# Normal is the new abnormal -- forbidden adjectives **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 9, 2021, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normal-is-the-new-abnormal-forbidden-adjectives/937554 "2021-03-09T22:19:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normal-is-the-new-abnormal-forbidden-adjectives/937554/181 "2021-03-13T20:19:22Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > And I’ve certainly seen others use it. Absolutely; for example, it’s part of a graceful compliment paid by King Elessar in Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings to Eomer and Eowyn of Rohan on the occasion of Eowyn’s betrothal to Faramir. But they left that wording out of the movie version, and wisely, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2021, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normal-is-the-new-abnormal-forbidden-adjectives/937554/182 "2021-03-14T00:09:22Z")
Tolkien was writing at a time when the actual n-word was in casual use in the UK. I’ve got a couple of old versions of mystery books, they’ll really take you aback sometimes. And, possibly more to the point, I don’t think a use by an English professor in the UK in the 1940’s is an indication that the word “niggardly” has recently been in common use in the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2021, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normal-is-the-new-abnormal-forbidden-adjectives/937554/183 "2021-03-14T01:29:20Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > And, possibly more to the point, I don’t think a use by an English professor in the UK in the 1940’s is an indication that the word “niggardly” has recently been in common use in the United States. No, I don’t think puzzlegal was trying to suggest anything about recent common American use: as she noted in her post that I replied to, it’s most familiar from “older literature”. The Lord of the Rings is even more of a special case, of course, because Tolkien was trying to retroactively implement an ancient “English-peoples” legendarium analogous to the literary heritage of the Norse sagas. So LoTR is absolutely stuffed full of somewhat archaic Germanic words of Old English and Norse derivation. “Niggard”, “meads”, “ghyll”, “ell”, it’s all part of Tolkien’s deliberately Middle-Englishy tone. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2021, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normal-is-the-new-abnormal-forbidden-adjectives/937554/184 "2021-03-14T02:18:06Z")
Yes. It’s a word that used to be in my “use when writing” vocabulary, because I read a lot of older literature when I was young, so I had a large and somewhat old-fashioned vocabulary. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2021, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normal-is-the-new-abnormal-forbidden-adjectives/937554/185 "2021-03-14T04:08:32Z")
A bit less off tangent from the op … you may be able to guess from my avatar that I don’t care much about shampoo. Actually I use Bonners for all my body cleansing needs scalp inclusive and the two pack from Costco (peppermint) may last me forever. But how much actual difference is there between Brand X’s product for dry or for oily or neither hair?? Hair or there should one care? ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2021, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normal-is-the-new-abnormal-forbidden-adjectives/937554/186 "2021-03-14T04:16:40Z")
I’m not sure how much difference there is in any one brand’s variations. But I have found, over the years, that some shampoo doesn’t get my hair feeling clean; shampoos claiming to be designed for daily use in particular generally don’t, I think they make themselves usable that way by not doing very much at any particular use. It may well depend on the particular hair, though. And some shampoos leave my hair less tangly than others; with some I need to use a conditioner or I can’t get a comb through it, with others the shampoo alone will do fine. Plus I think most of them smell bad. I’d get unscented if I could, but unscented shampoo is really rare, and most of it seems to fall into the ‘doesn’t get my hair clean’ category. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2021, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normal-is-the-new-abnormal-forbidden-adjectives/937554/187 "2021-03-14T10:08:29Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Oh, I have plenty of empathy, being one of the people having trouble keeping up with change. But this is an extremely small change, and marketing folks change the labels all the time. And this one even has some obvious upside. Small, but it offsets the small downside, and then some, imo. Thank you. Yeah, I know this change isn’t a big deal, but there’s a whole background of people and companies insisting on changes, often without consulting those they are supposedly helping, and then accusing anyone who objects for any reason of bigotry. This is a thread full of (afaik) white people discussing and defending this change at great length, and just like the one about ‘indian summer’, there is zero input from the people affected. That makes me skeptical about who this is really aimed at. And why are there so few black people posting on this board? I was curious so I looked at a mostly black message board to see what people there were saying. There were only a few posts. Most of the discussion was about taking Aunt Jemima off packaging; I learned something there. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2021, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normal-is-the-new-abnormal-forbidden-adjectives/937554/188 "2021-03-14T11:32:00Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > But how much actual difference is there between Brand X’s product for dry or for oily or neither hair?? I’ll second the comment that yes, there are differences. The products for dry hair mostly leave me feeling like i still need to wash my hair. And some leave my hair more…i dunno…coarse?..fluffy?..tangly? than others. And I’ve shampooed with just Dr. Bronner’s in a pinch, at a hotel, and it leaves my hair hard to manage. It works great as an emergency laundry soap for washing a garment in the sink, though, so i always carry a little when i travel. ---
