# Normally, I'm opposed to regicide, but then again... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 5, 2002, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normally-im-opposed-to-regicide-but-then-again/140595 "2002-12-05T01:49:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normally-im-opposed-to-regicide-but-then-again/140595/21 "2002-12-06T04:08:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \*Clearly, it’s a major cultural event in Swaziland. Yes, they dance naked. And no, nobody forced them to dance naked. And if the OP were a rant about how thousands of innocent girls in southern Africa were forced to dance naked, that might actually be a relevant point. But the rant here is that, after the dance, this girl was kidnapped from her school, seperated from her friends and family, and forced to prostitute herself to the local autocrat. And I don’t see anything about girls at this reed dance thing agreeing to any of that. I do see them participating in an activity that I assume is important to their culture and which _gasp_ has differing standards of modesty than found in most Christian societies! It’s fucking hot in Africa. I’m not surprised that they’re more casual about nudity than we are. How you can extrapolate from this that the girls were **hoping** to be kidnapped and forced into marriage with a man they’ve never even met is astonishing and disgusting. Are you also of the opinion that women who wear tight clothes are asking to be raped? Hmmm…Apparently, this dance isn’t just about dancing naked. The king picking new wives amongst the dancers is part (the whole point?) of the ceremony : According to [this site](http://www.natal.co.za/nco) \*The annual Zulu Reed Dance tradition is a festive ceremony whereby the Zulu King Zwelithini is entertained by Zulu maidens. If a lady catches his eye he can choose her for his wife. He currently has five wives the last of which he claimed at a Reed Dance in 1993. \* ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normally-im-opposed-to-regicide-but-then-again/140595/22 "2002-12-06T04:16:42Z")
[Another cite](http://allafrica.com/stories/200008280170.html) : \*Disgruntled subjects in eastern Swaziland are boycotting this weekend’s \*\*Umhlanga Reed Dance, an annual pageant at which the king picks a new bride \*_, in protest against a chieftaincy row that may see them being evicted from their ancestral land._ [Or :](http://www.polishfilmla.org/2000/films/dance.htm) _The annual Reed Dance lasts six days. A large group of girls set out to cut reed; for six days they dance before the King,_\* hoping to be chosen to become yet another of his wives or concubine. \*\* There are two groups of protagonists in the film: King Mswati III and the members of the royal family, and \*\* four fifteen-year-old girlfriends, students from one school, who think what to do to make the King notice just one of them during the Reed Dance and choose one of them for his wife or concubine \*\* \* So, the whole ceremony seems to actually be a contest to become a spouse or concubine of the king. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normally-im-opposed-to-regicide-but-then-again/140595/23 "2002-12-06T04:30:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cichlidiot \* > \*\*The 60 Minutes II program referred to in the OP didn’t show it that way. Witnesses stated when Zena was taken from the school, she was fighting to not be put in the car. It was also stated she had a boyfriend at the time. I wondered about her attending the reed dance as well, they didn’t elaborate on her reasons for being there, other than stating it was the first one she had attended. . \*\* That’s what the OP’s link says. But knowing that the girl participated in a “become the king’s next wife” contest and given that \*\* Duck Duck \*\* has read reports which made him think that the whole story is somewhat fishy, perhaps it’s actually fishy. The fact the mother claims her daughter has been abducted doesn’t make it true. We don’t know the king’s point of view, and not even the daughter’s point of view. ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normally-im-opposed-to-regicide-but-then-again/140595/24 "2002-12-06T05:30:56Z")
I’m more and more dubious of main source “expert” reporting. Frustrating, because it forces outsiders like me to filter their smug biases through my own. My take? (Which is worth exactly nil, btw.) Most ceremonial festivals, even ours, have all kinds of symbolism and meanings underneath. Danged few of 'em are intended to be taken literally. Halloween trick or treating doesn’t equal devil worship. It’s possible, and I maintain _customary_, for people to embrace celebrations on all kinds of levels. I don’t think any outsider, and few insiders for that matter, can say X celebration means Y. The fact that the mother bucked an impossibly–_impossibly_–loaded system at all suggests a lot to me. It isn’t a ridiculously litigious society like ours. She’s lost hugely and has damned more to lose by even protesting. It’s a society in the throes of rapid change. Her daughter could have participated, celebrating her people and culture, without realizing how little actual power structures had changed. Qui bono? Certainly not the mother, other than trying to get her daughter free… _to a life where their futures are moot_. At the very best, they have no future in their own land: mother, daughter, boyfriend. I’m croggling that anyone could examine this situation, inadequately reported as it probably is, and project comfy prom queen assumptions onto it. Our cultural changes are wrenching; why assume that any people’s lives are so easily packaged? Veb ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normally-im-opposed-to-regicide-but-then-again/140595/25 "2002-12-06T05:48:20Z")
