# North Carolina's bathroom law **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 22, 2016, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-carolinas-bathroom-law/775336 "2016-12-22T02:34:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-carolinas-bathroom-law/775336/41 "2016-12-23T02:25:41Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > I’ve argued from the day this bill was first discussed that it would likely lead to people being improperly denied use of the “correct” bathroom. Suppose that you are a genetic “female”, but you have undergone transition to being “male.” You would, by preference, use the men’s room, and no one would blink because you’ll dress and look like a guy. But NC would force you to use the women’s bathroom. So you’d be a “guy” walking into a women’s room. Guess how THAT one goes down? :dubious: I know from direct personal experience how it goes down: much greater discomfort for BOTH the cisgender and transgender persons. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-carolinas-bathroom-law/775336/42 "2016-12-23T02:27:27Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Don’t some states reissue a birth certificate after transition so the birth certificate now has the current gender listed? As of right now, 48 states and DC have that capability. However, the process for getting it done is not automatic, and requires varying levels of documentation, transition, fees, legal assistance, and court actions. In some states it is very difficult to do, in others not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-carolinas-bathroom-law/775336/43 "2016-12-23T02:49:49Z")
OK, once I saw the strawman of “the transgender girl with erect penis running around the girl’s showers” trotted out, I debated whether to even post any more. For fuck’s sake. Just because there are no explicit penalties doesn’t mean that the law is not incredibly punitive. Being arrested and hauled away in handcuffs, booked, fingerprinted and processed, put into a holding cell until arraignment, etc., etc., are not trivial events. A malicious prosecutor could drag you into and out of court enough times to easily bankrupt many folks, who have limited or no savings. That being said, I have to work in North Carolina from time to time. I ignore their law when I’m there, and will never follow it. While gathering news for my show I see that the rabidly transphobic Lt. Gov. Patrick of Texas plans on introducing a bathroom ban in that state on January 10, but one which does NOT affect transgender men - ONLY transgender women. Why? As the man himself said, and I quote, “men can defend themselves.” I almost wonder if the one-sidedness of the bill would doom it Constitutionally right from the start, and that’s what they’re planning on? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-carolinas-bathroom-law/775336/44 "2016-12-23T13:57:07Z")
> [@snoe](#): > > I think you mean a teenage BOY in a girl’s locker room; Hey it wasn’t MY scenario. Maybe you should read it again. The teenage girl was uncomfortable with a person who had a penis being in the girls locker room. It just so happens that the person was a transgender woman. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-carolinas-bathroom-law/775336/45 "2016-12-23T14:24:59Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Hey it wasn’t MY scenario. Maybe you should read it again. The teenage girl was uncomfortable with a person who had a penis being in the girls locker room. It just so happens that the person was a transgender woman. I, as a straight man, would be (and have been) very uncomfortable being in a restroom with a person with an erect penis. What about my rights? The problem isn’t trans people. The problem is anyone who goes around in a semipublic space with a boner. Whether they’re male or female is irrelevant: that’s shitty behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Calico\_Jack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calico_jack/32/7320_2.png) [@Calico\_Jack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Calico_Jack)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-carolinas-bathroom-law/775336/46 "2016-12-23T14:27:31Z")
Honestly there’s an easy soluton to this. If a person can provide proof from a licensed medical professional that they were diagnosed with gender identity disorder, then I could tolerate letting them into the opposite bathroom. If no proof at all of a diagnosis is required, and all they have to do is say they “feel” like a woman or a man, then they shouldn’t be given that privilege. What next, let a convicted serial rapist transfer to a women’s prison because he just decides one day he “feels” like a woman? Rubbish. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-carolinas-bathroom-law/775336/47 "2016-12-23T14:30:30Z")
There’s an even easier solution. Get the fuck over it. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-carolinas-bathroom-law/775336/48 "2016-12-23T14:45:52Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The problem is anyone who goes around in a semipublic space with a boner. Whether they’re male or female is irrelevant: that’s shitty behavior. Really? It’s shitty behavior to be afflicted by an uncontrollable physiological response to stimuli? ---
**Author:** ![Calico\_Jack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calico_jack/32/7320_2.png) [@Calico\_Jack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Calico_Jack)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-carolinas-bathroom-law/775336/49 "2016-12-23T14:46:53Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > There’s an even easier solution. Get the fuck over it. Nah I think I’ll continue to concern myself with it. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-carolinas-bathroom-law/775336/50 "2016-12-23T14:47:56Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I’m pretty sure the prevalent answer around here is a teenage girl who doesn’t want to shower with somebody who has an erect penis should just \*\*get over it \*\*in the spirit of acceptance or else she is a bigot. > [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > There’s an even easier solution. Get the fuck over it. See? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-carolinas-bathroom-law/775336/51 "2016-12-23T14:49:34Z")
You are not doing a very good job of convincing me your concern is reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-carolinas-bathroom-law/775336/52 "2016-12-23T14:49:59Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Really? It’s shitty behavior to be afflicted by an uncontrollable physiological response to stimuli? No. “Goes around” is a key phrase. The proper response, if you get an erection in a semipublic space with nonsexual nudity, is to dress, to wrap a towel around your waist, or otherwise to cover up. This is true regardless of the genders of those around you. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-carolinas-bathroom-law/775336/53 "2016-12-23T14:53:08Z")
> [@Calico\_Jack](#): > > What next, let a convicted serial rapist transfer to a women’s prison because he just decides one day he “feels” like a woman? Rubbish. > [@](#): > > Rubbish. Oh, sorry, I guess you already knew that. ---
