North Carolina's bathroom law

Great Debates
61

Regardless of whether it leads to sexual abuse, the idea of having opposite sex (cis) peers in the same showers and locker rooms is likely to be unacceptable to many parents. This is the “privacy and dignity” part of “privacy, dignity, and safety.”

I’m a liberal in NC with many liberal and conservative friends. Still, I don’t believe that I could find a SINGLE parent who would be OK with the scenarios I’ve previously described. Like it or not, the locker room and shower facilities at the thousands of NC schools provide virtually no privacy for individual students.

In fact, I could think of few scenarios more dangerous to a trans male than being forced to use the male shower rooms at most junior and senior high schools. Gaining access to male bathrooms as a trans male pretty much entails using the male locker rooms and showers as well. And there aren’t many private shower stalls for male students.

62

I don’t completely disagree, but the Charlotte ordinance specifically states “gender preference” or “gender identity.” There are no further requirements or definitions. Seems like a cis male could basically say, “I sincerely prefer to be female,” and slide right in.

One thing I really want to avoid is some sort of State or Federally-issued gender ID card. There’s a little too much Holocaust in that for my comfort.

63

I’ve got a state-issued ID that includes my gender on it. It’s called a “Driver’s License.”

64

Yes, but that’s based on your birth certificate here in NC. The birth certificate can be changed following reassignment surgery, but the Charlotte ordinance recognizes “gender preference.” Hard to change your DL here due to “preference.”

65

If we’re putting said serial rapist in a general population prison with women, I’m not afraid for the women.

66

Let’s examine this evidence carefully.

A cis man enters a women’s restroom in violation of the law and commits felony assault inside. He did so despite the fact that he wasn’t allowed in there. IOW, this has nothing to do with whether the laws should be changed. It shows that bad guys who are going to break assault laws are not going to be hindered by laws that oppress trans people.

This has five cases:

  1. A dude goes into a women’s restroom and begins to change. There is no sign that this guy made the slightest attempt to pretend to be transgender; it looks like he was trolling for attention. It may indicate that staff need better training, such that someone engaging in this sort of blatant trolling behavior can be told to knock it off.
  2. A sexual predator commits many crimes, some of which he commits by posing as trans. This actually looks like the kind of case for which evidence is sought. The linked article also mentions how he sexually harrassed fellow male inmates during his incarceration. The question, I suppose, is whether it’s worth oppressing folks who are actually trans in order to ensure that people like this asshole only sexually harrass men.
  3. and 4) Cis men dressing in drag, pretending to be cis women, in order to commit assault. They did so despite the absence of laws protecting trans women; there’s no indication that their cases are relevant to discussion of such laws. Obviously they should be prosecuted for their crimes.
  4. References gender-neutral restrooms, something tangential to what’s being discussed. Obviously the men in question should be prosecuted for their crimes. There’s no indication that they would have been willing to pretend to be transwomen in order to commit these crimes.

Since that’s off-topic, I agree, not to mention that.

In all these cases, you’ve found one that’s on-point. It offers a very weak argument against laws protecting transgender folk: in extraordinarily rare cases, it argues, a cis sexual predator will take advantage of these laws to assault women. That cis sexual predator will also assault women under other circumstances, and will assault men under other circumstances–but yes, very rarely a cis male sexual predator might take advantage of such laws.

The rest of your cases fall apart under light scrutiny.

67

Heh. That’s the other thing I’m wondering about with the slightly-Penthouse-Forum-vibe scenario wherein a cis dude waltzes into a high school girl’s changing room with his boner out, smirking and claiming to be a girl.

Have you MET high school girls? Do you really think that in a scenario with a bunch of girls and one asshole cis dude, the girls are going to shrink into the corner?

Not only are people not giving teenage boys enough credit, they’re not giving enough credit to teenage girls.

68

I’m confused why you are pre-judging a group of individuals for an action none of the individuals may have ever or plan to commit. Those who act inappropriately in the bathroom, etc. will be dealt with whether they are supposed to be there or not and inappropriate behavior can already happen in a bathroom whether they are supposed to be there or not. Why should a group of individuals be responsible for the Victorian perceptions of increased risk by other groups?

