# Noone is born atheist **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 20, 2008, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049 "2008-12-20T07:03:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/141 "2008-12-21T16:48:55Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Not everyone can learn science, so if science was the way to find God, not everyone could find Him, which would make God a crazy asshole. That’s why He makes it very simple to find Him, to just believe. Something everyone can do, even scientists can do this. Can you think of a better single way that anyone can seek out God, by some other method that would allow anyone to find Him, regardless of education level? Obviously it’s not that simple, because otherwise we wouldn’t be having this conversation. It’s also rather strange that there are so many other religions worldwide… ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/142 "2008-12-21T16:58:55Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > . . . and we got out of the stone age before anything resembling modern monotheism existed. This is speculation. We really have no idea when monotheism, modern or otherwise, began. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/143 "2008-12-21T17:01:50Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > This is speculation. We really have no idea when monotheism, modern or otherwise, began. This is true–but as I understand it, there’s evidence of polytheistic stone age cultures, but I’ve never heard of a monotheistic stone age culture. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/144 "2008-12-21T17:09:21Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > This is speculation. We really have no idea when monotheism, modern or otherwise, began. Even being generous and giving Zoroastrianism and its roots a start in 2000 BCE, that puts it well after the beginning of the bronze age. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/145 "2008-12-21T17:28:27Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Technically it’s afternoon here - what’s the system of greeting politeness for different timezones? 😉 > > I wasn’t accusing you of thinking any or all atheists were liars. I was accusing you of thinking that any or all atheists believed that people whose faith stems from personal experience are liars - that the atheists think the religious are liars, not that the atheists are themselves liars. As you yourself say, you have been called a liar (among other things, sadly); it is your apparent belief that the majority of atheists think that of you that I believe is harsh. Not at all. First off, it’s certainly possible that you are right, that you have truly experienced what you believe you did and interpreted it entirely correctly. I have no problem admitting to that possibility. And no, i’m not calling you a liar, i’m saying you’ve misunderstood, that you’ve misinterpeted events. Out of your three options you provide, that you are in error. I don’t think you’re being dishonest at all, nor do you seem particularly delusional to me. I just think you’ve misunderstood; which must be pretty much the position of _everyone_ towards people they disagree with on this issue. _Must_ be? Not so. There is most certainly the possibility i’m wrong. After all, if we accept that your personal experience might be faulty, then by the same token mine is equally likely to be flawed. I think you might need to get your money back from those mind-reading lessons. 😉 After all, a true religious experience would be some good evidence against my atheism - it would be silly for me to automatically and completely disregard anything that might be it, since otherwise i’d never know if I was wrong! Now, certainly, my atheism means that I have a certain amount of scepticism going into looking at it, but I would say that that’s a perfectly reasonable and “scientific” reaction; my ideas are based on all the evidence I have so far, but I am certainly willing to throw out all my theories if new, impressive counter-evidence pops up that they’re wrong. What exactly is the unscientific part? G’day Revenant Threshold! (How’s that for cross timezone conferencing? 🙂 ) I must say, you’re the most agreeable person I’ve ever had the privilege of disagreeing with on this subject. It would appear we agree on many points and I read your position as a seeker of truth. We share that. I too would throw out all my beliefs if someone proved to me they were wrong. That’s unlikely since my beliefs are founded on countless interactions with God, but you won’t hear me say this side of the grave that I know the whole truth about God’s Plan - I don’t. I know enough to try to live my life in a way that honors Him, and I fail, of course, as all humans do. I know enough of God’s Plan to preach the Gospel of Christ with confidence, but what humankind understands is so little compared to the Creator of the starfields. I find the people on this forum, so far, tend to dive deeper into the well than most and aren’t quite as quick to label and disparage. This is a novel experience for me, and a pleasant one since what I’m usually met with does nothing to further understanding, or bridge the distance between the gaps in our abilility to comprehend our differences. If there are many more here like you, I’m going to make myself comfortable, if that’s all right. Thirty-four years as a missionary and ten years running a Christian forum has taught me the ratio of ears to mouth. 