# Norman F. Cantor, may you kindly fuck off and die, or at least stop writing, please? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 1, 2005, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norman-f-cantor-may-you-kindly-fuck-off-and-die-or-at-least-stop-writing-please/328994 "2005-11-01T23:20:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![zweisamkeit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zweisamkeit/32/4360_2.png) [@zweisamkeit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zweisamkeit)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norman-f-cantor-may-you-kindly-fuck-off-and-die-or-at-least-stop-writing-please/328994/1 "2005-11-01T23:20:28Z")
So I’m in this mall, see? And a Borders is drawing me in with its special magnetic books. I don’t have much time to browse, but I see a title that looks interesting. Unfortunately, I get back home and check Amazon, and see that [Norman F Cantor’s “In the Wake of the Plague: the Black Death and the World It Made”](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060014342/qid=1130818202/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-9902151-9021734?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) has a dreadful 2 star rating after 143 people reviewed it. “Self!” I said, “You should at least skim it first, right? I mean, you wouldn’t return a book because other people have said it sucks and not even _look_ at it.” So I did. Jaysus Christ. This shit is totally un-fucking acceptable. On page 3, he states [an urban legend](http://www.snopes.com/language/literary/rosie.htm) as fact with: > [@](#): > > In the England of 1500 children were singing a rhyme and playing a game called “Ring Around the Rosies.” When I grew up in Canada in the 1940s children holding hands in a circle still moved around and sang: > > _Ring around the rosies > A pocketful of posies > Ashes, ashes > We all fall down_ > > The origin of the rhyme is the flulike symptoms, skin discoloring, and mortality caused by bubonic plague. [snip] Taking just 30 seconds to go to Snopes informs you of things like: > [@](#): > > How anyone could credibly assert that a rhyme which didn’t appear in print until 1881 actually “began about 1347” is a mystery. If the rhyme were really this old, then “Ring Around the Rosie” antedates even Chaucer’s Canterbury Tales, and therefore we would have examples of this rhyme in Middle English as well as Modern English forms. That irritated me enough. But then I went on another couple of pages and came across some absolutely _atrocious_ writing. > [@](#): > > But the great medical devastation hit no country harder than England in 1348-49 and because of the rich documentation surviving on fourteenth-century England it is in that country that we can best examine its personal and social impact in detail. Holy fucking run-on awkward sentence, Batman! > [@](#): > > Furthermore, there were at least three waves of the Black Death falling upon England over the century following 1350, nowhere near as severe as the cataclysm of the late 1340s, whose severity was unique in human history. But the succeeding outbreaks generated a high mortality nonetheless. So you basically wrote two sentences that had _no reason_ to be there and contradicted each other. If your focus is on the Black Death of 1348-50, why do you go on about these later ones and then basically say, “but they weren’t AS bad, but they were still pretty bad, so, uh… yeah.” I just can’t believe that the back of the book would call him “the premier historian of the Middle Ages”. The inside bio says > [@](#): > > Norman F. Cantor is Emeritus Professor of History, Sociology and Comparitive Literature at New York Universeity. His academic honors include appointments as a Rhodes Scholar, Porter Ogden Jacobus Fellow at Princeton University, and Fullbright Professor at Tel Aviv University. His previous books include _Inventing the Middle Ages_, nominated for a National Book Critics Circle Award, and _The Civilization of the Middle Ages_, the most widely read narrative of the Middle Ages in the English language. While seeing so many Capitalized Titles of Impressiveness seems rather imposing, my thoughts are: 1 - If what was said about those two books are true, he probably had the world’s _best_ editor ever for them. 2 - For some reason that editor wasn’t with him for _this_ book and they hired a mentally disabled goat instead. I mean, goddammit! The title and subject matter hold such goddamned PROMISE and I am left with this book of dreck that I have to return. And to think that I wavered between this and [a nice big book of Icelandic sagas](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0141000031/qid=1130886900/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-9902151-9021734?v=glance&s=books)\*. DAMMIT, you asshole. You teased me with an interesting premise AND YOU TOTALLY COCKED IT UP. I HATE YOU. \*[sub]Yes, I’m aware that I look like the world’s biggest nerd here.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norman-f-cantor-may-you-kindly-fuck-off-and-die-or-at-least-stop-writing-please/328994/2 "2005-11-01T23:24:21Z")
That’s _Differently Abled Goat_, Missy. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norman-f-cantor-may-you-kindly-fuck-off-and-die-or-at-least-stop-writing-please/328994/3 "2005-11-01T23:25:02Z")
You are not the world’s biggest nerd, the Icelandic Sagas is an excellent book, and yes, Norman Cantor needs to retire posthaste. He is not the premier historian of the Middle Ages by any stretch of the imagination. I am sorry you gave his work more time than it deserves. ---