As I saw it on the BBC the reed dance is mostly a cultural event, a passing of age of sorts. The fact that it was originally intended as a mass date for the king is just a side effect. What I heard most saying is that it is a tradition. Even if the whole thing was about the king picking a wife, it is still not justifiable the kidnapping/rape thing (I assume that it was rape, even if it was sans violence). When you say NO, it doesn’t matter what you had said or done before, the NO stands. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normally-im-opposed-to-regicide-but-then-again/140595/26 "2002-12-06T06:25:06Z")
Miller, you are so caught up in the tragedy and romance of the Abducted Bride that you have quit paying attention to the facts. > [@](#): > > \*\*and forced to prostitute herself to the local autocrat. \*\* Um, what? Excuse me? She’s now a Fiancee, or did you not notice that? In line to become an actual Queen. Who said anything about prostitution? Prostitutes are discarded when the thrill is gone–Zena’s officially acknowledged, he’s stuck with her now. And nobody forced her. How many times do I have to say that? She volunteered. > [@](#): > > \*\*And I don’t see anything about girls at this reed dance thing agreeing to any of that. \*\* Bullshit. Every single one of those 20,000 girls knows _exactly_ what the Reed Dance is for. “Social event” my ass. The first thing you learn about the Swaziland Reed Dance, if you Google it, is [that](http://allafrica.com/stories/200008280170.html) it’s an “an annual pageant at which the king picks a new bride”: > [@](#): > > African Eye News Service (Nelspruit) > > August 27, 2000 > Posted to the web August 28, 2000 > > Lunga Masuku > Mbabane > > Disgruntled subjects in eastern Swaziland are boycotting this weekend’s Umhlanga Reed Dance, an annual pageant at which the king picks a new bride, in protest against a chieftaincy row that may see them being evicted from their ancestral land. > > Residents of Macetjeni, near the Mozambican border, resolved during a community meeting last weekend that sending their daughters to the ceremony would be an effective endorsement of a system that has deposed their chiefs and wants to evict them. > > The Reed Dance is scheduled to be held at a royal residence in Lobamba, outside Mbabane. Thousands of maidens have already left for ‘the cutting of the reed’, a ceremony during which they collect wild reeds to construct the enclosures in which the dance is held. > > The Reed Dance is one of Swaziland’s main tourist attractions and is also one of the key cultural elements behind the monarchy’s enduring relevance. The dance sees a bevy of bare-breasted maidens dancing for the king, who is expected to pick a new bride from among them. Notice that it’s up to the adults of Macetjeni whether they want to send their daughters to the ceremony. They feel that their daughters _belong_ to them. Lindiwe Dlamini feels that her daughter _belongs_ to her. This isn’t about an Abducted Bride and a Grieving Mother–this is about theft. And furthermore, it’s about theft from a couple of not-very-bright people, sorry. When the King starts calling, Mom gets worried and flees with Zena to Switzerland. And then–they came back? I mean, geez. Okay, I’m trying to visualize myself in this situation. The Cat Who Walks Alone, who is 18, has inadvertently attracted the attention of the king, who is an absolute monarch and a major PITA. She repulses his advances, but things do not look good. Any day now she may be forced to join him in his palace. So what do I, as a caring mother, do? Well, evidently I have enough money to go live in Switzerland. So I do. And then after a while, what, somebody in the king’s entourage calls me up and says, “Hey, we found a loophole, your daughter’s ineligible, you can come back.” Annnnnd–I believe him? Because, what, I don’t know that this king doesn’t take “no” for an answer, I’m so stupid that I haven’t heard all the talk about how he suppresses people who disagree with him, and I don’t realize that he’s basically a total dictator? So I just ignore all that–and I come back? With my daughter? Yeah right. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > **It’s fucking hot in Africa. I’m not surprised that they’re more casual about nudity than we are.