😉 I look forward to getting to know you better. Love - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/146 "2008-12-21T17:29:01Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Even being generous and giving Zoroastrianism and its roots a start in 2000 BCE, that puts it well after the beginning of the bronze age. Why would we think that Zoroastrianism is the earliest monotheistic religion? (Depending on definition, I suppose it might be the first modern one.) **LHoD** ’s claim for evidence of stone age polytheism with no corresponding monotheism is more tantalizing, but I do not recall seeing any such evidence. (In fact, during an anthro course around 1970, I recall encountering a claim that monotheism appeared to predate polytheism, but it was outside reading not a textbook and I would have no way to actually cite it 38 years later.) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/147 "2008-12-21T17:35:02Z")
Then I invite Jesse to define what she thinks is the earliest possible beginning of the “right” religion (I’m assuming she thinks beliefs that don’t resemble JudeoChristianity in some way are false) and eagerly anticipate comparing it to the advent of bronze. ---
**Author:** ![100\_Moron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/fbc32d/32.png) [@100\_Moron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/100_Moron)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/148 "2008-12-21T17:52:30Z")
When we are born, we are not atheists or believers in God or a god. We operate at nothing more than the base instinct level. We eat. We sleep. We cry. We poop and pee all over ourselves and cry because we’ve pooped and peed all over ourselves. It is impossible for an infant to know anything about religion. It is _not_ instinctual. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/149 "2008-12-21T17:54:41Z")
> [@100\_Moron](#): > > When we are born, we are not atheists or believers in God or a god. We operate at nothing more than the base instinct level. We eat. We sleep. We cry. We poop and pee all over ourselves and cry because we’ve pooped and peed all over ourselves. Some of us maintain this behaviour through adulthood. ---
**Author:** ![100\_Moron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/fbc32d/32.png) [@100\_Moron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/100_Moron)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/150 "2008-12-21T18:00:18Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Some of us maintain this behaviour through adulthood. LOL! Yeah, but you have to be a NASA astronaut to poop and pee yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/151 "2008-12-21T18:18:38Z")
G’morning Bryan! Thank you for the invitation, I hope your day’s going well. I’m not a fan of the word ‘religion.’ My life experience has left me with the belief that there is The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit - all three connected but not co-equal. The Bible only tells us a little, the tip of the iceberg, if you will, and our relationship with God teaches us from there, but this side of translation we _still_ know next to nothing comparatively. We know enough to behave in the manner God wants us to - or to try to anyway - we all fail at it miserably because we’re human, but with a better future ahead as humankind is in the process of being ‘Transformed into the Image of Christ.’ (That’s Biblical.) God has written His Laws on the heart of _every_ human (that’s Biblical too) but He doesn’t tell us how those who don’t know His Name will be dealt with after this evanescent life is over. The Bible _is_ a book speaking to Jews in the OT and Christians in the NT, but God makes it clear that ‘Christ died once for ALL men.’ So, there is much we don’t know about God’s plans for others, but we do know His requirements for those of us with access to The Bible. The only ‘right religion’ as I understand it, is total _surrender_ (of ‘self’) and _trust_ in the God Who made us through Jesus Christ, His Son. Our job here on Earth is to 'Seek the Kingdom, preach the Kingdom, and strive to obey the Will of God - rather than our own - if it’s in opposition to His. Everything God asks of us is _always_ for us, and never something God is doing _to_ us just because He can. **God _is_ LOVE and His Will is that ‘All attain to everlasting life’** simply by obeying His Will, which is really just a sensible set of instructions for living, which, when followed, make life… awesome. They’re not oppressive in the least and that’s what I’d expect from our Father Who loves us. "Right religion’ doesn’t have a label and ‘God hates divisions and sects.’ The earliest Christians simply called God’s Way ‘The Way.’ I have no idea why bronze should be of interest to you. The Israelites were mining copper and working with bronze 3,500 years ago, perhaps before, I’d have to look that one up. How is this relevant to ‘Right religion’ or anything else to do with God? Curious - Jess. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/152 "2008-12-21T19:15:53Z")
