# Noone is born atheist **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 20, 2008, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049 "2008-12-20T07:03:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/101 "2008-12-21T05:18:12Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I’m not sure this is always true as somethings can’t be measured, such as the position and velocity of a subatomic partial. Bringing this into the spiritual, how does the soul control the body, how does spirits effect them, how does God manipulate physical things. Well, yes–but either one can be measured, and experiments can be done to verify attributes of them. However, this point is made moot by: > [@](#): > > No, from my understanding using science to measure the spiritual it is intentionally frustrated by God. You realize that this God of yours is a crazy asshole the likes of which puts Coyote to shame, right? If he’s willing to fuck up research into something as innocuous as the relationship between the spirit and the material world, what makes you think he’s playing straight with you about anything? That is, why do you think you can trust him when he says that zygotes know his existence? Once you posit an all-powerful being who fucks around with knowledge to get his rocks off, you posit anything you’d like. Maybe he’s a ten-year-old kid with a really good computer, and we’re the latest Sims game. Maybe he’s actually Coyote, only meaner than we imagined. Maybe he’s something that makes Nyarolathotep look like Mrs. Butterworth. If he frustrates our understanding of the spiritual world via science, who’s to say how else he frustrates that understanding? Right now perhaps he’s laughing at all the rubes who take the Bible seriously. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/102 "2008-12-21T06:58:50Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > My view is everyone is conceived believing and knowing God and His Love. It is an indelible memory that acts as a beacon that is designed to draw us to God. As the Love of God becomes hidden, we seek out the next best thing we can find, the love from the mother, which is the only person we can connect with unless there are other siblings in the womb. This love draws us from the secret places in depths of the earth (Ps 139:15), into the body that God is knitting together in the womb (Ps 139:13). > > As we integrate into the body, we have to learn how to use it, how to think inside it, and often lose sight of the initial encounter with God, though the memory of His Love is there, it becomes distant. At birth, most of us, are in the ways of the flesh, which is the ways of man, only with a very distant memory of God. > > So in a way I would agree that, though at conception we know God, most of us at birth have forgotten Him and are just operating in a human level. > [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > > [@kanicbird](#): > > > > My view is everyone is conceived believing and knowing God and His Love. It is an indelible memory that acts as a beacon that is designed to draw us to God. As the Love of God becomes hidden, we seek out the next best thing we can find, the love from the mother, which is the only person we can connect with unless there are other siblings in the womb. > > > > As we integrate into the body, we have to learn how to use it, how to think inside it, and often lose sight of the initial encounter with God, though the memory of His Love is there, it becomes distant. At birth, most of us, are in the ways of the flesh, which is the ways of man, only with a very distant memory of God. > > > > So in a way I would agree that, though at conception we know God, most of us at birth have forgotten Him and are just operating in a human level. > > Cite? **Moderator’s Note:** It’s certainly permissible (and can even be desirable) to only quote part of a message in replying to it, but on the other hand it’s against the rules to _alter_ someone else’s message and pass it off as what they said. It would have been preferable if **Acid Lamp** had used some ellipses (…) or broken the message into multiple blocks or otherwise indicated that this was not in fact the entire message being quoted. > [@kanicbird](#): > > In the name of Jesus stop peddling your deceptions here. And on the other hand, it’s also against the rules to accuse another poster of lying in this forum. Both of you please be more careful in the future. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/103 "2008-12-21T07:00:28Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Please remember our [rules regarding the quote tags](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=7697048#post7697048). If you decide to drop text from a quoted portion of a post, either use ellipses […} or the pseudo html tag [\] or some similar indication that you have changed the actual text. > > I realize that this does not appear to have been done maliciously and that the quoted post is directly above your quote of it, but we would still prefer that you stick to the rules in this regard. > > [/Modding] :smack: And I suppose it’s also a good idea to read the _entire_ thread before I post to it. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/104 "2008-12-21T08:14:05Z")
The argument that “Everyone is born atheist” is not literally that at the moment the head pops out of the womb, the baby does not contain a belief state labeled “God” but rather, that the natural state of man is to be atheist and that it’s taken the active intervention of organized religion to deceive people from the truth. This is what I’m arguing against. If you look at human history and human development, people spontaneously come up with supernatural explanations for things as a matter of course and atheism is the thing which is foreign and must be taught. To deny this is a misunderstanding of both human nature and atheism. ---