**Author:** ![Author\_Balk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Author\_Balk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Author_Balk)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2021, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normal-is-the-new-abnormal-forbidden-adjectives/937554/189 "2021-03-14T13:24:33Z")
I thought of dresses. They are Petite, Misses and Plus. Both petite and plus are obviously about size. Misses does not say anything about size (but is about gender - another topic). Maybe a similar type term could be used. I can’t think of one off the top of my head. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2021, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normal-is-the-new-abnormal-forbidden-adjectives/937554/190 "2021-03-14T14:22:02Z")
As someone with curly hair (often worn straight), I’m seeing more marketing that looks like this: > **[All About Curls](https://www.ouidad.com/pages/all-about-curls)** > **[Fact: There Are 12 (!!) Different Hair Types—Here's How to Style Yours](https://www.cosmopolitan.com/style-beauty/beauty/a31956130/hair-types/)** > > THIS IS EVERYTHING. None of this labels any of these curl patterns as “normal” - but my 2c/3a curls take a completely different set of products than someone who is 3c/4a. And you do have to be careful curly hair product shopping - curly having so many meanings. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2021, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normal-is-the-new-abnormal-forbidden-adjectives/937554/191 "2021-03-14T20:25:37Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > But I have found, over the years, that some shampoo doesn’t get my hair feeling clean; shampoos claiming to be designed for daily use in particular generally don’t … > [@puzzlegal](#): > > I’ll second the comment that yes, there are differences. The products for dry hair mostly leave me feeling like i still need to wash my hair. So now I’ve gotten curious about what the actual product differences are, and what makes a product marketed as being for “normal” hair, not a best choice for median or average Black hair (other than marketing). To the first I could find this! > **[Shampoo and Conditioners: What a Dermatologist Should Know?](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4458934/)** > > Dermatologists many a times encounter questions from patients and even colleagues asking about how to keep their hair looking clean, healthy and beautiful. Therefore, familiarity and a basic knowledge of the available hair care products will help... > [@](#): > > The challenge is to remove just enough sebum to allow the hair to appear clean and leave behind enough conditioning agents to leave the hair soft, shiny and manageable.[[8](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4458934/#ref8)] This balancing act between good cleaning and beautifying the hair is an art achieved by mixing various ingredients in the correct proportion in the shampoo preparation. The modern advances in chemistry and technology have made it possible to replace the soap bases with complex formulation which contain cleansing agents, conditioning agents along with functional additives … > > … Normal hair shampoo is for people who have hair which are chemically untouched and scalp which produces moderate sebum. Favorite with men. Normal hair shampoos use lauryl sulfate as the primary detergent providing good cleansing and minimal conditioning. > > Dry hair shampoo is for people who have undergone chemical treatment or harsh styling procedures. These shampoos provide mild cleansing and good conditioning. > > Oily hair shampoo is for people who produce abundant sebum. They contain lauryl sulfates or sulfosuccinates as detergents and no conditioner. > > Everyday shampoo is for people who want to daily wash their hair along with bath lest they feel dirty. They generally contain mild detergents and typically do not incorporate the conditioners. But an instant stand-alone conditioner is recommended which can be applied immediately after shampooing in the shower and completely rinsed from the hair prior to drying. > > Deep cleaning shampoo is for people who frequently use styling products, such as hair spray, gel, and mousse. These polymers build up on the hair shaft after continuous use and make the hair look rough, dull and feel harsh. To remove these polymers, a strong detergent like lauryl sulfates is used as their primary detergent. These shampoos are typically used once weekly. > > Baby shampoo is for babies where mild detergent is used which is non-irritating to the eyes and achieves mild cleansing, as babies produce limited sebum. They contain the amphoteric group detergents, such as the betaines which actually numbs the eye tissues … > > Conditioner molecules contain cationic surfactant which gives a positive electric charge to the conditioner. The negative charge of the hair is attracted to the positively charged conditioner molecules, which results in conditioner getting deposited on the hair, especially on areas where there is degree of weathering.[[1](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4458934/#ref1),[42](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4458934/#ref42),[43](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4458934/#ref43)] This is true for damaged hair as they are even more negatively charged. Thus, conditioners reduce the static electricity. They also flatten the cuticle scales over the hair shaft, reducing the friction between hair fibers, increasing the reflectance of light which improves shine and color … Now of course even in my ignorant state I appreciate that the hair of Blacks has a wide variety of types, but is on average of a different average type than is the hair of whites … and that hair has a whole load of cultural meanings for Black Americans that is very different than many white subgroups. But what is actually different about hair products targeted to Black consumers than the hair products targeted to white consumers and what actual hair need is it based on? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2021, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normal-is-the-new-abnormal-forbidden-adjectives/937554/192 "2021-03-14T20:49:34Z")