** Oh, so your position is that it’s just a sort of innocent Fourth of July celebration, with moms and babies and grandmas and picnic blankets and things, and all the teenage females just happen to be naked? Sheesh, get a clue. [Swaziland schools to ban mini-skirts](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/841319.stm) > [@](#): > > Wednesday, 19 July, 2000 > School girls in Swaziland are to be prevented from wearing mini-skirts from the beginning of next year, in what the government is portraying as an attempt to halt the spread of Aids. > > \< snip \> > > The new law requires that girls aged 10 years old and above must wear knee-length skirts or face expulsion if they breach the ban. > > \< snip \> > > In 1969, Swaziland banned all mini-skirts for morality reasons but the order lapsed because it was difficult to police dress codes in public. [http://www.lonelyplanet.com/destinations/africa/swaziland/culture.htm](http://www.lonelyplanet.com/destinations/africa/swaziland/culture.htm) > [@](#): > > Swazi national dress is striking and you’ll see it worn frequently, especially at ceremonies. [http://www.heritageafrica.com/wheretogoswaziland.cfm](http://www.heritageafrica.com/wheretogoswaziland.cfm) > [@](#): > > Although western dress is widely utilized, the Swazis have a distinctive, colorful national dress known as emahiya, which is regularly worn with different accessories and head dresses, depending on the status and age of the individual, as well as on the occasion. Pictures of real life Swazis. I can’t help noticing that none of the females are naked, or even slightly naked. Or is that just the photographer’s bias? Afraid to post pix of nekkid Africans on the Internet? [http://www.geocities.com/MarkBlosser/pictures/africanculture/](http://www.geocities.com/MarkBlosser/pictures/africanculture/) In Swazi culture, as in American culture, female public nudity equals female sexual availability, no matter what the date rape laws may say. “See this? You like?” > [@](#): > > \*\*How you can extrapolate from this that the girls were hoping to be kidnapped and forced into marriage with a man they’ve never even met is astonishing and disgusting. \*\*Ah, I love the way the logic dances around there. I "extrapolated’ that the girls were “hoping to be kidnapped”? No, I said that the girls were hoping to be chosen as queen, not hoping to be kidnapped. In your anxiety to be politically correct and weigh in on the side of the poor downtrodden female, you continue to ignore the basic fact that the poor downtrodden female volunteered for this. Evidently she’s changed her mind, and apparently so has her mother. I’m sorry for both of them, but sheesh, they both knew exactly what might happen when she joined the group going down to the Reed-Cutting Ceremony. The Swazi King chooses wives at the Reed Ceremony. Fact. And moreover, a fact that’s known to every travel agent in the world, let alone the folks who actually live in Swaziland. I also noted while reading up on this that the whole Reed Ceremony, from start to finish, takes several days. It’s not like 20,000 naked teenagers suddenly parade past the king during one afternoon. They cut reeds, and they march down to the Queen Mother’s palace, and they sing songs, and stuff like that. It sounds like a sort of Girl Scout Jamboree. So Zena could have bowed out at any time and gone home, took a pass on the thing. > [@](#): > > \*\*Are you also of the opinion that women who wear tight clothes are asking to be raped? \*\* Oh, gee, let’s compare girls who audition as a sex partner with women who happen to be wearing tight clothes…How marvelously irrelevant. > [@](#): > > \*\*Are you saying here that your two daughters would gladly sleep with a guy they barely know if he had a lot of money and/or power? \*\* Again, you’re not paying attention and you continue to introduce irrelevancies. We’re not talking about “sex” here, we’re talking about marriage. I wouldn’t be _happy_ if either one of my daughters announced she was going to marry a man she barely knew but who was rich and powerful, but I wouldn’t be so appalled that I’d pack up and move with her to Switzerland. > [@](#): > > \*\*No, I’m guessing they’re there to dance. That’s why most people go to dances, right? \*\*Geez, talk about not paying attention. It’s not a fucking sock hop, Miller. My cites. Behold–the Swaziland sex scene. [[No new bride for Swazi king](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/africa/904885.stm) [Swaxi king takes eighth wife.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1568163.stm) [Swaziland dissent over no-sex ban](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1621459.stm) [Sex-ban Swazi king pays fine](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1651154.stm) [Swazi princess dons chastity tassel](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1716016.stm) [Swazis queue for Valentine’s gift](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1820848.stm) [Swazi king takes ninth wife](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2023420.stm) [Swazi king chooses tenth wife](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2275830.stm) [‘Mother-in-law’ sues Swazi king](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/africa/2335941.stm) [Swazi court defies king](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2385849.stm) [Swaziland schoolgirl made ’ royal fiancee’](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2396053.stm) [Swazi polygamy under spotlight](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2489015.stm). Sex and sexuality is a big issue in Swaziland. They have one of the highest HIV/AIDS rates in Africa. Male promiscuity is a huge part of the culture; the women are chattel. You’re imposing Western values on this culture when you use words like “prostitution” and “rape” in conjunction with this whole Swazi bride thing. This is