# Noone is born atheist **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 20, 2008, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049 "2008-12-20T07:03:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/161 "2008-12-21T20:51:10Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Yes, Atheism is a form of the spirit of the Antichrist, a demonically inspired belief that there is nothing but this physical world, or at least no God (and therefore no Christ aka Antichrist). It is designed to blind a person to the spiritual and not even have them look for God or spiritual ‘reality’. It is a false doctrine, a belief system taught by deceiving spirits. It’s a further lie of the enemy that atheism is not a belief system. It hinders the person from accessing the distant memories of the Love of God and knowledge of God, and acts to discredit anything that may lead the person to God. Perhaps atheists are interested in the truth unfettered by myth and dogma that merely spouts phrases about God while unable to actually live the principles talked about. Perhaps they are claiming their right to find their own path rather than follow one created by other men who foolishly claim their path is the one true path to God. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/162 "2008-12-21T20:52:19Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > I think you may be on to something. The best way for the Antichrist to acheive this would be to have his followers spout nonsense about religion to make it look bad. Shhhhhhh don’t give the AC any ideas or that may actually start happening. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/163 "2008-12-21T20:54:49Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Incidentally, DrCube, how would one describe a person who believes every human religion is a self-delusional waste of time, but is indifferent to the possible existence of a god or gods? I know I know. Leave out the first six words of this sentence and change the question mark to a period or even an exclamation point. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/164 "2008-12-21T21:00:16Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Incidentally, DrCube, how would one describe a person who believes every human religion is a self-delusional waste of time, but is indifferent to the possible existence of a god or gods? It depends. If this person doesn’t care whether or not God exists, but believes he does and is just apathetic about that fact, they are a theist. If they don’t care whether God exists, and simply assume he doesn’t – the same way they assume unicorns and Cthulu don’t exist until convinced otherwise – they are an atheist. If they are indifferent but think God might exist, while giving equal weight to the notion that God doesn’t exist, and not very sure either way; then that person is an agnostic. In short, atheism has nothing to do with how you feel about religion, and all to do with whether or not you believe in a deity. It’s quite simple actually: Theist – believes in God(s). Atheist – doesn’t believe in God(s). Agnostic – unsure or somewhere else in between believing and not believing. ‘Atheist’ doesn’t mean ‘loud, obnoxious God-hater’ any more than ‘theist’ means ‘fundamentalist religious wacko’. **kanicbird** , I wish I could call you crazy, but you’re more representative of the prevailing beliefs of present Americans than the rest of the SDMB. Go handle some snakes, roll on the floor speaking tongues, listen to DC Talk, whatever; but stop accusing me of being the ‘enemy’, ‘deceived’, ‘the Antichrist’, ‘demonically-inspired’ and an instrument of the Devil. I can’t be the only one getting pissed off by that. ---
**Author:** ![100\_Moron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/fbc32d/32.png) [@100\_Moron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/100_Moron)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/165 "2008-12-21T21:31:01Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > I would say your second (quoted) sentence refutes your first. I see now that this is actually yet another ‘how do you define “atheist”?’ thread. > > You see, to myself, and most of the actual atheists who’ve commented in this thread, not believing in any gods _is all it takes to be an atheist_. It is not an active assertion. It is not a rejection of gods. It is not even a rational decision made after studying the available evidence. It is simply a lack of belief. Dogs, lizards, amoebas, tables and chairs? All atheists, because none believe in a god. Therefore I conclude that newborns are atheists as well, until they grow up a little and are convinced of a god by someone else. > > The phrase “no one is born an atheist” isn’t meant to elevate atheism to some sort of default, ‘natural’ state; but to counteract statements like **kanicbird** ’s, that we’re all somehow Christians deep in our soul, denying and fooling ourselves (I suppose with Satan’s help?). In fact, the point of the phrase is the exact opposite to what **Shalmanese** seems to think. It is not a claim for atheism as the natural state of affairs, bastardized by religious indoctrination, but to refute those exact same claims as made by Christians. I.e., that every baby naturally loves Jesus, and all us infidels shape them into atheist thugs with the help of Satan. Ah, but there is no Satan, either. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/166 "2008-12-21T21:58:21Z")
> [@100\_Moron](#): > > Ah, but there is no Satan, either. Oh yeah!!! Then who’s [this](http://www.adpulp.com/satan.jpg). and[this](http://earthhopenetwork.net/bush%20art/Satan_George_pitch_fork.jpg) and [this being](http://www.mccullagh.org/db9/d30-14/jesus-and-satan.jpg) next to Jesus hmmmmmmmmmm ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/167 "2008-12-21T22:02:30Z")