69

LHoD covered this quite well. The only one even remotely germane to this case involved Christopher Hambrook. So okay. There’s one. One case you can find where a man poses as a transwoman in order to assault women in a women-only area. Okay. There’s one. By comparison, your list had a couple of cases of men going into women’s restrooms to hunt for victims without posing as transwomen and without any laws in place that would allow them to enter those restrooms. What should we take from this? Because my takeaway definitely isn’t “We should be very careful before letting people who claim to be transgender into womens’ restrooms”. Especially not when transwomen face absurd rates of abuse when forced to use the men’s bathroom.

And I see little trouble with expecting school kids to provide evidence that they are, in fact, transgendered. It’s a slightly different situation from public toilets, if you ask me.

70

Ah, the old “your papers, please” argument.

My “proof” is in my life, as well as my many legal IDs that say I am female. Where’s your proof that you’re a male and should be allowed to use a men’s room? I hope you have a diagnosis that you do not suffer from gender identity disorder. Otherwise, you’re going to be using the ladies room with the rest of us.

See how that works?

Nice strawman, but it won’t dance.

71

I’ve also met people who claim they are gender neutral, while others say that on certain days they feel like a male while on others they feel like a female. How would that fit into this.

72

Of course they balked - they’re Trumpian Republicans, cut from the same lying cloth.

73

It doesn’t work that way.

It doesn’t work that way. Speaking as a person who has worked with untold trans teens and student counselors, student administrators, school district legal personnel, etc. over 4 years, from a professional standing, you have no idea what you’re talking about. In the KCMO school district of tens of thousands of students such a “fraud” to use the wrong bathroom or locker has not happened. Is it theoretically possible that some kid would go through the months of counseling, coming out to and being insistent, consistent, and persistent to their families, peers, etc. about a gender identity - only to say a year later “gotcha?” Sure it’s possible. And in the meantime, fuck all the other transgender students, because of a theoretical possibility. Right?

Parents already have that ability. And are doing it.

Demonstrate to me the system in place that is not gamed.

74

Seeing as this has been debunked in this thread already, save an outlier…can you link to where you’ve posted advocating that Catholic priests be barred from public restrooms? I can find hundreds and hundreds of instances of their being involved in child molestation, perhaps thousands. Yet when faced with this real danger, you and others are…strangely silent on that subject, instead doing quick Google searches and knee-jerking off theoretical strawmen or sample sizes of one or two.

Statistically speaking, who is the greater molestation danger to children: me, or a random Catholic priest? Two choices, pick one.

75

I’m respectful of your experience, but the Charlotte ordinances make no such provisions for counseling or evaluation. Whether you’re a student or a user of a public facility (e.g., campground or park shower rooms), you are required only to demonstrate a “gender preference.” Are you seriously suggesting that a visitor to a campground who wishes to use the gender-appropriate showers might need to undergo a formal counseling and evaluation session?

Parents have the ability to withdraw students currently and my great fear is that this will accelerate. Charter schools that draw public funds in order to achieve dubious “success” are not desirable.

Every system gets gamed. Look at handicapped parking, service animals, and minority-owned businesses.

None of your arguments address my basic premise: How do we deal with the parents who have concerns about the privacy and dignity of their children in single-sex environments like school/public locker rooms and showers? Telling them they are being foolish is not constructive or helpful.

76

No, you must have a gender identity which drives such a preference.

NO, what I’m saying is, the incidence of fakers is vanishingly low and more theatrical and theoretical than real. Not impossible, but rare. As opposed to the real damage which is done to transgender persons forced to use the wrong facilities.