the way the culture works–the women are “chosen”, they’re “taken”, and it’s not “rape” or “prostitution”, it’s “marriage”. It’s a mistake to read this whole thing as a Phyllis Whitney Gothic romance with the Abducted Bride weeping into her hanky. This is how Zena’s culture works. Okay, for the last time: Nobody forces any of these girls to appear at the Reed Dance. No jackbooted thugs go and drag all the eligible virgins out of the bosom of their families to appear naked before the king. If they don’t want to be picked as the next queen, all they gotta do is stay home. I’m sorry that Mom is sad she isn’t going to be able to have contact with her daughter now that she is officially a Fiancee, but many mothers don’t have any contact with their daughters once they get married. And I’m sorry that this girl evidently has changed her mind about wanting to be Queen, but hey, that’s part of life, you pays your money and you takes your choices. I note that Zena is 18, and in America, she could vote, get married, sign up for as many credit cards as she wanted, buy a house or a car, run for public office, have an abortion, and join the Army, all without her mother’s consent. Teenagers screw up but life goes on. I turned up another inadvertent Swazi bride while Googling around for this. Wife #1, in 1985. [http://www.internationalspecialreports.com/archives/99/swaziland/10.html](http://www.internationalspecialreports.com/archives/99/swaziland/10.html) She was 16, he was the 17-year-old Crown Prince. She says she went to the ceremony “just to dance” (which I believe of a 16-year-old), he spotted her in a video of the Reed Dance, he proposed marriage, she thought he was joking, she was astonished and thrilled, she accepted. Where is she now? [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1692217.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1692217.stm) > [@](#): > > On the social front, King Mswati has had to contend with repeated controversy surrounding his first wife, Queen LaMbikiza (born Sibonelo Mngomezulu). > > She defied a royal tradition that the queen could not have a public job when she trained as a lawyer and is now an advocate of law at the high court. > > Royal sources say that she is trying to ensure that her first-born son, Prince Lindani, succeeds to the throne. They say that she always refers to him as “His Majesty” in front of the king. She’s sure no bimbo kept locked in the harem. Zena, it could be worse. Play your cards right. BTW, it’s a truly pathetic picture 60 Minutes has painted there, poor little Zena in the church pew. Starting out with an emotional bang: > [@](#): > > This is the story of a mother who went to pick up her daughter at school one day, but couldn’t find her anywhere. Her daughter had been abducted out of the school by the country’s king, who took her to be his 10th wife. Oh, yeah, grab the viewer’s attention right away, so they don’t switch over to ABC and watch the Disney movie. The fact that the Reed Dance is actually a deliberate audition is barely mentioned, and it’s buried under the weight of the hugely emotional “child abduction” story. > [@](#): > > When Zena attended this year’s reed dance for the first time, she had no idea it might lead to marriage. So either she’s extremely stupid, or her mother is extremely stupid, or her mother is lying to CBS. Or all of the above. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normally-im-opposed-to-regicide-but-then-again/140595/27 "2002-12-06T06:31:21Z")
I suppose that since there were 20,000 other girls, both Wife #1 and Wife #10 assumed that the odds were against them. Well, that’s what happens when you gamble–sometimes you lose. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normally-im-opposed-to-regicide-but-then-again/140595/28 "2002-12-06T08:07:08Z")
Dang, I see I left out the most important part. Zena was an _also-ran_. In September, King chose Wife #10–named Nolichwa Ayanda Ntenteza. Not Zena Mahlangu. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2275830.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2275830.stm) > [@](#): > > Monday, 23 September, 2002 > > The 34-year-old king chose high school student Nolichwa Ayanda Ntenteza, 18, as his new bride two months after marrying wives number eight and nine. He actually picked three girls. Reading between the lines, Mom filed her lawsuit a month later, when it became clear that Zena wasn’t going to be the official pick for #10. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/africa/2335941.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/africa/2335941.stm) > [@](#): > > Thursday, 17 October, 2002 > > The mother, Lindiwe Dlamini, says her 18-year-old daughter, Zena Mahlangu, was taken away without parental consent and has called for her immediate release. > > A spokesman for the royal family said on Wednesday that three young women, including Zena, were being held at one of the king’s palaces to carry out “royal duties”. > > The father of Noliqhwa Ntentesa, a young woman held together with Zena, has said he would also sue the king if he could afford it. > > “If I had money I would also take those who abducted my child to court like Lindiwe did,” Mr Ntentesa told the paper. > > But the father of the third young woman, Sandra Dlamini, disagreed. > > “If royalty has chosen to go on with what does not please you, as a true Swazi, you should change your attitude and thank royalty for whatever it has decided to do,” he was quoted as saying. So now Mom has what she wanted–Zena is officially #10, and Nolichwa Ayanda Ntenteza gets to be #11. From 60 Minutes: > [@](#): > > Two weeks later, King Mswati announced he was taking his 11th wife – Noliqhwa Ntentesa, also 18. And I can’t help wondering if Mr. Ntenteza is still talking about a lawsuit, now that _his_ daughter is official, too. And I also wonder whether Sandra Dlamini is any relation to Lindiwe Dlamini. It seems to be a common surname in Swaziland, so I guess not. And I’m curious as to what happened to Sandra. [http://www.itechnology.co.za/index.php?set\_id=1&click\_id=68&art\_id=vn20021105055604226C923868](http://www.itechnology.