**Author:** ![Ocean\_Annie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8797f3/32.png) [@Ocean\_Annie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ocean_Annie)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/105 "2008-12-21T08:40:52Z")
I believe we are the sum total of what we learn and like everything else, atheism is a learned belief. It is either a belief that results from reasoning or a belief that results from culture and upbringing, but either way it is learned. A person isn’t born an atheist anymore than s/he is born a theist. ---
**Author:** ![Hazle\_Weatherfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Hazle\_Weatherfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazle_Weatherfield)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/106 "2008-12-21T08:55:47Z")
Tabula rasa, baby! ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/107 "2008-12-21T09:00:02Z")
if you literally break the word down into a-theism then you can interpret it to mean the lack of a belief in a God but I don’t think this is a useful way to talk about atheism. If I made the claim that “I don’t think dinosaurs exist” then your natural first reaction might be “Well, what about all those fossils?”. If I went on about how Satan buried those fossils as a test of my faith, you could safely label me **a-dinosaur** as I’ve made an active assertion about how the world could be without dinosaurs. On the other hand, if I simply choose to ignore your question about the existence of fossils, it would be more accurate to label me as a **dinosaur denier**. Someone who doesn’t want to confront the issue of dinosaur existence. Furthermore, if I had simply never even heard of dinosaurs before and had no reason to suppose their existence, then it might be accurate to label me as a **dinosaur agnostic**. In each of these three cases, I don’t hold a belief that dinosaurs exist but these three lack of beliefs are of a very different nature and calling them all a-dinosaurism confuses the issue. It is not enough to claim that gods do not exist to become atheist, you must also provide a explanation that explains the evidence for the existence of gods. Any justifiable atheism must be at least about to adequately answer the following phenomena: ``` * Every single day, hundreds of faith healers across the globe cause countless miracles of healing * I had a dream about my Aunt Marge dying and when I woke up, I got a phone call that she got into a horrific car accident * Every time I go to the 5th floor of my office, I feel incredibly sad and lost. I later found out that someone had committed suicide on that floor. I had no idea it happened but I still felt the presence of his ghost. * My friend had a terminal cancer and the doctors told her that it was incurable but when she prayed to God, it miraculously went into remission. The doctors all said they had never seen anything like it. * When I rub my lucky coin 3 times in a clockwise fashion, I win much more at roulette * I can feel God guide me in my life and feel his presence in my soul. It’s impossible for such a feeling to be faked ``` What’s amazing about atheism is that it can adequately answer these seemingly amazing phenomena in a purely naturalistic manner. However, the answers to these questions are neither simple nor obvious. Any answer requires a great deal of sophisticated understanding of both philosophical and empirical matters and it’s the ability to answer these questions that separates genuine atheism from a simple denial of gods. Such a confusion does atheists and atheism no favors. Because this distinction is not made clear, many of the Christians I talk to believe that atheists are basically God deniers. Atheists are atheists because the implications of a God existing is so morally threatening that atheists must construct a psychological shield that justifies their immorality and secularism. The idea that atheists are actually capable of answering the preceding questions is so astounding that it’s never even considered. Atheists need to become much more clear about what atheism is and isn’t if they want atheism to be given the respect it deserves as an intellectual position. Atheism is not simply a denial of gods. Instead, it’s an active assertion that the universe can be explained better in the absence of gods. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/108 "2008-12-21T09:17:26Z")
