# Norman F. Cantor, may you kindly fuck off and die, or at least stop writing, please? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 1, 2005, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norman-f-cantor-may-you-kindly-fuck-off-and-die-or-at-least-stop-writing-please/328994 "2005-11-01T23:20:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![scule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@scule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scule)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norman-f-cantor-may-you-kindly-fuck-off-and-die-or-at-least-stop-writing-please/328994/21 "2005-11-02T16:43:11Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > To be fair, Cantor also clung to conservative historiography, contrary to the rest of the field. According to some folks who knew him well, he thought he was ostracized for his conservative methdological and political beliefs. In reality, people just didn’t think he did very interesting work nor was a very pleasant person to be around I think I bought a book on Antiquity by him, but now I’m worried that it won’t be any good. I love history, particularly ancient history and medieval history, but what would you recommend for someone who gets their books from a place like Borders or Barnes & Noble (up here it’s Chapters, which is a great store in my opinion)? I’m no expert on who the premier names in the field are, so I can often only go on, literarly, judging the book by its cover. Any tips? ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norman-f-cantor-may-you-kindly-fuck-off-and-die-or-at-least-stop-writing-please/328994/22 "2005-11-02T16:52:40Z")
> [@scule](#): > > I think I bought a book on Antiquity by him, but now I’m worried that it won’t be any good. I love history, particularly ancient history and medieval history, but what would you recommend for someone who gets their books from a place like Borders or Barnes & Noble (up here it’s Chapters, which is a great store in my opinion)? I’m no expert on who the premier names in the field are, so I can often only go on, literarly, judging the book by its cover. Any tips? Don’t sweat it. It might be pretty enjoyable. If you want a _really_ well-written and accessible book on late antiquity, check out **The World of Late Antiquity** by Peter Brown. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norman-f-cantor-may-you-kindly-fuck-off-and-die-or-at-least-stop-writing-please/328994/23 "2005-11-02T17:01:59Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Don’t sweat it. It might be pretty enjoyable. If you want a _really_ well-written and accessible book on late antiquity, check out **The World of Late Antiquity** by Peter Brown. What’s it about? ---
**Author:** ![Ponder\_Stibbons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponder_stibbons/32/343_2.png) [@Ponder\_Stibbons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponder_Stibbons)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norman-f-cantor-may-you-kindly-fuck-off-and-die-or-at-least-stop-writing-please/328994/24 "2005-11-02T17:07:38Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > What’s it about? [It](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393958035/002-6649553-6431264?v=glance&n=283155&n=507846&s=books&v=glance)’s about 20 bucks. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norman-f-cantor-may-you-kindly-fuck-off-and-die-or-at-least-stop-writing-please/328994/25 "2005-11-02T17:10:49Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > What’s it about? About 500 pages. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norman-f-cantor-may-you-kindly-fuck-off-and-die-or-at-least-stop-writing-please/328994/26 "2005-11-02T17:22:40Z")
My fee for teeing up straight lines is $1.25 per. Please remit to the Mother’s March Against Cognitive Dissonance. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norman-f-cantor-may-you-kindly-fuck-off-and-die-or-at-least-stop-writing-please/328994/27 "2005-11-02T17:24:01Z")
If you want the 148 page version, try [The Making of Late Antiquity](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0674543211/qid=1130952137/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-4355182-1070442?v=glance&s=books). The chapters are individual lectures Brown gave. Also a wonderful place to begin studying an awesome period. ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norman-f-cantor-may-you-kindly-fuck-off-and-die-or-at-least-stop-writing-please/328994/28 "2005-11-02T17:48:11Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > That’s _Differently Abled Goat_, Missy. Get with the now–that’s a multipli-handi-capable goat! ---
**Author:** ![lno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a8b319/32.png) [@lno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lno)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norman-f-cantor-may-you-kindly-fuck-off-and-die-or-at-least-stop-writing-please/328994/29 "2005-11-02T17:58:39Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > A similar thing happened to me years ago. I was in office hours with the person who I believe _is_ the premier medieval historian of this generation. We were talking about another historian, John Murdoch. I found out later that he was her mentor. Bynum? ---
**Author:** ![LilyoftheValley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/54ee81/32.png) [@LilyoftheValley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilyoftheValley)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norman-f-cantor-may-you-kindly-fuck-off-and-die-or-at-least-stop-writing-please/328994/30 "2005-11-02T18:26:09Z")
> [@zweisamkeit](#): > > And to think that I wavered between this and [a nice big book of Icelandic sagas](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0141000031/qid=1130886900/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-9902151-9021734?v=glance&s=books). Will it make you feel any better to know that I just followed that link and I now have one more Christmas gift crossed off my list? Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norman-f-cantor-may-you-kindly-fuck-off-and-die-or-at-least-stop-writing-please/328994/31 "2005-11-02T19:50:08Z")
> [@lno](#): > > Bynum? But of course. The look she gave me when I told her quite confidently that her mentor was dead was priceless. ---