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=68&art_id=vn20021105055604226C923868) > [@](#): > > \*\*November 05 2002 \*\* > > By Bhekie Matsebula > > Mbabane - Swaziland’s King Mswati III has rejected one of the young maidens he chose at this year’s reed dance and given her to his 60-year-old brother, King Maja II of the Mamba clan in southern Swaziland. > > Mswati chose Sandra Dlamini, 18, at the same ceremony - in which bare-breasted maidens dance for the king - at which he chose Zena Mahlangu to be his wife. > > Mswati would not comment on the court battle over Mahlangu, 18, whom he had hurriedly made a royal fiancée, effectively making her his 10th wife - and, lawyers and court observers said, effectively scuppering the court case. > > Nor would the king comment on his decision to hand Dlamini over to King Maja. > > Dlamini’s father, a retired police intelligence officer, is delighted, however. > > He said it had long been his wish that one of his daughters should marry a member of the royal family because he was struggling to make ends meet for his family of more than 10. > > His daughter’s marriage to a king would bring a better life for them. > > “I would not have taken the king to court as Lindiwe Dlamini did,” he said. “She lives a better life, but mine is different.” [http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set\_id=1&click\_id=68&art\_id=vn20021108061835592C518832](http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=68&art_id=vn20021108061835592C518832) > [@](#): > > ‘It’s either the king or nothing for my girl’ > > \*\*November 08 2002 \*\* > > By Bhekie Matsebula > > Lozitha, Swaziland - The father of Sandra Dlamini, 18, has had second thoughts and says he will not allow King Mswati III to “give” her to 60-year-old King Maja II of the Mamba clan. > > The teenager was chosen earlier this year to become one of the Mswati’s wives. > > Sipho Dlamini said he was in favour of his daughter marrying into Swaziland’s royal family, but he would not accept her being handed over to someone outside the family. > > Maja is not a member of the immediate family. His clan lives in southern Swaziland. > > Speaking from his home near the palace, the former police intelligence officer said he was waiting for the three months - during which the royal family was to decide whether his daughter would become a fiancée of Mswati - to pass. > > Sandra is being kept at the Ludzidzini royal residence. > > She was selected by courtiers Qethuka Dlamini and Tulujane Sikhondze about a month ago. > > Royal insiders said Sandra’s status remained undecided and she could be handed over to someone else because Mswati had chosen Zena Mahlangu, 18, as his official fiancée. > > This article was originally published on page 5 of The Cape Times on 08 November 2002 The king also says in this article that he had an ongoing long-term relationship with Zena, and that it was her mother who tried to keep them apart. [http://www.itechnology.co.za/index.php?set\_id=1&click\_id=68&art\_id=vn20021112063757441C186072](http://www.itechnology.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=68&art_id=vn20021112063757441C186072) > [@](#): > > New twists in ongoing saga of Mswati’s women > > \*\*November 12 2002 \*\* > > By Bhekie Matsebula > > Mbabane - The saga of the Swazi king’s three would-be fiancées keeps making news. > > One of the girls has been relocated after attempts by her family to reclaim her; another’s mother has risked fines for breaking the king’s own sex and marriage ban; while the third is rumoured to be pregnant. > > Noliqhwa Ntentesa had been residing at the Prestige guest house for the past month, but after rumours that her parents wanted to take her away, she was removed to one of the king’s palaces, which is heavily guarded. > > Noliqhwa’s parents declined to confirm the rumours. > > Royal sources disclosed that Sandra Dlamini was suspected to be pregnant. This could not be confirmed officially by Mswati’s private secretary, Paul Shabangu. You wanna hear about that “another’s mother has risked fines for breaking the king’s own sex and marriage ban”? That’s here. [http://www.itechnology.co.za/index.php?set\_id=1&click\_id=68&art\_id=vn20021111062026152C935985](http://www.itechnology.