Noone is born atheist

[hotflungwok]

@Jesse_Leigh

This is nonsensical. What words, pray tell, do your sources (?) tell you are in the earliest manuscripts from which I took the ones I posted here?

Who cares? It doesn’t matter what the words say, a significant number of Christians do not believe the word ‘hell’ just means final grave or whatever. Oh, and every definition I’ve read, including ones you can easily find on google, clearly state that Hell, Sheol, and Hades all contain the suffering of the sinful. Clearly something Christians should fear, and very obviously not something an all loving god would condemn a person to.

[QUOTE]
My beliefs have nothing to do with the Crusades, which had nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus Christ who commanded us not to murder. My information comes from material I read decades ago and I don’t have time to look through all my books to satistfy your curiosity. So, you can disregard my comment as unsubstantialted if you wish. I’ll take care, henceforth, not to provide you with information that isn’t readily available on the Internet - however poor a source it is on ancient stats.[?QUOTE]
The information is not readily available on the internet, because, I suspect, it not true. 65 million is a very large number to burn at the stake, and I’m quite certain history would have something to say about it. As you refuse to give a cite, any cite, for this, I have to assume you are either ignorantly passing on bad information, or maliciously lying. And Jesus didn’t command us not to kill, he said to love your neighbor and your god. And of course, as countless Christians have demonstrated, if you really love your neighbor and you fear for their soul, killing them can save them.

My sources say that 95% of the population of the world believes in a ‘Higher Power.’ Atheism is considered aberrant because of its fruit. Consider,

Ah, the usual ‘atheists murder people, so they’re bad’ argument. Ask yourself why Stalin killed people. Then ask yourself why Crusaders killed people. Let’s see if you can come up with the right answers. And please don’t trot out the tired old ‘no true Scotsman’ fallacy. Those people believed they were doing god’s work, and that they were devout Christians, same as you.

No, our orphan ministry is global in scope and a large portion of the proceeds from my books, CD’s, and photographic material go toward funding this part of our ministry.

So you do have a ministry that targets the poor, hungry & ignorant.

The food they need is not ‘The food that perishes.’

Actually, everyone needs that. You as well.

I did address it. I disagree. As I’ve (once again) repeatedly explained, Christians don’t ‘Convert’ people, only God had that power. Christian missionaries merely minister to (care for) these people, sowing seeds of love, which may take root in some but not in others. This applies to rich and poor alike.

This is a painfully obvious word game. ‘Planting the seed’, as you put, looks so much like trying to convert people, what with the telling them all about god, and the things they get if they worship the right god, and the hell they go to if they don’t, etc. You’re just playing with semantics.

Spoken as only someone with no practical experience whatsoever could speak.

I was a Catholic for much of my life, and have done my share of this. You can apologize now.

The Gospel isn’t preached prior to feeding hungry people. Christ Himself fed the people first and we follow His example. ‘Agreement’ with Christianity is never necessary for a Christian to feed, clothe, or comfort anybody - anywhere.

Actually, missionaries in Africa and other places have been found that won’t give to non-Christians.

If people (rich or poor) are drawn to Christ through His followers, it is because of the LOVE that is shown to them by them, and that’s it, and that’s all.

Of course, they just show up and help people, they don’t talk about Christianity at all, I’m people just magically realize that they’re not observing the proper religion.

I’ll have to check out this forum you run. If your example here is indicative of it, it should be interesting at the least.

[Rubystreak]

@Jesse_Leigh

I’ll do my best, but as for ‘sticking around here,’ I doubt it. I have my own forum to run, 5,200 pages of manuscript to tidy up before my publisher’s deadline, a family I must tend to, and a ministry to fulfil…

…my country’s 500th anniversary to plan, my wedding to arrange, my wife to murder, and Guilder to frame for it; I’m swamped.

Sorry, that was not on topic, but I felt I had to post it anyway.