**Author:** ![Orual](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orual](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orual)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norman-f-cantor-may-you-kindly-fuck-off-and-die-or-at-least-stop-writing-please/328994/4 "2005-11-01T23:45:41Z")
I have that book. It was clearly written by a crabby semi-senile old man. Fortunately, it was a gift, so I paid nothing for it. ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norman-f-cantor-may-you-kindly-fuck-off-and-die-or-at-least-stop-writing-please/328994/5 "2005-11-02T01:35:10Z")
Norman Cantor **is** dead. And has been for [for just over a year now](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/10/01/db0103.xml&sSheet=/portal/2004/10/01/ixportal.html). He’s presumably also stopped writing. ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norman-f-cantor-may-you-kindly-fuck-off-and-die-or-at-least-stop-writing-please/328994/6 "2005-11-02T01:37:57Z")
> [@bonzer](#): > > Norman Cantor **is** dead. And has been for [for just over a year now](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/10/01/db0103.xml&sSheet=/portal/2004/10/01/ixportal.html). > > He’s presumably also stopped writing. That never stopped L. Ron Hubbard. ---
**Author:** ![zweisamkeit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zweisamkeit/32/4360_2.png) [@zweisamkeit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zweisamkeit)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norman-f-cantor-may-you-kindly-fuck-off-and-die-or-at-least-stop-writing-please/328994/7 "2005-11-02T01:59:53Z")
> [@bonzer](#): > > Norman Cantor **is** dead. And has been for [for just over a year now](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/10/01/db0103.xml&sSheet=/portal/2004/10/01/ixportal.html). > > He’s presumably also stopped writing. Wow, my Pit thread worked! :eek: Although seriously, that makes me feel a bit bad. Oops. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![mischievous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@mischievous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mischievous)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norman-f-cantor-may-you-kindly-fuck-off-and-die-or-at-least-stop-writing-please/328994/8 "2005-11-02T02:04:56Z")
I was given that book as a gift. I eventually threw it out in rage. Now, my grasp of history is _extremely shaky_ at best, but dear Christ on a hell-hound! On the one hand he feels compelled to explain at length that underage royal princesses of the time didn’t necessarily get to marry for love (ya think?), on the other hand he trys to pass over complex historical arguements with brief statements of “fact” so totally biased that my _completely historically uneducated_ ass cried bullshit. I particularly liked the bold statement (stated as undeniable fact) that kings had **no power**. They were just obeyed because they were so stylish and impressive (I’m not making this up). Because, you know, if all of the noblemen got together and stopped giving the king money and soldiers, he wouldn’t have an army. Duh. Never mind the fact that any nobleman who tried it would get smooshed into dirt. Also nevermind that if you take away the army and the money from pretty much any leader, he becomes powerless. Army + money = power. Kings had both. I was also fond of the repeated accusation against king someone-or-other (did I mention my grasp of history?) of being a sadist. Not because he was particularly mean or anything (as far as I know, and as far as was presented in the book), but because he was **ruling people without being elected by them**. Never mind that that was (a) the norm at the time, and (b) his job. Sadist! Grrrr. mischievous ---
**Author:** ![Snooooopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Snooooopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snooooopy)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norman-f-cantor-may-you-kindly-fuck-off-and-die-or-at-least-stop-writing-please/328994/9 "2005-11-02T02:07:44Z")
> [@bonzer](#): > > Norman Cantor **is** dead. And has been for [for just over a year now](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/10/01/db0103.xml&sSheet=/portal/2004/10/01/ixportal.html). > > He’s presumably also stopped writing. Unfortunately, before he died, he passed his work onto his heir: Billy, age 8. ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norman-f-cantor-may-you-kindly-fuck-off-and-die-or-at-least-stop-writing-please/328994/10 "2005-11-02T13:04:57Z")
> [@zweisamkeit](#): > > Although seriously, that makes me feel a bit bad. Oops. ☹ If it’s any consolation, I was merely amused that the Pitting was, inadvertently, quite so unfortunately phrased. ---
**Author:** ![Beadalin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Beadalin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beadalin)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norman-f-cantor-may-you-kindly-fuck-off-and-die-or-at-least-stop-writing-please/328994/11 "2005-11-02T15:04:12Z")
I guess my reading comprehension must be busted. What is the contradiction between these two sentences? (Not that I disagree with your post at all, it’s just bugging me that I can’t figure out how one contradicts the other.) > [@](#): > > But the great medical devastation hit no country harder than England in 1348-49 and because of the rich documentation surviving on fourteenth-century England it is in that country that we can best examine its personal and social impact in detail. > [@](#): > > Furthermore, there were at least three waves of the Black Death falling upon England over the century following 1350, nowhere near as severe as the cataclysm of the late 1340s, whose severity was unique in human history. But the succeeding outbreaks generated a high mortality nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norman-f-cantor-may-you-kindly-fuck-off-and-die-or-at-least-stop-writing-please/328994/12 "2005-11-02T15:10:16Z")