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=68&art_id=vn20021111062026152C935985) > [@](#): > > Swazi maidens storm home of Zena’s mother > > November 11 2002 at 06:20AM > > By Bhekie Matsebula > > Mbabane - In what appeared to be further intimidation of the mother of the 18-year-old girl picked by Swazi King Mswati to become his fiancée, more than 50 maidens stormed the home of Lindiwe Dlamini over the weekend and threw their tassels in her yard. > > The action is part of a Swazi custom and a sign that Zena Mahlangu had broken the tassels rite. > > Dlamini made it clear to the maidens that she would never pay the cow or the R1 300 fine for allowing her daughter to be taken away to the royal family. [http://www.sabcnews.com/africa/southern\_africa/0,1009,46928,00.html](http://www.sabcnews.com/africa/southern_africa/0,1009,46928,00.html) > [@](#): > > Confrontation between traditionalists and Zena’s mother > November 10, 2002, 17:00 > > The controversy over the alleged abduction of 18-year-old Zena Mahlangu to become King Mswati III’s 10th wife flared up again with a confrontation between Mahlangu’s mother and traditionalists. The saga was thought to be over when Mahlangu’s mother, Lindiwe Dlamini, suspended her high court action against the king for abduction. > > This came after Mahlangu’s announcement that she loved the king and had consented to marry him. However, yesterday, a crowd of young Swazi women gathered outside Dlamini’s home to levy a traditional punishment - a fine of a cow - for allowing her daughter’s engagement during a period of national chastity among all childless Swazi women (umcwasho). I also found this. [http://www.sabcnews.com/africa/southern\_africa/0,1009,41837,00.html](http://www.sabcnews.com/africa/southern_africa/0,1009,41837,00.html) > [@](#): > > Swazi King to choose wife number 10 > August 30, 2002, 05:30 > > As the HIV/Aids scourge sweeps through tiny, impoverished Swaziland, its absolute monarch, King Mswati III, is expected to take his 10th wife tomorrow at the close of the country’s traditional reed dance festivities. The festivities started in earnest on August 23, when thousands of young girls were released to go out and cut the reed, which will be used to build the fence of the Queen Mother’s homestead. > > Mswati is widely expected to pick a wife from among these girls, some of who are as young as seven years old. Mswati married his ninth wife early this year, and, as the tradition demands, he will be required to take another wife as he continues to search for the suitable mother of his heir. Palace sources intimated that his aides had already identified the next wife, and the rest of the process is going to be a formality. There is a LOT more to this whole story than the 60 Minutes “Abducted Bride” tearjerker. These girls are _property_. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normally-im-opposed-to-regicide-but-then-again/140595/29 "2002-12-06T08:21:07Z")
Let me sort this out. The girl (even if she wanted it before, craved for it, dreamed about it eveyr night and it was the sole reason why she participated in the reed dance) changed her mind at the last moment. She came back from Switzerland only AFTER she believed Zena was safe. The mother demanded the return of her daughter. The way I see it, it is still abduction. ‘Property’ or not, I don’t see how it makes it any more hideous. She is a human being, not a cow, and therefore deserves not to be pushed into an unwanted relationship. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normally-im-opposed-to-regicide-but-then-again/140595/30 "2002-12-06T14:28:52Z")
Honestly, \*\* MIghty girl \*\*, after reading all \*\* Duck Duck \*\* sites, I’m not really convinced that the daughter has been abducted against her will. It seems to me that she wanted to become queen and ended up only concubine. Her mother at least is pissed off. Would she have been upset if the daughter was the official 10th wife?We don’t know…apparently she only began to protest _after_ it became clear that her daughter wouldn’t be queen (If I understand correctly). Is the daughter herself upset? We don’t know, either. The OP link isn’t an actual inquiry about the intricacies of this issue, but merely a sensationalized report of the mother’s (and mother’s lawyer) point of view. I would personnally abstain from making a judgment on such a flimpsy basis. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normally-im-opposed-to-regicide-but-then-again/140595/31 "2002-12-06T14:47:11Z")
**Duck Duck Goose** you must love when people say cite to you. Said it before and I’ll say it again you’re such a classy smart ass. That’s a very good thing in my book BTW 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normally-im-opposed-to-regicide-but-then-again/140595/32 "2002-12-06T15:00:15Z")
60 Minutes doesn’t say exactly when the abduction was supposed to have taken place, but I found this. The Boyfriend speaks. He says that Mom was the one who initially brought Zena to see the King. He says they came back from Switzerland on October 6 and the abduction was October 9. Note: This article’s date is November 9, not September 11. [http://www.news24.com/News24/Africa/News/0,1113,1447\_1283052,00.html](http://www.news24.com/News24/Africa/News/0,1113,1447_1283052,00.html) > [@](#): > > 09/11/2002 23:49 - (SA) > Zena was mine first, says beau > > Mapula Sibanda > > Johannesburg - > > Sibusiso Tjotjo Kuhlase…spoke for the first time…in an exclusive interview with City Press. > > Kuhlase [is] a final-year student at Wits Technikon… > > …Ironically, it was Kuhlase who took Zena to