And it depends upon what happens in the showers anyhow. Why aren’t more women worried about the 1.5% of women who are lesbian? Why aren’t men worried about gay males in their bathrooms? What is the person doing in the bathroom anyhow? I’ve been in women’s rooms for 5 years continuously and never once seen another woman topless nor exposed in any way. Most gyms have private showers (why would we want to look at other women’s hoo-ha’s anyhow?), and nudity in there is incidental. If someone came in and started gaping and leering and making comments and gestures, or whatever, there would be complaints, and they would be ejected and possibly arrested. The same would happen if one of the predatory lesbians I know (and some of my cisgender lesbian friends are as constantly horny as a 14-year old boy, and if you think they can’t be then you’ve never been around many lesbians) started making advances in a women’s shower. Punish behavior, maybe?

A public defender of Jackson County who used to be a good friend of mine, and who I interviewed on my radio show, put it this way at a conference we spoke at. I’m quoting her: “sex offenders don’t give a shit about bathroom laws. They don’t care if it’s legal, illegal, or whatever. They’re going to enter a bathroom and offend, commit assaults, regardless of the statutes. I should know because I defended dozens of them in court, and they bragged to me about it.”

We deal with them the same way we dealt with those who said they didn’t want to share bathrooms and showers with African Americans or Hispanics before the 1960’s: we tell them the greater good is for the majority to open its hearts and minds to a scared and oppressed minority. In time we realize that there’s no statistically significant danger and it becomes a non-issue.

77

I an neither a North Carolinian nor a closed minded conservative, but I can harbor a guess here. One can’t tell with their bare eyes what ones sexual preference is, but they can tell what ones sex is.

78

When I was growing up in the late eighties/early nineties, they were. They really were. When Clinton was putting “don’t ask, don’t tell” into effect, there was a lot of pushback against it, and at least some of it was over fear that gay men would look at straight men’s dingdongs.

They lost that fight. This is the new one they’re trying to fight.

79

…and that still is problematic. The number of times I’ve heard “at least I can tell if someone’s a tranny, but if they’re gay they’re like some sort of infiltrator!” or “it’s so SCARY that lesbians look just like you and me! Shouldn’t they have to wear like a special ring or something?” are many. Very many.

80

Una Persson has responded with many excellent arguments and facts, but I am not going to respond to them in a point-by-point manner because I think we’re at cross-purposes.

I have never stated that I believe that parents are concerned about their children being assaulted by, or in any danger whatsoever, from transgender individuals sharing locker rooms or showers. In fact, I pointed out that I’m concerned about the safety of transgender males sharing facilities with cisgender males, especially those of a young age. I have some idea of how teen-aged boys can act.

Many parents are uncomfortable simply with the idea that children could be visually exposed to opposite-sex genitalia on a regular basis. (I know this sounds corny in our age of internet porn, but it is a genuine concern nonetheless.) Their fears are increased when the facility is a public shower or locker room with a wide range of ages in the users.

Yes, many health clubs and private facilities have very nice locker rooms and showers with private stalls. But a significant number of junior high schools, high schools, athletic fieldhouses, water parks, gymnasia, and campgrounds do not. Furthermore, even private shower stalls don’t necessarily entail the absence of partial or complete nudity in the locker rooms and changing areas.

Opening facilities to all races was fairly simple when compared to the issue of transgender access. To stop racial discrimination, one only had to disregard skin color. Not easy to do for some people, but a simple and straightforward rule. The equivalent approach for transgender access would be to disregard cisgender and transgender completely, granting equal access for all facilities to all genders. I believe that we would have a tough time achieving this.

So, the question seems to be, “How do we best protect transgender persons?” Should we identify them and give them special tags, like handicapped parking hangers in our cars? Do we make a notation on their IDs or driver licenses? Do we just take their word for it if a transgender female is in the women’s locker room? I appreciate that transgender students are receiving counseling and guidance in schools and are identified as early as possible in order to assist them during a difficult time. But what about the 35-year-old transgender female who wants to use the showers at the campground?

As I’ve said all along, I don’t have a good solution and no good arguments to make to concerned parents. I am sympathetic to the father of a 10-year-old who wants to keep her/him shielded from the “inappropriate.” The Charlotte ordinance was flawed, and NC HB2 was over-reactionary. Both were bad and both need to be repealed. But how do we move forward?