I really want to see Jesse Leigh and Diogenes to reconcile this dispute about the word in the passage in Luke meaning “fear” or “revere.” I wish I was still in touch with my Old Testament Lit professor. He read ancient Greek, Latin, and Aramaic, did archeological work in the Dead Sea… and was a stone atheist.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Jesse_Leigh

I thought we were discussing original Greek and Hebrew, albeit two words only , and one of which has been all but discarded by the forum members (Sheol). I too have had formal training in these languages and have lived in the Middle East. I don’t require to ‘fake it’ as you so charitably put it. - Jesse.

They don’t speak Koine Greek in the Middle East, so that’s not much of a credential. If you’ve had formal training, it’s not evident in your posts about Greek. Either you were taught wrong or you’re making it up.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Rubystreak

…my country’s 500th anniversary to plan, my wedding to arrange, my wife to murder, and Guilder to frame for it; I’m swamped.

Sorry, that was not on topic, but I felt I had to post it anyway.

I really want to see Jesse Leigh and Diogenes to reconcile this dispute about the word in the passage in Luke meaning “fear” or “revere.” I wish I was still in touch with my Old Testament Lit professor. He read ancient Greek, Latin, and Aramaic, did archeological work in the Dead Sea… and was a stone atheist.

I’m right, Jesse’s wrong, as any Greek lexicon will confirm.

[Brown_Eyed_Girl]

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

I’m right, Jesse’s wrong, as any Greek lexicon will confirm.

And with that, she’s done here. I’ll put money on that.
Unless…

[Kalhoun]

@Brown_Eyed_Girl

And with that, she’s done here. I’ll put money on that.
Unless…

C’mon…the expert on all things christian and goddy? Surely she can’t be done yet!

[MrDibble]

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

In your favor, I’ll grant you that L&S gives a use about 7 or 8 definitions deep to refer to being in awe of a god, but it’s primary meaning is basically “panic.”

…which comes from the fear inspired by a god (Pan). Isn’t that just a cool little sidetrack? Everything goes in circles.

[Pazu]

@Kalhoun

C’mon…the expert on all things christian and goddy? Surely she can’t be done yet!

Heck, I was kinda hoping she’d show us some expertise on Hesiod…

[Bryan_Ekers]

@Pazu

Heck, I was kinda hoping she’d show us some expertise on Hesiod…

Heck, that’s always just hesiod, shesiod.

[cosmosdan]

@Jesse_Leigh

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse Leigh
You’ll never get a rebellious (demonic) spirit to confess Jesus Christ. Confront them with that and they quickly flee.

Love - Jesse.

Aren’t there phony preachers who confess Jesus frequently in order to line their own pockets?

**Morning Cosmodan! (Is it morning where you are?)

My understanding of this passage is that their motivation/heart condition was not ‘right’ with Jesus. Again, we come back to the truism that if what we do is not done with LOVE in our heart; the act may still be a good one, but we who do it for recognition, the love or power, or any other ‘self’ orientated reason, are not going to be ‘right’ with God and/or Christ. (1 Corinthains 13.)

The point being that even though they did recognize Jesus as Lord he said depart from me, and called them evildoers. That means that trying their spirit in the way according to the passages you quoted wouldn’t work. Certainly their evildoer spirits didn’t come from God.

The ‘Will of my Father who is in heaven’ is what? ‘You must love YHWH you God with your whole heart, your whole soul, your whole mind, and your whole strength… and you must love your neighbor as yourself. On this hangs the entire Law and (the teachings of) the prophets.’

Again, LOVE, Cosmodan. Nothing else we do matters if we fail to first LOVE. **

I can agree with that. The problem I have is Christianity often qualifies it and refuses to recognize love that isn’t verbally associated with Jesus. IMO If God is a spirit and judges our true intent of heart and mind, then that’s what matters from any individual rather than labels and doctrines.

Quote:
Mat 25: 41"Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44"They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

In these passages it seems that those who acknowledged Jesus as Lord still weren’t right with him.

**Cosmodan, the part after that is key to the understanding of this passage. ‘To the extent that you did not do it to the least of these, My brethren, you did not do it to Me.’ (Matthew 25:45)

Again, Jesus makes no distinction between Himself and those who make up ‘The Body of Christ’ - His followers. This is why He said to the Apostle Paul, "Why are you persecuting Me,’ and not ‘Why are you presecuting my followers’?

