# North Korea, an enigma **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 28, 2010, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-an-enigma/544784 "2010-06-28T14:18:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-an-enigma/544784/21 "2010-07-03T09:27:59Z")
**foolsguinea** : Are you serious? Oh, yes, those poor, misunderstood communists up north. Well, [here](http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/07/113_68654.html) is [what](http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/06/117_66344.html) they’ve [been up to](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROKS_Cheonan_sinking) lately. What possible effect could “Western bias” have on any of that? Why is this thread in GQ? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-an-enigma/544784/22 "2010-07-03T20:28:18Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > **foolsguinea** : Are you serious? Oh, yes, those poor, misunderstood communists up north. Well, [here](http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/07/113_68654.html) is [what](http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/06/117_66344.html) they’ve [been up to](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROKS_Cheonan_sinking) lately. What possible effect could “Western bias” have on any of that? > > Why is this thread in GQ? In every case, you’re relying on what South Korean authorities–_their enemies_–tell you. There is a propaganda filter by definition. How do you know the ship was sunk by a PDRK missile? The South told you. Why do you believe the South? Because you reflexively believe the South & distrust the North. PDRK denies it was them. Why should I believe ROK? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-an-enigma/544784/23 "2010-07-03T21:48:38Z")
Actually, I’m relying on the evidence. And, for the sinking of the ROKS Cheonan, that evidence was examined by a multi-national team. That’s not propoganda. I’m not reflexively believing anything and your pretense that I am is an insult. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-an-enigma/544784/24 "2010-07-03T23:59:58Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Why is this thread in GQ? This thread is in GQ because the author is essentially asking for citations - what do recognized authorities and specialists have to say about this? (I repeat my [recommendation](http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/jul/15/north-korea-crisis-faith/), btw - the article is a review of 3 books on the subject and is fairly lengthy.) > [@](#): > > Actually, I’m relying on the evidence. And, for the sinking of the ROKS Cheonan, that evidence was examined by a multi-national team. That’s not propoganda. I’m not reflexively believing anything and your pretense that I am is an insult. With respect Monty, his point was valid but methinks you did some fine ignorance fighting. I am seeing some propagandist stuff in this thread -grounded more on the gut than the head- (though FTR, I judge the Kim Family regime to be vile). ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2010, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-an-enigma/544784/25 "2010-07-04T03:18:29Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Also, remember that a lot of what we see of PDRK in the West is filtered through ROK &/or Western biases & interpretations. Nothing is stopping you from getting the DPRK’s version of things [straight from the horse’s mouth](http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm). It’s worth giving a read from time to time; it’s easy to forget what stilted Stalinistic propoganda sounds like, and that it’s the only news available in North Korea. For example, the news from today: > [@](#): > > Elimination of Traitors Called for > > Pyongyang, July 2 (KCNA) – The lesson drawn from the last Korean War which caused huge losses and disaster to the Korean nation is that the tragic disaster of the nation is unavoidable unless the stooges of the aggressors and war servants of foreign forces are eliminated from the nation. > > Rodong Sinmun Friday says this in a signed article. > The Syngman Rhee puppet clique, which took power taking the advantage of the U.S. imperialists’ moves for “separate election and separate government” in south Korea after the liberation of Korea, desperately tried to provoke a war, while rejecting the just and above-board proposal repeatedly raised by the DPRK to achieve national reunification by peaceful means, the article says, and goes on: > The Syngman Rhee puppet clique is, indeed, a group of despicable war servants of the U.S. imperialists and a group of traitors who can never be pardoned as it did not hesitate to push the fellow countrymen into the disaster of war for its own luxury. > There appeared in south Korea another group of traitors running amuck to do harm to fellow countrymen in collusion with the aggressors as traitor Syngman Rhee did in the present June 15 era of reunification. It is the Lee Myung Bak group. > The conservative group in south Korea are running wild to provoke another war in conspiracy with the U.S. imperialists, destroying peace and stability on the Korean Peninsula. > The war-like forces of the south Korean military have rounded off more adventurous and offensive war scenarios to invade the DPRK by “preempting an attack” on it, regarding it as the “principal enemy”. They are now putting spurs to the development of ultra-modern war equipment and the arms buildup. > Not content with this, they are actively participating in the U.S.