> [@100\_Moron](#): > > When we are born, we are not atheists[…] It is impossible for an infant to know anything about religion. It is _not_ instinctual. I would say your second (quoted) sentence refutes your first. I see now that this is actually yet another ‘how do you define “atheist”?’ thread. You see, to myself, and most of the actual atheists who’ve commented in this thread, not believing in any gods _is all it takes to be an atheist_. It is not an active assertion. It is not a rejection of gods. It is not even a rational decision made after studying the available evidence. It is simply a lack of belief. Dogs, lizards, amoebas, tables and chairs? All atheists, because none believe in a god. Therefore I conclude that newborns are atheists as well, until they grow up a little and are convinced of a god by someone else. The phrase “no one is born an atheist” isn’t meant to elevate atheism to some sort of default, ‘natural’ state; but to counteract statements like **kanicbird** ’s, that we’re all somehow Christians deep in our soul, denying and fooling ourselves (I suppose with Satan’s help?). In fact, the point of the phrase is the exact opposite to what **Shalmanese** seems to think. It is not a claim for atheism as the natural state of affairs, bastardized by religious indoctrination, but to refute those exact same claims as made by Christians. I.e., that every baby naturally loves Jesus, and all us infidels shape them into atheist thugs with the help of Satan. Also, this: > [@Shalmanese](#): > > Atheists need to become much more clear about what atheism is and isn’t if they want atheism to be given the respect it deserves as an intellectual position. Atheism is not simply a denial of gods. Instead, it’s an active assertion that the universe can be explained better in the absence of gods. Is freaking ridiculous! Atheists need to come up with a better definition of what they are, because the one everyone keeps telling you doesn’t fit the argument you’re trying to make? How about make a better argument, instead of trying to define what I am for me? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/153 "2008-12-21T19:43:56Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > Atheists need to become much more clear about what atheism is and isn’t if they want atheism to be given the respect it deserves as an intellectual position. Atheism is not simply a denial of gods. Instead, it’s an active assertion that the universe can be explained better in the absence of gods. If someone says they’re a Christian there’s still a lot more to find out about that person and their belief system isn’t there? I don’t think atheism requires one clear all encompassing definition. It merely gives you a reference point from which to continue. If I consciously enter into a discussion with someone I assume part of the responsibility of trying to clarify and understand their position. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/154 "2008-12-21T19:58:17Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > G’morning Bryan! > > Thank you for the invitation, I hope your day’s going well. > > I’m not a fan of the word ‘religion.’ My life experience has left me with the belief that there is The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit - all three connected but not co-equal. I have no problem accepting that humans believe various things across a colourful spectrum, but it’s unclear to me that any of them are provable in any kind of objective way. It’s entirely possible that even if God exists, that every single human religion has been completely wrong about God’s true nature. > [@](#): > > I have no idea why bronze should be of interest to you. The Israelites were mining copper and working with bronze 3,500 years ago, perhaps before, I’d have to look that one up. How is this relevant to ‘Right religion’ or anything else to do with God? Your earlier statement, to Revenant Threshold: > [@](#): > > Because you don’t believe in God or a god, anything outside of your accepted belief system must be erroneous - or misinterpreted. If all scientists thought like you, we’d still be in the stone age. “Stone age” and “bronze age” have actual meanings supported by well-researched facts, while religious beliefs are endlessly rubbery in comparison. If you’re going to make bold statements about science, I consider it fair game to comment on factual errors. If you instead stay with explorations of the trinity, then all I can say is that it all seems so very arbitrary to me, and others who call themselves Christians could easily disagree with you. Besides, the fact that there is material not currently explainable by science isn’t proof of God. Or if it is, I’d ask why it isn’t also proof of Zeus, or Odin, or any other deity-label. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/155 "2008-12-21T20:02:37Z")