Well, not all people use these words the same way. For example, many use “agnostic” to mean not only “I don’t have a belief one way or another” but also “Furthermore, I don’t believe it’s _possible_ to know (or have good reason for believing) one way or another”, which would be stronger then the illustration you’ve given. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/109 "2008-12-21T09:46:35Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > Well, not all people use these words the same way. For example, many use “agnostic” to mean not only “I don’t have a belief one way or another” but also “Furthermore, I don’t believe it’s _possible_ to know (or have good reason for believing) one way or another”, which would be stronger then the illustration you’ve given. True, but the argument that “Everyone is born atheist” deliberately confuses the absence of a belief in gods which babies have with the active assertion that no gods exist which atheists have and as a result, it’s a shoddy logical argument. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/110 "2008-12-21T09:53:43Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > True, but the argument that “Everyone is born atheist” deliberately confuses the absence of a belief in gods which babies have with the active assertion that no gods exist which atheists have and as a result, it’s a shoddy logical argument. That’s like saying that even though most people who haven’t ever heard of the Invisible Pink Unicorn aren’t IPU atheists because they don’t actively assert that there’s no IPU. People assert that there’s no god because _other_ people keep confronting them about it. Without the confrontation, they wouldn’t think about it to care. I don’t sit around actively disbelieving that there is a salt shaker hanging in air just behind my head, and I don’t actively disbelieve that there is a monster living in the sewer that takes picture of the soles of people’s shoes. These things just don’t occur to me to not believe in. There’s an infinite number of implausible things to not believe in. But if someone came to me asserting their existence without evidence or even any argument for plausibility, I’d _assert back_ that there is no such thing. I was just as much a disbeliever before as after. I didn’t only become an atheist in the after. Disbelief makes an atheist, not “assertion”. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/111 "2008-12-21T10:39:29Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > That’s like saying that even though most people who haven’t ever heard of the Invisible Pink Unicorn aren’t IPU atheists because they don’t actively assert that there’s no IPU. > > People assert that there’s no god because _other_ people keep confronting them about it. Without the confrontation, they wouldn’t think about it to care. I don’t sit around actively disbelieving that there is a salt shaker hanging in air just behind my head, and I don’t actively disbelieve that there is a monster living in the sewer that takes picture of the soles of people’s shoes. These things just don’t occur to me to not believe in. There’s an infinite number of implausible things to not believe in. But if someone came to me asserting their existence without evidence or even any argument for plausibility, I’d _assert back_ that there is no such thing. I was just as much a disbeliever before as after. I didn’t only become an atheist in the after. > > Disbelief makes an atheist, not “assertion”. People keep on asserting there is a god because the god hypothesis explains a large amount of disparate, supernatural phenomena. If we didn’t encounter anything we regarded as supernatural, we would have no need to invent a god explanation. Unless your atheism can explain the same set of phenomena, what you have is not atheism, it’s just denial. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/112 "2008-12-21T10:45:18Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > - I can feel God guide me in my life and feel his presence in my soul. It’s impossible for such a feeling to be faked Oh; well, then, I guess it’s impossible for God not to exist. Case closed. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/113 "2008-12-21T11:06:33Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > - When I rub my lucky coin 3 times in a clockwise fashion, I win much more at roulette When you say ‘much more’, do you mean much more than someone who never plays roulette, or do you have some other standard? ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/114 "2008-12-21T11:49:51Z")
I’m not the one making these assertions. I’m saying that these are the types of assertions that are made by people who are not atheist. ---
**Author:** ![Bites\_When\_Provoked](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bites_when_provoked/32/18073_2.png) [@Bites\_When\_Provoked](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bites_When_Provoked)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/115 "2008-12-21T11:50:58Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Oh Please yourself, by deleting, of all things, the scriptural cites you have revealed your hand. \*\* In the name of Jesus stop peddling your deceptions here.\*\* (Bolding mine.) Did you just try to _ **exorcise** _ a poster? :eek: 😕 ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/116 "2008-12-21T13:52:38Z")
> [@Vox\_Imperatoris](#): > > I don’t really know what we’re debating here, except arguing with the brick wall that is **kanicbird**. > > Valete, > Vox Imperatoris No kidding. We need to try and separate the actual discussion from testimony which is what **kb** seems prone to. Offering a personal opinion is fine. Referring to the Bible as the Word is just testifying. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/117 "2008-12-21T13:55:11Z")
> [@Bites\_When\_Provoked](#): > > (Bolding mine.) > > Did you just try to _ **exorcise** _ a poster? :eek: 😕 I have a poster from the original Exorcist! that relates …somehow ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/118 "2008-12-21T14:02:11Z")
