# Noone is born atheist **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 20, 2008, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049 "2008-12-20T07:03:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2008, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/81 "2008-12-20T23:24:44Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I apologise, but could you be more expansive on this? Would that hold true for a brainwashing in favour of what you believe is right? Adding information is one thing, such as the dog appears to be pet-able without it biting your head off. Taking information away, such as stating there is nothing wrong with that dog when the child knows that there is evil radiating from it is harming that child by blinding them to the presents of evil. The knowledge of how to sense evil is being take from them. > [@](#): > > Do you mean “as well as” to mean an alternate but still reason for being a “true parent”, or a required additional? That is to say, could an adoptive parent be a “true parent”, not being producer of either seed or egg, While God can allow anything, I don’t believe a adoptive parent has this special internal bond, this does not discredit their love for the child, and the bond that love creates. > [@](#): > > and could a rapist be one, Yes > [@](#): > > not having a loving interative relationship with a resulting child? I believe this bond exists even if the child never knew his parent, even decades later something is felt between parent and child. > [@](#): > > And, I feel reasonably certain guessing, the means by which being a “true parent” allows this advantage is spiritual in nature? Parents are suppose to raise the children, this is the reason for this ‘tie’ between parent and child. > [@](#): > > So it isn’t a simple agreement? There is a possibility that, having done this, and your prayers answered, it becomes revealed that the dog was just a dog? A child can simply be wrong about this? A child may lie about it, but disregarding that, what the child feels is real, in that the feelings about this dog are real. For some reason that child feels evil from that dog. If that is a demon in the dog, a past experience with a demon in a dog, or fear of the physical animal will have to be prayfully considered. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2008, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/82 "2008-12-20T23:50:15Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > You have deleted the 2 scriptural cites I have included in your quote. If you are going to disregard the Word of God, how would you believe the word of man about God. Funny thing is, that the part he deleted IS the word of man about [some people’s concept] of God. Not that **Acid Lamp** was justified in tampering with your text. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2008, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/83 "2008-12-20T23:57:46Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Yeah, that seems the likeliest thinking. Surely the child wasn’t thinking that if an orange seed grows into an orange tree, a toy grows into a toy tree. Demons makes a lot more sense. > > Daniel Of course! The Orange Demons must be propitiated in order for more oranges to be granted to that demon-bowin-down-to orange farmer. ---
**Author:** ![Diz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@Diz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diz)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/84 "2008-12-21T00:05:28Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > While I don’t know if it’s using subspace or alpha-hiccup waves, there is some idea in scriptures about it’s existence. > … By definition, something that affects the physical world must be detectable and measurable. Out of curiosity, do you believe that science will one day discover the existence of such a connection between the soul and the physical body in the same way that the radio waves can be detected in your analogy with the Mars rover? Regarding your belief that knowledge of God occurs at conception, what if someone claimed to posses memories going all the way back to the point of conception? If it is the soul and not the physical brain that contains knowledge and memories, this should be possible, correct? Would you believe them? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/85 "2008-12-21T00:17:50Z")
> [@Diz](#): > > By definition, something that affects the physical world must be detectable and measurable. I’m not sure this is always true as somethings can’t be measured, such as the position and velocity of a subatomic partial. Bringing this into the spiritual, how does the soul control the body, how does spirits effect them, how does God manipulate physical things. > [@](#): > > Out of curiosity, do you believe that science will one day discover the existence of such a connection between the soul and the physical body in the same way that the radio waves can be detected in your analogy with the Mars rover? No, from my understanding using science to measure the spiritual it is intentionally frustrated by God. > [@](#): > > Regarding your belief that knowledge of God occurs at conception, what if someone claimed to posses memories going all the way back to the point of conception? If it is the soul and not the physical brain that contains knowledge and memories, this should be possible, correct? Would you believe them? My understanding is to some degree we all have a distant memory of God and His Love, which is what causes us to seek Him later in life, it’s a homing beacon. Much information is lost IMHO in the transition into the body and it’s unlikely that much of that information would survive, but some people know that they have a calling from God, information and promises given by God at their creation, others remember time in the womb, so it’s not unprecedented. I may believe them, it depends on many things. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/86 "2008-12-21T00:46:47Z")
Humans were around for thousands of years before they cobbled together a monotheistic God concept, so I see no reason the monotheistic God concept is inherent. Clearly this calls for one of those “separated at birth” studies where one twin ends up a Christian and the other has a shrine to Zeus in his garage. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/87 "2008-12-21T00:54:59Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > My understanding is to some degree we all have a distant memory of God and His Love, which is what causes us to seek Him later in life, it’s a homing beacon. Much information is lost IMHO in the transition into the body and it’s unlikely that much of that information would survive, but some people know that they have a calling from God, information and promises given by God at their creation, others remember time in the womb, so it’s not unprecedented. I may believe them, it depends on many things. Oh I get it. You’re [Jon Hendricks](http://www.seeklyrics.com/lyrics/The-Manhattan-Transfer/Sing-Joy-Spring.html) > [@Jon Hendricks in Sing Joy Spring](#): > > It’s quite a [lift] havin’ the gift of laughter > I’m a man who knows in a > minute I can tell y’just exactly how the story goes > It involves a firm conviction in another > previous life givin’ your mind a chance to fly > Fly aroun’ the universe investigatin’ other > galaxies n’ certain other subtle > types o’life tryin’ t’dig it gettin’ > pretty well-acquainted with a lot of > other strife > an’ pretty much acquirin’ > yourself plenty of education > pretty soon here comes earth birth > ‘n then y’ready t’put it all t’work > but soon as you’re finished bein’ born > you start forgettin’ what you knew > 'Cause you’re another kinda you - a > reincarnation manifestation > of spirit in sensation Nice work on _Four Brothers_, btw. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/88 "2008-12-21T01:06:03Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Humans were around for thousands of years before they cobbled together a monotheistic God concept, so I see no reason the monotheistic God concept is inherent. Clearly this calls for one of those “separated at birth” studies where one twin ends up a Christian and the other has a shrine to Zeus in his garage. Not exactly what you asked, but [this study](http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/002666.html) claims to demonstrate that religious belief in general is heritable. It doesn’t drill down to the level of monotheism vs. polytheism, though. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/89 "2008-12-21T01:27:42Z")