Incidentally, DrCube, how would one describe a person who believes every human religion is a self-delusional waste of time, but is indifferent to the possible existence of a god or gods? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/156 "2008-12-21T20:15:36Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > But I can’t “just believe.” I’ve tried. It doesn’t work for me. Perhaps not at this time, but God works unseen to bring His children home. It is not always in the timing you expect. If your attempt to seek God had been honest seeking of your heart, asking God to reveal Himself to you, I believe you will find Him. > [@](#): > > And what do you “just believe” in? Coyote? A ten-year-old boy with a powerful gaming computer? Nyarolathotep? Yahweh? The Force? ALl of them simultaneously? Jesus would do nicely and save a lot of trouble, but seeking the creator of Heaven and Earth would be a good start. > [@](#): > > I’d assume an all-powerful God could make science be one path among many to finding It. No quite the opposite, there is only one way to God, and that is through His Son Jesus. God keeps His patterns, there is one way, by faith, that we come to Him by. [QUOTE=Lightin’] . ..It’s also rather strange that there are so many other religions worldwide… [/QUOTE] Not that strange at all as there are many spirits. But no other faith or god is comparable, accept Jesus as your Lord and you have eternal salvation which can never be taken away. No rules, no forced prayers, just one simple act of surrender. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/157 "2008-12-21T20:22:52Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > The phrase “no one is born an atheist” isn’t meant to elevate atheism to some sort of default, ‘natural’ state; but to counteract statements like **kanicbird** ’s, that we’re all somehow Christians deep in our soul, denying and fooling ourselves (I suppose with Satan’s help?). Yes, Atheism is a form of the spirit of the Antichrist, a demonically inspired belief that there is nothing but this physical world, or at least no God (and therefore no Christ aka Antichrist). It is designed to blind a person to the spiritual and not even have them look for God or spiritual ‘reality’. It is a false doctrine, a belief system taught by deceiving spirits. It’s a further lie of the enemy that atheism is not a belief system. It hinders the person from accessing the distant memories of the Love of God and knowledge of God, and acts to discredit anything that may lead the person to God. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/158 "2008-12-21T20:24:40Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Yes, Atheism is a form of the spirit of the Antichrist, a demonically inspired belief that there is nothing but this physical world, or at least no God (and therefore no Christ aka Antichrist). It is designed to blind a person to the spiritual and not even have them look for God or spiritual ‘reality’. It is a false doctrine, a belief system taught by deceiving spirits. It’s a further lie of the enemy that atheism is not a belief system. It hinders the person from accessing the distant memories of the Love of God and knowledge of God, and acts to discredit anything that may lead the person to God. Mmmmwwwaahahahahahahaha… ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/159 "2008-12-21T20:41:33Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Yes, Atheism is a form of the spirit of the Antichrist, a demonically inspired belief that there is nothing but this physical world, or at least no God (and therefore no Christ aka Antichrist). It is designed to blind a person to the spiritual and not even have them look for God or spiritual ‘reality’. It is a false doctrine, a belief system taught by deceiving spirits. It’s a further lie of the enemy that atheism is not a belief system. It hinders the person from accessing the distant memories of the Love of God and knowledge of God, and acts to discredit anything that may lead the person to God. Sounds okay to me. I don’t see religion curing cancer anytime soon, but science has a pretty good shot at it. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/160 "2008-12-21T20:47:10Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Yes, Atheism is a form of the spirit of the Antichrist, a demonically inspired belief that there is nothing but this physical world, or at least no God (and therefore no Christ aka Antichrist). It is designed to blind a person to the spiritual and not even have them look for God or spiritual ‘reality’. It is a false doctrine, a belief system taught by deceiving spirits. It’s a further lie of the enemy that atheism is not a belief system. It hinders the person from accessing the distant memories of the Love of God and knowledge of God, and acts to discredit anything that may lead the person to God. I think you may be on to something. The best way for the Antichrist to acheive this would be to have his followers spout nonsense about religion to make it look bad. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049.md?page=9)