I’ve heard this explanation before and I don’t buy it. Even though he may be addressing followers I don’t think the point is only for them. The fact that the people who received a reward asked when they saw Christ indicates they may not have been followers {since they would not need to ask} More importantly I think the point is as you said, deeds born of a loving heart matter more than adoration of a name or religious icon. For anyone!

---

All things (as in all things in the Bible) considered, and what I know and believe (AKA my opinion, belief, and understanding of) I believe that, as stated in the Bible, ‘GOD IS THE REWARDER OF ALL THOSE EARNESTLY SEEKING HIM.’

And IMHO this to is a condition of the spirit, heart and mind rather than which name you call God by. A person who calls God, Allah, Great Spirit, Krishna, Buddha, Mother Nature, or nothing at all can still have as sincere a heart as any Christian. It seems to conflict with the concepts of God’s Love and mercy that Christians who live a reasonably moral life claim the ultimate reward of heavenly bliss, while a Buddhist who serves others for a lifetime is damed simply because one repeated the name of Jesus.

This does not negate Jesus’ statement, ‘I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by Me,’ as those predisposed (having the right heart condition and will) to recognizing the truth ‘My sheep will know My voice,’ and ‘Everyone who can hear the Truth listens to Me,’ will immediately know Jesus’ voice when they hear it.

Yes, and I think that’s the inner voice rather than the Bible or a Christian eager to witness. The nature of the seeker is also about the inner spirit.

While it is true (again, Biblically speaking) that God first calls people to Christ, and through Christ they are reconciled to God The Father, nowhere in Scripture does it say that this reconcilation must take place prior to death.

That’s an interesting take on it.

So, the conclusion I have reached is that GOD does listen to the prayers of ALL people ‘WHO ARE EARNESTLY SEEKING HIM’ regardless of the religious label they wear while on this Earth.

Agreed. That’s why I try to celebrate the inner spirit of the people I meet . A good kind, loving, compassionate person contributes to humanity and our journey here. Their journey may take them through a different religion or through no religion. It doesn’t matter.

Thank you for making me think more deeply about this particular subject. My tendency has always been not to judge people, but rather to look upon all as children of GOD, as I have always believed that GOD loves us all and that ‘Christ died once for ALL people.’ I had not previously stopped to wonder whether GOD listens to the prayers of those of other faiths. I know that (the Bible says that) GOD does not listen to the prayers of the ‘Unrighteous.’ But GOD is severest with His Own Church, and I applied that to ‘Unrightous’ Christians and others who knew but denied Christ, when my thoughts wandered in that direction.

That’s why I enjoy these threads. I found here on the SDMB that I learned a lot more about what I actually believe and did more research because I was defending my beliefs or explaining my beliefs to those who asked good questions. Thanks for taking the time to participate.

oh, minor thing, It’s Cosmosdan, with that second S.

Shalom Aleichem - Jesse.**

Rock on

[Zygomide]

I didn’t read the entirety of this thread, seeing the large quantity of posts, but I still feel like putting forth my input.

I was born into family where religion wasn’t an issue. Not supported, not opposed. Just not really mentioned. I’ve been atheist as long as I can remember. I’m fervently against religion, or the concepts it represents. I have nothing against those who are religious, though. I don’t blame them for their beliefs.

So, to simplify, I was born atheist. Though it really depends on how you define atheist. I view it as not believing in a god, while I imagine others define it as believing in the absence of a god. You can’t say something doesn’t exist if you’ve never heard it mentioned. Before you first heard of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, you didn’t not believe it. However, unlike how the double negative implies, you didn’t believe in it either. You just didn’t think about it.

You know, I bet someone has already gone over these nuances, but I really don’t feel like reading all 11 pages and I also felt like putting in my input. Or is it my output? Nevermind, no need to hijack.

[Pazu]

@Bryan_Ekers

Heck, that’s always just hesiod, shesiod.

…to Koine a phrase.

[cosmosdan]

@Bryan_Ekers

Heck, that’s always just hesiod, shesiod.

chortle!

[Pazu]

…and I guess she’s gone. Surprise surprise.

[Jesse_Leigh]

Good grief!

