I think the OP is actually correct, sort of. We are born with the potential for religious belief, and it seems to be a very strong potential. I suspect that if children who had been raised without religious belief (ie, never any discussion about religion at all) were separated from their parents at, say 10 years of age, and formed their own society, they would create religion. I’m not aware of any human culture that is devoid of religion. However, at the moment of birth, we don’t have any views at all-- either scientific or religious.
People are not conceived “knowing” anything. God did not “knit” anything together. Two people had sex and a spermatazoan fertilized an ovum. It’s not necessary to apply magical thinking to conception when we now have evidence of exactly what happens when a human being is conceived.
If I understand correctly, we are pre-disposed to spirituality. This is not the same thing as being “born religious.” It certainly explains why children are so willing to believe things they can’t see and why the lashback against atheism and agnosticism is an almost completely emotional response.
I agree with the OP. Atheism is not a concept arrived at without serious thought and study. I don’t think we are born at a spiritually null position.
That’s a form of “My post is my cite.” A version of “God says it, I believe it, that settles it.” Since we have absolute zero objective evidence for the existence of god, scripture is worth exactly jack. You assert that everyone is born with some sort of knowledge that they then lose. Give me a cite that shows that infants are born with any cultural knowledge and we can talk.
I said they are conceived knowing God, by birth most have lost that knowledge.
Oh please, that’s lame even by your standards. To debate something you have to be able objectively quantify at least one aspect of it. Here, look how easy this is:
I assert that everyone is conceived knowing Odin, and once they are born they lose all knowledge of him and are deceived by the christian agenda. :rolleyes:
…So if this isn’t what religion is, what is it? That phrase pretty much describes my own experience with religion.
Since people are born with zero beliefs one way or the other and choose whether to have theistic beliefs or not for various reasons, I guess “everyone is born an atheist” is technically correct but rather meaningless in the context the OP refers to. Can’t people be indoctrinated into “there is no God” as easily as “God is”.
Above I stated that I believe that children are conceived knowing God, but that fades at birth. I don’t know the term born atheists really fits though and may be better though of as spiritualists.
Children know the spiritual world much more then adults. They frequently know about spirits, ghosts, invisible friends, monsters, etc. They can’t really vocalize them well, and people who have authority over them frequently try to brainwash that away from them. They lose the ability to perceive this world and become grounded into our illusion of a physical world.
Oh Please yourself, by deleting, of all things, the scriptural cites you have revealed your hand. In the name of Jesus stop peddling your deceptions here.
What deceptions? I can quote the Prose Edda where it states that Odin made men, not the christian god. My story is older than yours is, so since I have no more evidence for my position than you do, I win by virtue of seniority.
So I’m asking you again, do you have any other evidence to back your assertion, or are you just making things up?
Where does that knowledge exist, prior to the existence of a brain in which neural paths may be formed? Is it part of the soul? Does knowledge at some point transfer from the immaterial soul to the material brain, or do you deny the idea that knowledge in animals is stored within the brain? If you deny this idea, how do you believe that the immaterial storage center interacts with the material world–that is, when I type, “Our next president will be Barack Obama,” how did my knowledge transfer from the immaterial world to the material act of my fingertips moving across the keyboard?
You can make any old sort of claim you want, but the idea that eggs know God from the moment the sperm penetrates their wall is rather fanciful.
Daniel
As to the OP, this is a very interesting article that touches on the subject. I’m something of a Stephen Pinker fanboy–reading his work is generally the hardest intellectual work I do these days. Very interesting stuff.
Daniel
The OP is ridiculous. It’s like one of these OPs that say “this is my opinion, therefore it is fact.” I’m sure there are people born with a tendency toward religion just like there are people born without, but no one is born believing in any established earthly religion. Like Diogenes said up thread, no one is born a theist and thus we are all quite literally born atheists.
This is my understanding: Our neural paths develop and allow us to interact with our physical world, as they are physical, and it’s what we need to understand it. We don’t live inside our heads, but use our heads to access our world. We will never develop a artificial brain truly capable of independent thought IMHO because that requires a soul. It would just be a computer if it worked at all.
Again the neural paths can be accessed by the soul, including, I suppose, memory storage inside the brain.
While I don’t agree with some of the other points you’ve made, I think it’s only on this one that you might be convinced otherwise. Simply because they claim to see and think more about these does not necessarily mean they’re more attuned to it, or have a greater ability to do so. I think it’s sort of like your belief that the gods other than the Christian God who are worshipped are real, because of your belief that there are spirits and lesser god-type beings who masquerade as gods. Just because it is a possibility, does not mean it is so. For example, imagine a child who sees a large black dog out of their window at night. They might become convinced that it is actually a monster of some kind; that they from then on believe in monsters doesn’t mean that it is based on a true understanding or ability to see monsters for what they really are. To put it another way, that very well might be simply another illusion, though different from the one most of us have.
How is it you’re able to determine the difference between those children who honestly do see and know of spirits, ghosts etc. and those who have come by that conception through false means? And how do you know that children, in general, are so certainly one over the other?
kanicbird, you haven’t addressed the question of where that knowledge exists, prior to there being a brain for that knowledge to exist in. Where does this supposed a priori knowledge of God exist before the embryo develops into a fetus with a brain?
When I said it, I simply meant “Nobody is born believing in God” I think the OP is taking the statement far too seriously. I’ll elaborate later on.
To believe that we are born with no beliefs is a misunderstanding of both physiology and development. Humans are born hard coded with many beliefs and intuitions. That we can later override such beliefs through education and learning is something which makes humans special but this does not mean that we are born as blank slates.
Cites. Please.
Strawman? It’s a big leap from “born blank slates” to “born believing there is a supreme being watching over us.”
When we do develop an artificial brain as technically and independently capable as a human being would you not concede that a more logical approach is to realise that we’re biological equivalents of such a system? This understanding could exist without the spurious assertion that we posses a non-spatio-temporal ‘soul’ which somehow manages to interact with our neural pathways by some mechanism unknown to the world of science or rationality.
Inserting my own anecdotal evidence in response to the original post, as far back in my childhood as I can seem to remember I always regarded religion, god, miracles etc. as an intellectually indefensible point of view, even without a great deal of philosophical analysis. Religion may persist for a variety of sociological and psychological predispositions in certain individuals, but an innate sense of god from birth isn’t something I experienced.