**Author:** ![Calico\_Jack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calico_jack/32/7320_2.png) [@Calico\_Jack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Calico_Jack)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-carolinas-bathroom-law/775336/54 "2016-12-23T15:02:39Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Rubbish. > Oh, sorry, I guess you already knew that. Why shouldn’t he? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-carolinas-bathroom-law/775336/55 "2016-12-23T15:13:23Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > No. “Goes around” is a key phrase. The proper response, if you get an erection in a semipublic space with nonsexual nudity, is to dress, to wrap a towel around your waist, or otherwise to cover up. This is true regardless of the genders of those around you. Are you sure? I thought the proper response was to grab it, shake it around at people while loudly exclaiming “Hey, check THIS out!” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-carolinas-bathroom-law/775336/56 "2016-12-23T15:14:00Z")
> [@Calico\_Jack](#): > > Why shouldn’t he? Do you realize that prisoners must jump through a lot more hoops in order to exercise rights than do folks on the outside? If you don’t realize that, now you do, and your question is answered, easy! If you already realize that, I’m afraid your question is incoherent. There are, of course, other problems, including: -“One day” -The implication that a serial rapist presents no danger to male inmates -The implication that prison guards can’t or shouldn’t enact safety measure to protect inmates (male or female) from serial rapists. > [@Slash1972](#): > > Are you sure? I thought the proper response was to grab it, shake it around at people while loudly exclaiming “Hey, check THIS out!” Ah. Now I understand why this policy issue is so confusing to you. Yes, I’m sure. Glad to clear this whole thing up for you! ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-carolinas-bathroom-law/775336/57 "2016-12-23T15:31:12Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Ah. Now I understand why this policy issue is so confusing to you. > > Yes, I’m sure. > > Glad to clear this whole thing up for you! Dammit, there go my Christmas plans!!! ---
**Author:** ![ZonexandScout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zonexandscout/32/544_2.png) [@ZonexandScout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZonexandScout)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-carolinas-bathroom-law/775336/58 "2016-12-23T16:25:11Z")
(Disclosure: Some parts of the Charlotte ordinance have been repealed since this thread started, so much of what has been argued is now moot. However, I’m going to comment as if the ordinance still stands as originally passed.) A couple observations based on recent posts: 1. It is probably not fair to make statements about how this will affect only legitimately trans males and trans females. The ordinance is written to protect any individual against discrimination due to **“gender identity”** or **“gender preference”**. This is a fairly low bar. Any person who expresses a simple “preference” for a gender is entitled to be treated as if he/she is a cis member of that gender. There are no other tests or requirements. 2. I think that people may be giving too much credit to groups like, say, teen boys. (You only need to browse the daily news for multiple stories about the lack of judgment exhibited by many teens, regardless of gender.) Given a high school class of 200 teen boys, I can guarantee that at least a couple dozen would be asking their counselors what they need to do to be assigned to the girls’ bathrooms, locker rooms, and showers. After all, little boys are made of snips and snails and titillation. 3. Most parents of teen girls already think of their daughter’s male friends as being like giant penises marching through the house. They tend to be quite protective of their children’s privacy and modesty. Whether or not their children are physically safe in the school locker room is important, but so is the idea that the children are not being regularly exposed to naked cis bodies of the opposite gender while they themselves are nude or partially nude. There is absolutely no question in my mind that this is sufficient reason for those parents to withdraw their children in favor of a private school or alternate arrangement. In my experience, a system only works until people learn to game it. The Charlotte ordinance simply invites itself to be gamed. The sad thing is that this is what is preventing genuine, practical reform to achieve the necessary goals of nondiscrimination against trans people. The Charlotte ordinance and NC’s HB2 law are both badly written and should both be repealed in favor of a real legislative attempt to protect the safety, dignity and respect of cis and trans alike. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-carolinas-bathroom-law/775336/59 "2016-12-23T16:45:27Z")
> [@Calico\_Jack](#): > > Honestly there’s an easy soluton to this. If a person can provide proof from a licensed medical professional that they were diagnosed with gender identity disorder, then I could tolerate letting them into the opposite bathroom. > > If no proof at all of a diagnosis is required, and all they have to do is say they “feel” like a woman or a man, then they shouldn’t be given that privilege. > > What next, let a convicted serial rapist transfer to a women’s prison because he just decides one day he “feels” like a woman? Rubbish. How often have laws like the ordinance in Charlotte led to any kind of sexual abuse, or even pervs sneaking into the restroom under the cover of pretending to be transgender? ---
**Author:** ![Calico\_Jack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calico_jack/32/7320_2.png) [@Calico\_Jack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Calico_Jack)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-carolinas-bathroom-law/775336/60 "2016-12-23T16:51:36Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > How often have laws like the ordinance in Charlotte led to any kind of sexual abuse, or even pervs sneaking into the restroom under the cover of pretending to be transgender? Just to name a few: [http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/may/14/man-who-choked-girl-in-womens-restroom-stokes-alar/](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/may/14/man-who-choked-girl-in-womens-restroom-stokes-alar/) [http://www.dailywire.com/news/5190/5-times-transgender-men-abused-women-and-children-amanda-prestigiacomo](http://www.dailywire.com/news/5190/5-times-transgender-men-abused-women-and-children-amanda-prestigiacomo) Not to mention this: > **[SURPRISE. Convicted Sex Offender Was Behind Charlotte, NC's Boys-In-the-Girls...](https://redstate.com/streiff/2016/03/28/surprise-convicted-sex-offender-behind-charlotte-ncs-boys-girls-bathroom-law-n57865)** > >   [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-carolinas-bathroom-law/775336.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-carolinas-bathroom-law/775336.md?page=4)