I have zero knowledge of how hair products for Black people’s hair differ from hair products for any other hair. In fact, it surprises me, and this thread is the first I’ve heard of it. I know that barbers and hair dressers need different skills to cut tightly curled hair as compared to straighter hair, but i would have guessed the same shampoos worked for all people and most other mammals. 🤷‍♀️ I may ask my daughter in law. Also, your cite supports my shopping for products that contain laurel sulphates. I’ve had good luck with those, and that’s what i look for these days. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2021, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normal-is-the-new-abnormal-forbidden-adjectives/937554/193 "2021-03-14T20:59:16Z")
But, even without any racial component, i can think of lots of other people who might prefer it if their shampoo company doesn’t imply they are “not normal”. Teenagers of every race come to mind. So this seems like a good change. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2021, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normal-is-the-new-abnormal-forbidden-adjectives/937554/194 "2021-03-14T21:01:04Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > i would have guessed the same shampoos worked for all people and most other mammals. There is some crossover between human and non-human shampoo products, most notably the well-known [Mane ‘n’ Tail brand](https://www.healthline.com/health/horse-shampoo#how-to-use), but there are differences in the formulation that may make non-human shampoo products less desirable for some people. [Dog shampoo in particular](https://animalnerdz.com/can-humans-use-dog-shampoo/) is not generally recommended for human use, due mostly to skin pH differences. For the same reason, [human shampoos are not recommended for dog washing](https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/health/human-shampoo-on-dogs/). ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2021, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normal-is-the-new-abnormal-forbidden-adjectives/937554/195 "2021-03-14T21:07:57Z")
Well, my daughter-in-law says, > generally, yeah. the hair texture is different, so it benefits from different concoctions This is also the first she’s heard of this, so they aren’t getting all that much press. But she thought it was a good idea not to single out one type of hair as “normal”. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2021, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normal-is-the-new-abnormal-forbidden-adjectives/937554/196 "2021-03-14T21:08:33Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > But what is actually different about hair products targeted to Black consumers than the hair products targeted to white consumers and what actual hair need is it based on? Curly hair is generally drier than straight because the sebum doesn’t spread down the shaft as easily. Which means it shouldn’t be washed as often and you need a milder shampoo. Also many black people have chemically treated hair, which makes it more fragile, and the different styling requires different products. The coconut oil I mentioned earlier helps define the curls and reduce frizz. That’s what my sister uses in my niece’s hair. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2021, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normal-is-the-new-abnormal-forbidden-adjectives/937554/197 "2021-03-14T21:13:30Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > This is also the first she’s heard of this, so they aren’t getting all that much press. Yeah, if you’re not being constantly bombarded with media recreational outrage about the evils of left-wing “wokeness”, you might not even notice most of this stuff. I doubt I’d ever have consciously encountered this issue if the OP hadn’t started a thread to harrumph about it. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2021, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normal-is-the-new-abnormal-forbidden-adjectives/937554/198 "2021-03-14T21:15:07Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > But in these hysterical times, I see a new wave of hysteria a-brewing. Some day in the distant future, historians are going to look back and conclude we are now in the grips of a mass insanity. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2021, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normal-is-the-new-abnormal-forbidden-adjectives/937554/199 "2021-03-14T21:15:39Z")
She’s kind of libertarian, politically. So i wouldn’t expect her to get too excited about some company choosing to modify their marketing. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2021, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normal-is-the-new-abnormal-forbidden-adjectives/937554/200 "2021-03-14T21:26:54Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > Some day in the distant future, historians are going to look back and conclude we are now in the grips of a mass insanity. While I agree that responding to a minor modification of commercial shampoo branding by melodramatically demanding “What adjectives will be left? Will the English language (or all languages) be stripped of all adjectives?” does come across as a bit unbalanced, I remain optimistically hopeful that such reactions aren’t really as “mass” as the amplifying effects of modern social media might suggest. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normal-is-the-new-abnormal-forbidden-adjectives/937554.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normal-is-the-new-abnormal-forbidden-adjectives/937554.md?page=11)