her first reed dance two years ago, mainly to satisfy her curiosity about this age-old Swazi ritual. Then, she covered herself in her traditional cloth (lihiya) and a T-shirt. > > This year, when Zena told him she was accompanying Miss Swaziland, Nozipho Shabangu, and planned to go bare-breasted and in full traditional attire, Kuhlase said he warned her against it. > > “I instinctively had this feeling that she should not go there, but she had already made up her mind that she was going.” > > Kuhlase said Zena had befriended Shabangu, who is going out with his older brother, Sabelo. > > On the day of the reed dance at Embangweni on September 15, Zena went to the event with Kuhlase’s two brothers, Sabelo and Sonke. > > “I understand Nozipho had asked to see the king to ask for a sponsorship for her reign and for a study bursary,” said Kuhlase. > > He said the king had by then already spotted Zena and later revealed his interest in her when, after they had left, he sent someone to fetch Nozipho and her friends. So apparently the Reed Dance goes on a lot longer than I thought, because the BF says the King spotted Zena on September 15. Or maybe it moves around to different venues. Anyway, what this all says to me is that on September 15 she went bare-breasted, as an audition, and that she knew full well that there was a chance she’d be chosen, and also, since she was in the company of no less a personage than Miss Swaziland, who is dating the BF’s older brother, that she stood an excellent chance of catching the king’s eye. She and Miss Swaziland _went to see the king_ (“Oh, I just wanted to ask the king for a sponsorship and a bursary…”), and voila! Success. > [@](#): > > “…_after they had left, he sent someone to fetch Nozipho and her friends…_” Nope, you can’t persuade me that this is an innocent abducted virgin, no way. She knew exactly what she was doing. She auditioned, she got the part–and now she’s happy. I found this. [http://www.worldonline.co.za/news/news\_center\_021029.541848.html](http://www.worldonline.co.za/news/news_center_021029.541848.html) > [@](#): > > ‘Abducted’ girl says she wants to marry king > > [Mbabane, October 28] - > > The young woman at the centre of a dispute between Swaziland’s King Mswati III and her mother - who claims the teenager was abducted - says she is ready to marry the 34-year-old king. > > Zena Soraya Mahlangu gave Deutsche Presse-Agentur an exclusive interview, which could end the lawsuit the girl’s mother, Lindiwe Dlamini, has filed for her release. Mahlangu said she was ready to get married; nothing could make her change her mind. > > “Not even the lawsuit my mother is pursuing will make me change my mind about getting married to the king,” Zena said. She repeatedly referred to Mswati as “my husband”. > > Zena, 18, said she had settled in to her new life. “I have told the two court messengers that I am happy here and want to be married to the king. They will report this message to the court,” she said. > > \< snip \> > > “I am happy with everything and I have even been taken shopping. I am now preparing to take my place in the royal household and become a good wife to my husband,” Zena said. > > Zena was spotted at a busy shopping mall in Ezulwini, 10km outside the capital of Mbabane. According to eyewitnesses, she appeared relaxed and was enjoying every moment. So she appears in church, and Lara Logan of CBS thinks she looks “overwhelmed”. Well, yeah, look at it from Zena’s perspective–she thought it was just a career move, fulfilling her destiny as Somebody’s Wife, and she even managed to snag the King himself as that Somebody–and here suddenly it’s a media firestorm, and her mother is filing lawsuits and being harassed, and to top it all off, I can’t imagine that the previous wives are making it easy for the Newbie. In many polygamous societies, it’s traditional for the Old Wives to be absolutely beastly to the New Wife, and why should Swaziland be any different? ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normally-im-opposed-to-regicide-but-then-again/140595/33 "2002-12-06T15:10:55Z")
So she catches the king’s eye on September 15, and then on September 23 it’s announced that he’s evidently going with his original choice for #10, so Zena’s out, unless she can get him for #11 next year, which seems doubtful, as he likes them young (he’s looking for healthy teenage brood mares, remember), and at 19 she’ll probably be too old, but she won’t quit talking to him on her cell phone, dammit, so Mom packs her off to Switzerland. And when they come back, the King, annoyed at the slap in the face (“she’s mine”) sends his people to fetch her. And so Mom files her lawsuit, because reading the stories about the “tassel casting” thing, where she simply bundled all the tassels into a Hefty sack with a big “fuck you” to the Outraged Maidens, she sounds to me like One Tough Lady, but now she’s being harassed, so she belatedly tries to enlist the help of the Western media, and 60 Minutes obligingly airs only her side of the story, which she has slanted to turn it into the Story of the Abducted Virgin Bride instead of the Story of the Teenager Who Won’t Listen To Her Mother And Who Thinks She Knows What’s Best For Her Life. That’s what it looks like to me. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normally-im-opposed-to-regicide-but-then-again/140595/34 "2002-12-06T15:14:41Z")