I don’t have time to visit here for 46 hours and for that I deserve all this? Don’t you people have lives?

I can’t believe I paid money to be here, to converse and discuss with people who, at first blush, appeared to be sincere about seeking truth. I don’t believe I’ve ever run into a more cynical, ignorant, and downright hateful group of people - Cosmosdan notwithstanding.

I came back to pick up our discussion from where I had to leave it, but I’m not a masochist or a martyr, and I object to this kind of verbal abuse. Whatever the expression of one’s faith, the basic human traits of kindness and respect for others should apply to us all. Shame on you!

NOW I’m leaving. If you’d like to know why, grab a mirror!

[Fear_Itself]

@Jesse_Leigh

I came back to pick up our discussion from where I had to leave it, but I’m not a masochist or a martyr, and I object to this kind of verbal abuse.

I thought that is why you came in the first place:

Luke 21:12-18

But before all this, they will lay hands on you and persecute you. They will deliver you to synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name. This will result in your being witnesses to them. But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. All men will hate you because of me. But not a hair of your head will perish.

[cosmosdan]

@Jesse_Leigh

Good grief!

I don’t have time to visit here for 46 hours and for that I deserve all this? Don’t you people have lives?

I can’t believe I paid money to be here, to converse and discuss with people who, at first blush, appeared to be sincere about seeking truth. I don’t believe I’ve ever run into a more cynical, ignorant, and downright hateful group of people - Cosmosdan notwithstanding.

I came back to pick up our discussion from where I had to leave it, but I’m not a masochist or a martyr, and I object to this kind of verbal abuse. Whatever the expression of one’s faith, the basic human traits of kindness and respect for others should apply to us all. Shame on you!

NOW I’m leaving. If you’d like to know why, grab a mirror!

This can definitely be a tough room for believers for two reasons. Some posters aren’t shy about showing their disdain for religion and religious belief. This thread is somewhat mild compared to what I’ve seen in the past. The second reason is that we have some very knowledgeable members who make it quite challenging and tend not to let things slide. That’s actually one of the things I like about it.
You have to be a little thicker skinned to talk to people who strongly disagree with you on certain issues. I’ve learned to ignore certain posters who don’t contribute much in the way of knowledge or thoughtful questions but have plenty of sarcastic opinions. You can ignore posters who are nasty but ignoring factual challenges isn’t wise.

I’m sorry you’re offended but sincerely Jesse, if this is the most cynical, ignorant, and downright hateful group of people you’ve ever seen, you lead a somewhat sheltered life. Seeking the truth has to be worth a few bumps and bruises.

[hotflungwok]

So, um, if I had searched for and possibly found another forum mentioned by a poster here, would it be against the rules to post it? And maybe possibly a right-on-the-web-for-all-to-see information page about that might possibly be about said poster? Would it?

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Jesse_Leigh

Good grief!

I don’t have time to visit here for 46 hours and for that I deserve all this? Don’t you people have lives?

I can’t believe I paid money to be here, to converse and discuss with people who, at first blush, appeared to be sincere about seeking truth. I don’t believe I’ve ever run into a more cynical, ignorant, and downright hateful group of people - Cosmosdan notwithstanding.

I came back to pick up our discussion from where I had to leave it, but I’m not a masochist or a martyr, and I object to this kind of verbal abuse. Whatever the expression of one’s faith, the basic human traits of kindness and respect for others should apply to us all. Shame on you!

NOW I’m leaving. If you’d like to know why, grab a mirror!

So anyone who isn’t immediately persuaded to fall right over and convert after being subjected to your rambling witnessing is “cynical,” and “hateful,” and “not really seeking the truth.” Asking you to support your assertions is “verbally abusing” you.

Uh huh.

What did you expect is a debate forum? Did you really think you wouldn’t have to debate? What would Jesus think about you giving up so easily?

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@hotflungwok

So, um, if I had searched for and possibly found another forum mentioned by a poster here, would it be against the rules to post it? And maybe possibly a right-on-the-web-for-all-to-see information page about that might possibly be about said poster? Would it?

Well, you’ve got me curious. If you don’t post it here, could yu send me a PM?