This is why we have that prohibition against wishing death on people! It turns out that the hamsters’ wheels are actually _prayer wheels_, and the server farm cabinet is made out of wood from that rocking horse in that short story, “The Rocking-Horse Winner”, and the cables are arranged into loopy supplicating runes each morning by the priests of Og. When you log onto the SDMB, you have to be careful what you… hey, hang on. Um, did someone order a goat? A _really really dumb_ goat? ---
**Author:** ![zweisamkeit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zweisamkeit/32/4360_2.png) [@zweisamkeit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zweisamkeit)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norman-f-cantor-may-you-kindly-fuck-off-and-die-or-at-least-stop-writing-please/328994/13 "2005-11-02T15:31:23Z")
> [@Beadalin](#): > > I guess my reading comprehension must be busted. What is the contradiction between these two sentences? > > (Not that I disagree with your post at all, it’s just bugging me that I can’t figure out how one contradicts the other.) That’s known as something where there’s a better word for what my brain meant, but don’t count on me to figure out what it is. 😉 (although in my defense, I’m not the one writing a book and touting myself as a premier historian, heh heh). I could’ve taken that part out and just said that putting those there served no purpose and weakened his argument in a way. Does that make more sense? ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norman-f-cantor-may-you-kindly-fuck-off-and-die-or-at-least-stop-writing-please/328994/14 "2005-11-02T15:34:36Z")
Wow, I had no idea he was dead. Some former medieval historian I am. A similar thing happened to me years ago. I was in office hours with the person who I believe _is_ the premier medieval historian of this generation. We were talking about another historian, John Murdoch. I found out later that he was her mentor. I made some off-hand reference to him being dead. “He’s dead? It must have been awfully sudden. I gave a paper with him at a conference last month.” Oops. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norman-f-cantor-may-you-kindly-fuck-off-and-die-or-at-least-stop-writing-please/328994/15 "2005-11-02T15:38:38Z")
I have no idea whether the book you’re talking about is any good, but I know that at least one book by Cantor is halfway decent. I’ve read _Inventing the Middle Ages_ and it’s a pretty good book about the most important medievalists (i.e., historians of and literary experts on the Middle Ages) during the twentieth century. It had some mistakes in it, but it was an excellent introduction to the academic study of the Middle Ages in the past century. It’s hard for me to tell, but my impression is that Cantor wasn’t remotely an important scholar, in the sense of writing anything that advanced the field with major research. He understood the field well enough to write a general survey and he personally knew many important medievalists. He was sometimes weak on the details, apparently because he wasn’t willing to spend the time on research that he should have. ---
**Author:** ![Uvula\_Donor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e19adc/32.png) [@Uvula\_Donor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uvula_Donor)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norman-f-cantor-may-you-kindly-fuck-off-and-die-or-at-least-stop-writing-please/328994/16 "2005-11-02T15:51:16Z")
> [@zweisamkeit](#): > > Norman F Cantor’s “In the Wake of the Plague: the Black Death and the World It Made” has a dreadful 2 star rating after 143 people reviewed it. Wow. That’s at least two stars more than that piece of shit deserves. (I bought it about 2 years ago, lured by the interesting title.) ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norman-f-cantor-may-you-kindly-fuck-off-and-die-or-at-least-stop-writing-please/328994/17 "2005-11-02T15:54:43Z")
I’ve got _Inventing the Middle Ages_ and _A history of the Jews_. I’ve heard they’re both pretty good but I haven’t gotten around to reading them yet. Anybody have an opinion on them? ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norman-f-cantor-may-you-kindly-fuck-off-and-die-or-at-least-stop-writing-please/328994/18 "2005-11-02T16:12:08Z")
I also bought that book, lured by the title and potentially interesting subject matter. It is a terrible, terrible book. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norman-f-cantor-may-you-kindly-fuck-off-and-die-or-at-least-stop-writing-please/328994/19 "2005-11-02T16:37:46Z")
> [@Wendell Wagner](#): > > It’s hard for me to tell, but my impression is that Cantor wasn’t remotely an important scholar, in the sense of writing anything that advanced the field with major research. He understood the field well enough to write a general survey and he personally knew many important medievalists. He was sometimes weak on the details, apparently because he wasn’t willing to spend the time on research that he should have. Nailed it in one. To be fair, Cantor also clung to conservative historiography, contrary to the rest of the field. According to some folks who knew him well, he thought he was ostracized for his conservative methdological and political beliefs. In reality, people just didn’t think he did very interesting work nor was a very pleasant person to be around. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norman-f-cantor-may-you-kindly-fuck-off-and-die-or-at-least-stop-writing-please/328994/20 "2005-11-02T16:41:10Z")
“This is not a book to be set aside lightly, but hurled with great force.” - Dorothy Parker [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norman-f-cantor-may-you-kindly-fuck-off-and-die-or-at-least-stop-writing-please/328994.md?page=2)