-sponsored PSI and the Missile Defense system. > The Lee Myung Bak group is, indeed, a group of war servants of the U.S. imperialists who harass peace and stability on the peninsula and bellicose forces who can not live without war. > The reality urgently requires the Korean nation to immediately throw overboard the group of traitors so that it may not suffer from the same disaster as the last June 25 war. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-an-enigma/544784/26 "2010-07-06T19:46:42Z")
So the ROK can’t be slanting things because the PDRK is slanting things? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-an-enigma/544784/27 "2010-07-06T21:11:12Z")
Okay, I’ll bite. What evidence, actual evidence do you have that the ROK is “slanting” these incidents? By _evidence_, I do not mean, “Well it could be; after all, anything’s possible.” ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@Captain\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-an-enigma/544784/28 "2010-07-07T10:29:30Z")
How long is the United States supposed to stay in Korea? Until Kim Jong Il dies? Until his son dies (he’s about 25 now, so unless he dies young, that’s another at least 40 years guarding the fence.) South Korea has twice the population of the North. It is true that Seoul is less than 100 miles from the line, but Pyongyang is also 100 miles from the line and can be conquered. The North of course, does not want this. If I was the Northern government, I would wait for the United States to weaken itself so much economically that they will have no other choice but to leave. To Pusan guy, the South wants the Americans gone. They have demonstrations all the time against the American presence. The previous President of SK voiced that he wants the troops gone. If the United States left, NK would not have a “Boogeyman” to worry about. Shift this Korean problem to the Chinese. United States: "Hey China, we are going to leave. Goodbye, Zaijian, Annyong Kaesayo, Sayonara. Bye. \*\* North Korea is now YOUR PROBLEM\*\*. You are partially to blame for this shit, and you guys need to step up and solve it. By the way, those \*\*munchkins have nuclear bombs \*\*that can be easily pointed to Beijing and Shanghai just as much as Seoul. They don’t like you, however, they terrorize, repress and kill their own citizens (including babies) under your protection. Do you, the Chinese, want to lose South Korea as a trading partner in a war? Is this hideous, tyrannical government (and next to the Chinese govt., it really is.) really worth WWIII? Or is there any possible way that your government can somehow topple these assholes and in its place a “Communist-Lite government” like in China and start feeding, clothing, housing these poor people and get them back on their feet. Let the North and the South talk. Just talk. No Americans, No Chinese, No Russians, no U.N. I think if there was any possible way to get to the son of Kimmy Il and tell him, "Hey kid, we will give you and your family $5 billion (with a b) Euros, dollars or NK banknotes to leave the country and go anywhere you want. Europe, America, China, wherever. NK wont ever invade or do shit, because invasion will mean the end of their government and they know it. The military-industrial complex of the United States want you to think they will as to keep the war machine and the rapidly deflated dollar moving along. I have read a lot about North Korea and I really, really feel for those sorry people. Kim Jong Il deserves no better fate than Saddam Hussain. Kim should be hung by his ankles and beaten with a stick by all 22 million of his subjects and then have his balls cut off, stuffed in his mouth and let him bleed to death. The ruling class and their entire family (minus babies and innocents) should spend time in their concentration camps. The people of NK are hostages in this. I just feel that continuing the political status quo is not helping and is actually having the opposite effect. Is Iraq a better place now? Afghanistan? Vietnam would be the same as North Korea/South Korea if the same situation existed, a paranoid militeristic repressive North supported by China and a prosperous South Vietnam. I have been to Vietnam. America and the French losing to them was the best thing that could of happened to them. Not only that, the Vietnamese later liberated Cambodia against the murderous Khmer Rouge in 1975, something that would of never happened if the United States did not leave. We will never learn the lesson that invading and manipulating a smaller nation to do your will, even benevolently never works. The USA hasn’t been benevolent in the Middle East anyway, how many children, women, elderly and innocents have been slaughtered in the “Operation Just Cause” or “Operation Freedom” or any of that bullshit. We never learn. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-an-enigma/544784/29 "2010-07-07T12:26:09Z")