> [@LurkMeister](#): > > If I’m understanding **kanicbird** correctly, we know that God exists when we are conceived, but then as our brain develops we begin to doubt that God exists. In a way, yes. Our brains work in this physical world, as we integrate more and more into it, we lose sight on the other aspects of us. Or to put it another way, a prince was taken from his family by the enemy when he was very young. When he was prince he was treated very well and was very much loved. The enemy subjected him to a very bitter life almost absent of love. Because the enemy knew who he was (the prince), they were particularly hard on him and did everything to destroy his former identity, and lower his sense of self worth below that of a animal. The prince grew up there as a slave and learned the ways of the enemy, his place there and eventually accepted it as reality, thinking it as normal to be so oppressed, and almost forgot about his past. At some time parts of his memory of his past activate, and when that happens the prince somehow knows there is something more, and he is called to seek out that Love he recalls and what the truth is. The enemy tries to discourage this, offering explanations, distractions, and ridiculing the prince trying to discourage or derail this seeking, possibly offering him status above that of a slave. For a while this attempt works, but eventually the prince knows that there is more and how he is living is not what it is suppose to be. In his seeking, and pushing through the enemy’s attempts to stop this, he discovers who he really is and the lie that the enemy has set up that he believed. He starts trying to get back. The King himself hears of his child trying to return, wanting to come home. The King sends His servants, some of which are working behind enemy lines, to help guide the prince back home. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/119 "2008-12-21T14:11:29Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > People keep on asserting there is a god because the god hypothesis explains a large amount of disparate, supernatural phenomena. No, it doesn’t. It just replaces a cumbersome label (“disparate supernatural phenomena”) with a short one (“God”), which incidentally in no way proves the “disparate supernatural phenomena”/“God” actually exists. > [@](#): > > If we didn’t encounter anything we regarded as supernatural, we would have no need to invent a god explanation. In our history, we’ve observed lots of things that we couldn’t explain, but we’ve gotten much much better at examining evidence and finding physical causes, so our need for a stopthink “God” hypothesis has shrunk considerably. It persists because people _want_ it to. > [@](#): > > Unless your atheism can explain the same set of phenomena, what you have is not atheism, it’s just denial. Examples, please, of things atheists cannot explain which a label of “God” effectively does. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/120 "2008-12-21T14:18:37Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Adam and Eve were not conceived, at least not as it is currently done, they were made whole. So they are rather lousy examples of any person conceived knowing God. I can understand your point, though I see the Bible as, among other things, showing us the pattern of our lives from conception, time in the womb, birth, instruction/rebellion, Jesus being born in one’s heart, walking in the Spirit. The major difference between Adam & Eve and us was they were free of original sin (and therefore free from birthing pains among other things). They were not conceived in captivity. We are subject to sins of our fathers, if our fathers sin, they sell themselves into captivity. This is why I believe that Jesus had to be conceived directly by the Holy Spirit, this way He was not subject to captivity based on sins of His Father, as His Father is God, not man. No where does the Word state that the sins of the mother are passed on, so while some believe Mary to be sinless, even if that were true, it doesn’t matter as she could jot pass on her sins to her Son. > [@](#): > > Adam and Eve lost connectivity with God because he threw them out of Eden and turned his back on them. Satan may have had a hand in it, but if God hadn’t thrown the grandfather of all hissy fits over one apple… It was not a apple, but the ‘fruit’ of the knowledge of good and evil. Fruit often refers to the resulting work or effects. Such as the fruit of the Holy Spirit is love, joy, etc. The fruit (or works) of ‘man’s’ knowledge of good and evil leads to bad things, hurt, pain, etc. By stepping outside the will of God for our lives and depending on ourselves (or Satan) we reap this ‘fruit’ which is our hardship in this life. > [@](#): > > So now there are other spirits in there other than God? Dang, busy place that womb. Yes, the womb is also a place underground (Ps 139:15). > [@](#): > > Great analogy for me - I don’t walk in darkness after sunset because I don’t expect anyone, even God, to be responsible for my comfort. Therefore, I know how to turn on lights. Yes you can light a lamp, but that can fail. When the sun come up we don’t need the lamp. BTW God is willing to be responsible for your comfort, and He can do a far better job of that then you can. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049.md?page=7)