Dang, hit Submit too soon. … And so the lawsuit embarrasses the King into naming Zena as #10, and Mom drops the lawsuit, and he gets his first pick as #11 after all. ---
**Author:** ![cichlidiot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f9b8f/32.png) [@cichlidiot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cichlidiot)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normally-im-opposed-to-regicide-but-then-again/140595/35 "2002-12-06T19:23:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by clairobscur \* > \*\*That’s what the OP’s link says. But knowing that the girl participated in a “become the king’s next wife” contest and given that \*\* Duck Duck \*\* has read reports which made him think that the whole story is somewhat fishy, perhaps it’s actually fishy. The fact the mother claims her daughter has been abducted doesn’t make it true. We don’t know the king’s point of view, and not even the daughter’s point of view. \*\* It doesn’t seem to be just the mother claiming she was abducted. From the link, “The king’s aides found Zena here at her school. Witnesses say two men grabbed her and were seen forcing her into a waiting car. Zena appeared to be resisting. The last time they saw her, she was in the back seat sandwiched between the two men as the car sped away.” I think that could certainly be read as sensationalized, and I completely agree with you that we don’t know the king’s point of view or Zena’s. It’s tough to know all of the facts. The interview with the king did seem to be an exercise in side-stepping, that may not mean anything either, but it couldn’t have hurt to set the public “right” in that interview so I’m not sure why he didn’t. I realize it’s old news now, but still think there is a case for this being more than sour grapes on the mother’s part. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normally-im-opposed-to-regicide-but-then-again/140595/36 "2002-12-07T01:20:19Z")
Well, those are indeed some pretty goddamned impressive cites, **Duck Duck Goose**. I’m still not convinced your interpretation of these events is correct, but it looks a lot more reasonable than it did earlier. Sorry for the harsh tone of my previous post. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normally-im-opposed-to-regicide-but-then-again/140595/37 "2002-12-07T03:24:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cichlidiot \* > \*\*It doesn’t seem to be just the mother claiming she was abducted. From the link, “The king’s aides found Zena here at her school. Witnesses say two men grabbed her and were seen forcing her into a waiting car. Zena appeared to be resisting. The last time they saw her, she was in the back seat sandwiched between the two men as the car sped away.” > \*\* It seems to me that this is what the mother is saying. I don’t see any evidence in this piece that the journalists made any independant inquiry…There’s no interview of the “witnesses”, for instance ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normally-im-opposed-to-regicide-but-then-again/140595/38 "2002-12-07T03:50:08Z")
Oh my GOD. If that’s the bar that’s now been set for cites, I’m never posting again without at least half the McLennan Library behind me. Not even about my own CHILDHOOD. Yeesh. ---
**Author:** ![happyheathen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5e925/32.png) [@happyheathen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/happyheathen)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normally-im-opposed-to-regicide-but-then-again/140595/39 "2002-12-07T04:28:22Z")
**Matt** obviously does not understand the principles of French thought and reason. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normally-im-opposed-to-regicide-but-then-again/140595/40 "2002-12-07T19:33:27Z")
I don’t think there’s any way that anybody will ever really know what’s going on over there, Miller, at least not from reading second and third-hand news accounts on the Web. As I was going through all this stuff, I kept coming across quotes from Kingie that made him sound like the most eminently reasonable guy you could imagine (“hey, I love this girl, and we wanna get married”), and I had to forcibly remind myself that this is the same guy who passes a five-year ban against female virgins having sex–and then goes ahead and moves his fiancee into the palace and presumably has sex with her, fining himself a cow when the palace is stormed by angry villagers. He seems very cheerful about the whole thing, but obviously he’s playing by a different set of rules than the rest of us. For one thing, he’s now reportedly endangering his entire country’s trade relations by insisting on buying a $45 million dollar jet that his Parliament, such as it is, has already voted down, citing better uses for the money, like “food” and “medicine”. [Swazi king insists on royal jet](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2446443.stm) [US threatens Swazi trade deal](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2549827.stm) It must be wonderful to be a king. And I have to say that “Sex-ban Swazi king pays fine” ranks as one of my all-time favorite BBC headlines. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/normally-im-opposed-to-regicide-but-then-again/140595.md?page=1)