that: a) Phobos actually had a different name in ancient Greek? or b) One of Ares’s sons was actually named “Reverence”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049.md?page=26)