**Author:** ![scule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@scule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scule)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norman-f-cantor-may-you-kindly-fuck-off-and-die-or-at-least-stop-writing-please/328994/32 "2005-11-02T20:49:17Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Don’t sweat it. It might be pretty enjoyable. If you want a _really_ well-written and accessible book on late antiquity, check out **The World of Late Antiquity** by Peter Brown. Thanks, I appreciate the recommendation, but what I’m more wondering is how does someone get to know who to read? For example, I thought the Cantor book looked good, as did others by him, because of the recommendations on the cover (yes, I know, of course they’ll be glowing, I’m more referring to the credentials listed). But I could have no way of knowing that this Peter Brown would be the better choice. I’ve read a book by Karen Armstrong on the Crusades and modern times, which was excellent, but is there something better? I’ve read a book by Bernard Lewis on the history of the Middle East, which was also excellent, but now I’m worried he may not have been good enough. There are others, like Europe by Norman Davies, which are in the queue. Where can I find out if these are the best people to read? Any ideas? ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norman-f-cantor-may-you-kindly-fuck-off-and-die-or-at-least-stop-writing-please/328994/33 "2005-11-02T21:24:36Z")
> [@scule](#): > > Thanks, I appreciate the recommendation, but what I’m more wondering is how does someone get to know who to read? For example, I thought the Cantor book looked good, as did others by him, because of the recommendations on the cover (yes, I know, of course they’ll be glowing, I’m more referring to the credentials listed). But I could have no way of knowing that this Peter Brown would be the better choice. > > I’ve read a book by Karen Armstrong on the Crusades and modern times, which was excellent, but is there something better? I’ve read a book by Bernard Lewis on the history of the Middle East, which was also excellent, but now I’m worried he may not have been good enough. There are others, like Europe by Norman Davies, which are in the queue. Where can I find out if these are the best people to read? Any ideas? Tough question. FWIW, you are spot on with Karen Armstrong and Bernard Lewis. I assume you are talking about Armstrong’s _Holy War_, which is an outstanding book. I am a very big admirer of her work, and had the opportunity to cross paths with her about two years ago. Same for Lewis. Though he takes some flack for his unflinching critique of modern Islamic culture, he is exceptionally erudite and really knows what he is talking about. In general, it is not easy to tell the good from the bad without some background in the subject. I’ve read a bunch of crappy books without knowing better in fields that I knew nothing about. I think I’ve read half a dozen of Cantor’s books, and that is time I will never geet back. But the digger you deep and the more you try to track references and footnotes, the greater the likelihood that you will stumble onto something good. It also helps to know people who know something about these fields and who are willing to give you suggestions. If you are feeling really motivated, google. You can find grad school reading lists, curricula, and syllabi all over the internet. If you want to learn more about, say, medieval history, see what the kids who take Intro to Medieval History are reading. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2005, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norman-f-cantor-may-you-kindly-fuck-off-and-die-or-at-least-stop-writing-please/328994/34 "2005-11-03T01:22:48Z")
> [@](#): > > In the England of 1500 children were singing a rhyme and playing a game called “Ring Around the Rosies.” When I grew up in Canada in the 1940s children holding hands in a circle still moved around and sang: I don’t know why, but being self referential in a history book is just a major pet peeve of mine. It’s fine when it’s a Vietnam correspondent or William Shirer or some such who in a book of history mentions in the first person _something primary that they witnessed_, but the above example (even if it were accurate) is of the kind that drives me nuts. Stephen Ambrose was one of the worst offenders (what the hell does your family’s camping trip have to do with Custer? If you learned an interesting anecdote about Custer on the camping trip then cite and include it, but I’m reading this book for info on him) or Richard Marius who goes into a two page discussion of a hippie commune he witnessed while in his biography of Martin Luther- NO! NYET! NEIN! I have no problem with memoirs, I like them in fact, but if it’s in history then your job is to talk about the subject and be as unobtrusive as a good waiter. You could just as easily say “Ring Around the Rosies is still a nursery rhyme” rather than “when I was a boy riding a pony to school yadda yadda”. Sorry, rant out. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2005, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norman-f-cantor-may-you-kindly-fuck-off-and-die-or-at-least-stop-writing-please/328994/35 "2005-11-03T01:30:15Z")
See, this is why I check out books at the library first. Once an author has impressed me, I will buy their books, but the library copy is the first one I read. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2005, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norman-f-cantor-may-you-kindly-fuck-off-and-die-or-at-least-stop-writing-please/328994/36 "2005-11-03T01:31:43Z")
> [@scule](#): > > I’ve read a book by Karen Armstrong on the Crusades and modern times, which was excellent, but is there something better? I’ve read a book by Bernard Lewis on the history of the Middle East, which was also excellent, but now I’m worried he may not have been good enough. There are others, like Europe by Norman Davies, which are in the queue. Where can I find out if these are the best people to read? Any ideas? You might want to also check out Albert Hourani’s “History of the Arab Peoples”. It’s not perfect…it’s biased, but good. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norman-f-cantor-may-you-kindly-fuck-off-and-die-or-at-least-stop-writing-please/328994.md?page=1)