> [@Cosmic Relief](#): > > Not exactly what you asked, but [this study](http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/002666.html) claims to demonstrate that religious belief in general is heritable. It doesn’t drill down to the level of monotheism vs. polytheism, though. Well, I can buy that a tendency to believe is inheritable (as are tendencies toward mental illness and substance abuse) but since the specifics of what is believed are fluid, the fact that a lot of people believe in God says nothing about whether or not God exists. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Haddock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@Captain\_Haddock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Haddock)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/90 "2008-12-21T02:17:41Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I said that the innate sense of God comes from conception, not birth. Can’t remember experiencing God as a zygote either. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/91 "2008-12-21T02:30:56Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > The OP is ridiculous. It’s like one of these OPs that say “this is my opinion, therefore it is fact.” I’m sure there are people born with a tendency toward religion just like there are people born without, but no one is born believing in any established earthly religion. Like Diogenes said up thread, no one is born a theist and thus we are all quite literally born atheists. Since we have no way to test the recently born to come to some scientific conclusion about this, isn’t this just another meme? It seems like the obvious conclusion but we don’t really have any way of knowing do we? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/92 "2008-12-21T02:36:45Z")
> [@Lobsang](#): > > I still disagree. Children are not born unsure whether God exists or not - this is agnosticism. CHildren are born completely lacking any concept of an invisible higher power. To me this is closer to Atheism than it is to Agnosticism. And you’re sure of this because? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/93 "2008-12-21T02:39:42Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > ? Please remember our [rules regarding the quote tags](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=7697048#post7697048). If you decide to drop text from a quoted portion of a post, either use ellipses […} or the pseudo html tag [\] or some similar indication that you have changed the actual text. I realize that this does not appear to have been done maliciously and that the quoted post is directly above your quote of it, but we would still prefer that you stick to the rules in this regard. [/Modding] ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/94 "2008-12-21T02:52:43Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by **Captain Haddock** > > Can’t remember experiencing God as a zygote either. Sorry. I can. I distinctly remember trying to pray, and thinking, “oh crap, I don’t have hands to fold or knees to bend” It was quite traumatic for a little zygote like me. Years later my therapist said. “That never happened you crazy bastard, stop saying it” That seemed to help ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/95 "2008-12-21T02:55:50Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Going a bit further, did you ever go someplace and you just felt a evil or cold feeling, you sense something bad about a area? Yes, Absolutely. It was in the porta potty at an outdoor weekend music festival. ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/96 "2008-12-21T03:13:34Z")
We are all born ignorant. [Cite](http://www.onion.demon.co.uk/theonion/other/babies/stupidbabies.htm) Later we learn things. Some of what we learn is true, some isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/97 "2008-12-21T03:40:32Z")
**Kanicbird** , the **demitasse** was sitting on my chest and banging the vacuum cleaner on the floor. Since it was 10 PM, I put her to bed. Can she go over your place, stay up all night, dance on your head, and annoy your neighbors before I brainwash her and stunt her spirituality again tomorrow night? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/98 "2008-12-21T04:11:10Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > For one Adam and Eve. Both at their conception knew God and walked with Him. Adam and Eve were not conceived, at least not as it is currently done, they were made whole. So they are rather lousy examples of any person conceived knowing God. > [@](#): > > It was only after they got involved with Satan that they lost that connectivity with God. … (Hope I did that right) Adam and Eve lost connectivity with God because he threw them out of Eden and turned his back on them. Satan may have had a hand in it, but if God hadn’t thrown the grandfather of all hissy fits over one apple… > [@](#): > > This I believe is a analogy to our lives as well. We are conceived knowing God, but then get involved with other spirits, we are delivered (via birth) into a far different world, where we hear from others about God but don’t know Him personally. … So now there are other spirits in there other than God? Dang, busy place that womb. > [@](#): > > Also the Hebrew day fits this pattern. It starts as the sun goes down, this is conception and the fading glory of God (not that His glory fades, but our ability to perceive it does). We walk in darkness till the dawn, when Jesus enters our life and we walk in the light from that point on. Great analogy for me - I don’t walk in darkness after sunset because I don’t expect anyone, even God, to be responsible for my comfort. Therefore, I know how to turn on lights. ---
**Author:** ![Vox\_Imperatoris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Vox\_Imperatoris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vox_Imperatoris)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/99 "2008-12-21T04:21:15Z")
I don’t really know what we’re debating here, except arguing with the brick wall that is **kanicbird**. Valete, Vox Imperatoris ---
**Author:** ![LurkMeister](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@LurkMeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkMeister)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/100 "2008-12-21T05:14:00Z")
If I’m understanding **kanicbird** correctly, we know that God exists when we are conceived, but then as our brain develops we begin to doubt that God exists. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049.md?page=6)