By the way, is Satan a Christian invention? I don’t know of a Jewish analogue, and I can understand why, having created an entire PR campaign around good-guy Jesus, the dramatic demands of the New Testament required bad-guy Satan, else people might start to wonder why Jesus hasn’t solved the world’s problems yet. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/168 "2008-12-21T22:04:54Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > and [this being](http://www.mccullagh.org/db9/d30-14/jesus-and-satan.jpg) next to Jesus John Travolta?!? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/169 "2008-12-21T23:18:34Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Perhaps not at this time, but God works unseen to bring His children home. It is not always in the timing you expect. If your attempt to seek God had been honest seeking of your heart, asking God to reveal Himself to you, I believe you will find Him. That’s pretty special that you believe that. However, I’m not asking GOd to reveal Himself, unqualified: rather, I’m hoping to find out the truth about this whole bundle of wax. If there’s a man behind the curtain, yeah, I’d like him to show himself, at which point I’m going to be pretty pissed off at him (you mean ebola is an engineered virus? AIDS was deliberately created? You could have sopped the Holocaust and you didn’t? You knew how to stop SIDS for years, and you didn’t tell us? What the hell’s wrong with you?) I assume GOd’s not scared of my asking him these questions; I assume there must be another reason for my quest for truth not revealing a God. The likeliest answer seems to me to be that God doesn’t exist. A less-likely answer is that God is not benevolent. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/170 "2008-12-22T00:13:37Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **kanicbird** > Perhaps not at this time, but God works unseen to bring His children home. It is not always in the timing you expect. If your attempt to seek God had been honest seeking of your heart, asking God to reveal Himself to you, I believe you will find Him. As long as it meets all your predetermined doctrinal conditions. From our discussion in another thread it doesn’t appear to me you actually believe this. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/171 "2008-12-22T00:59:23Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Yes, Atheism is a form of the spirit of the Antichrist, a demonically inspired belief that there is nothing but this physical world, or at least no God (and therefore no Christ aka Antichrist). It is designed to blind a person to the spiritual and not even have them look for God or spiritual ‘reality’. It is a false doctrine, a belief system taught by deceiving spirits. It’s a further lie of the enemy that atheism is not a belief system. It hinders the person from accessing the distant memories of the Love of God and knowledge of God, and acts to discredit anything that may lead the person to God. The Bible notes that anti-Christs will claim divine authority, as I recall, which means that atheists are in the clear. We Christians have to be cautious of those who falsely claim to be speaking for God, not those who do not believe in God. ---
**Author:** ![100\_Moron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/fbc32d/32.png) [@100\_Moron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/100_Moron)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/172 "2008-12-22T02:20:18Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Oh yeah!!! Then who’s [this](http://www.adpulp.com/satan.jpg). > and[this](http://earthhopenetwork.net/bush%20art/Satan_George_pitch_fork.jpg) > > and [this being](http://www.mccullagh.org/db9/d30-14/jesus-and-satan.jpg) next to Jesus > hmmmmmmmmmm You win. I concede. 😃 The Bush one was freaky. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/173 "2008-12-22T02:23:40Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I can understand your point, though I see the Bible as, among other things, showing us the pattern of our lives from conception, time in the womb, birth, instruction/rebellion, Jesus being born in one’s heart, walking in the Spirit. > > The major difference between Adam & Eve and us was they were free of original sin (and therefore free from birthing pains among other things). They were not conceived in captivity. We are subject to sins of our fathers, if our fathers sin, they sell themselves into captivity. This is why I believe that Jesus had to be conceived directly by the Holy Spirit, this way He was not subject to captivity based on sins of His Father, as His Father is God, not man. No where does the Word state that the sins of the mother are passed on, so while some believe Mary to be sinless, even if that were true, it doesn’t matter as she could jot pass on her sins to her Son. Huh. And here I thought the Bible was completely anti-woman. > [@](#): > > It was not a apple, but the ‘fruit’ of the knowledge of good and evil. Fruit often refers to the resulting work or effects. Such as the fruit of the Holy Spirit is love, joy, etc. The fruit (or works) of ‘man’s’ knowledge of good and evil leads to bad things, hurt, pain, etc. By stepping outside the will of God for our lives and depending on ourselves (or Satan) we reap this ‘fruit’ which is our hardship in this life. Here is a perfect example of why I don’t believe anything about the Bible, other than it was a book written by men a very long time ago. The Bible I was taught from was interpreted to mean that Eve gave Adam an apple because a serpent told her to (obviously paraphrased). Your interpretation is our free will is why we are in pain and if we would just become slaves to God, we would always be happy. Not that the God slaves I happen to know appear to be always happy, but then it must be hard trying to figure out what the big guy wants you to be doing at all times. > [@](#): > > Yes, the womb is also a place underground (Ps 139:15). Hell is a place underground. If a womb is hell, is it any wonder I never wanted children? > [@](#): > > Yes you can light a lamp, but that can fail. When the sun come up we don’t need the lamp. BTW God is willing to be responsible for your comfort, and He can do a far better job of that then you can. A lamp can fail, but so can sunlight if there is to be a storm and the sky is covered with black clouds. My mother was willing to br responsible for my comfort for all time, but that is not an adult thing to do. Neither is expecting some spirit in the sky to do so, particularly when your Bible wants me to live a life I would hate. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/174 "2008-12-22T02:48:46Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > As I believe i’ve said before, there seem to be examples to the otherwise. This is exactly why I took great pains to emphasize that _some_ dictionaries (but by no means the majority) define “disbelief” as a mere lack of belief. The vast majority that I’ve consulted do not though. They define disbelief (and thus, atheism) as an active rejection of belief rather than a mere absence of belief. Besides which, the point remains… When people declare “Atheism is just a lack of belief, stupid!” they’re vastly overstating the case. Virtually every authoritative resource that I’ve seen defines it much more narrowly. They define it as an active rejection of theism, even if we acknowledge that _some_ of these references could be interpreted to denote a mere lack of belief. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/175 "2008-12-22T02:57:37Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Yes, Atheism is a form of the spirit of the Antichrist, a demonically inspired belief that there is nothing but this physical world, or at least no God (and therefore no Christ aka Antichrist). And Christianity was started by Nyarlothotep in the form of a human to increase strife and hatred on the planet. See? I can spout made up hateful and decisive things too. > [@](#): > > It is designed to blind a person to the spiritual and not even have them look for God or spiritual ‘reality’. It is a false doctrine, a belief system taught by deceiving spirits. Oh yeah? Prove that any of the ‘spirits’ you’ve talked to aren’t deceiving you. It’s funny how the spirits always seem to teach things that the person already agrees with. > [@](#): > > It’s a further lie of the enemy that atheism is not a belief system. It hinders the person from accessing the distant memories of the Love of God and knowledge of God, and acts to discredit anything that may lead the person to God. Cite. Plain and simple, give us some proof that you aren’t taking some serious psychedelics. Cuz, really, that’s all I’m getting from this. This is why we have to argue against religious nonsense. This is why atheists have to stand up and say something. People like **kanicbird** spout this insane gibberish, and then expect not only to be not called on it, but that people believe him. Well I’m calling him on it. **kanicbird** , you’re either being malicious in spreading hatred and deceit or you are being ignorant, and spreading the hatred and deceit others have filled you with. Either way, what you are doing is bad, and should be opposed. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/176 "2008-12-22T03:16:23Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > It is also possible that the stone tools were “discovered” incidentally to sculpturing an object of spiritual or mystical importance. Stone to stone will shape a rock… that creature was probably making something of ritual or animist representation or importance. The “science” was incidentally discovering that the chipped shards could cut. It was finding the edge by accident. Ya see, that is crystalline evolution. The shear of a rock (Crystals) implemented every technology we have yet discovered. We probably cut ourselves on that shard, and it caused harm… so it became tabu for a while, until we discovered that we could cut… other. Still cutting ourselves today. Nothing has changed. We are young evolutionaries. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/177 "2008-12-22T04:53:22Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > **kanicbird** , you’re either being malicious in spreading hatred and deceit or you are being ignorant, and spreading the hatred and deceit others have filled you with. Either way, what you are doing is bad, and should be opposed. I agree, but it turns out all you can really do and still keep a free society is blunt any effort made by people like him to get their superstitions written into law; eternal vigilance and all that. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/178 "2008-12-22T05:27:34Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Yes, Atheism is a form of the spirit of the Antichrist, a demonically inspired belief that there is nothing but this physical world, or at least no God (and therefore no Christ aka Antichrist). It is designed to blind a person to the spiritual and not even have them look for God or spiritual ‘reality’. It is a false doctrine, a belief system taught by deceiving spirits. It’s a further lie of the enemy that atheism is not a belief system. It hinders the person from accessing the distant memories of the Love of God and knowledge of God, and acts to discredit anything that may lead the person to God. You know what a truly evil religion would be? One whose founder told his followers that they must [hate their families](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=14&verse=26&version=31&context=verse) and even [maim themselves](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%209:43-48;&version=31;), who openly boasted of [bringing strife and even warfare](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2010:34-36;&version=31;), and who gloated that his enemies would be subjected to [horrible](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2016:19-31;&version=31;) [tortures](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2013:40-42;&version=31;). ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/179 "2008-12-22T14:03:35Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I agree, but it turns out all you can really do and still keep a free society is blunt any effort made by people like him to get their superstitions written into law; eternal vigilance and all that. _Eternal_ vigilance? Hah! I knew it. You’re a believer. I knew anybody that made that many off the wall jokes worshiped [this guy](http://jatinpatel.net/img-post/god.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049/180 "2008-12-22T17:04:47Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I knew anybody that made that many off the wall jokes worshiped [this guy](http://jatinpatel.net/img-post/god.jpg). I’m trying to find an online version of one of my favourites, in which God, having finished the Earth and while thinking “And just to make it interesting…” sprinkles in some Jerks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noone-is-born-atheist/478049.md?page=10)