There is a myth that talking can solve every problem. It can’t. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-an-enigma/544784/30 "2010-07-07T15:41:53Z")
> [@Captain\_Midnight](#): > > To Pusan guy, the South wants the Americans gone. They have demonstrations all the time against the American presence. The previous President of SK voiced that he wants the troops gone. Wrong. Certain people in the south want Americans gone. Their government, especially the ROK military, want Americans here. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-an-enigma/544784/31 "2010-07-07T16:08:20Z")
> [@Captain\_Midnight](#): > > Let the North and the South talk. Just talk. No Americans, No Chinese, No Russians, no U.N. I don’t think you understand that the Sunshine Policy which began in 2000 was not generally found to be successful, as North Korea continued to launch missiles and build nuclear weapons. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-an-enigma/544784/32 "2010-07-08T04:03:09Z")
Nixon even considered nuking NK: [News, Politics, Sports, Mail & Latest Headlines - AOL.com](http://www.aolnews.com/world/article/declassified-papers-on-north-korea-show-us-considered-nuclear-option/19545161) ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-an-enigma/544784/33 "2010-07-11T09:49:48Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > So the ROK can’t be slanting things because the PDRK is slanting things? [What’s the UN’s slant](http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2010/sc9975.doc.htm)? Maybe this is it: > [@](#): > > The Security Council today condemned the attack which led to the sinking of the Republic of Korea naval ship Cheonan off the coast of the Korean peninsula on 26 March, with the loss of 46 lives. > > In a statement read out by U Joy Ogwu (Nigeria), its President for the month of July, the 15-member body also expressed deep concern in view of the findings of the Joint Civilian-Military Investigation Group led by the Republic of Korea, with participants from five other nations, which concluded that the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea had been responsible for the sinking. At the same time, the Council took note of the response from the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea that it had nothing to do with the incident. > > Welcoming the restraint shown by the Republic of Korea, the Council underscored the importance of preventing further such attacks or other hostilities against that country or in the region, calling for full adherence to the Korean Armistice Agreement and encouraging the settlement of outstanding issues through a resumption of dialogue. The full text of the statement is at that link. There is also video on the UN’s home page. And the US and South Korea’s slant? [See here](http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/07/120_69192.html): > [@](#): > > North Korea is ready to rejoin the six-party negotiations on its denuclearization, its state-run media said Saturday. > > But a senior government official in Seoul stressed Sunday that the talks will remain stalled until Pyongyang apologizes for the March sinking of a South Korean warship, and proves its true willingness to denuclearize the Korean Peninsula. & > [@](#): > > Washington, meanwhile, refrained from responding to the North’s offer to resume the talks. > > “At this point, we want to let North Korea absorb the fact that the international community has condemned the Cheonan incident,” State Department spokesman Mark Toner told reporters. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-an-enigma/544784/34 "2010-07-11T15:57:23Z")
They’re ready to resume six party talks. Yeah, sure. Just wait until about a week before such talks actually resume. They’ll come up with some kind of excuse not to participate. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-an-enigma/544784/35 "2010-07-13T15:13:53Z")
Quite so. North Korea proposed talks last week on the sinking of the ship. Today they canceled the talks that they proposed. [Link.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/12/AR2010071205484.html) Why, you’re just going to have to peel me up off the floor. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-an-enigma/544784/36 "2010-07-13T15:57:03Z")
> [@Captain\_Midnight](#): > > … > > Let the North and the South talk. Just talk. No Americans, No Chinese, No Russians, no U.N. I think if there was any possible way to get to the son of Kimmy Il and tell him, "Hey kid, we will give you and your family $5 billion (with a b) Euros, dollars or NK banknotes to leave the country and go anywhere you want. Europe, America, China, wherever. NK wont ever invade or do shit, because invasion will mean the end of their government and they know it. The military-industrial complex of the United States want you to think they will as to keep the war machine and the rapidly deflated dollar moving along. This is the problem - there is no absolute “dictator”, there is a system. Like the kings of old, he rules by accident and because nobody in the top levels trusts their peers to be any better; and once there. he makes sure that his top-level chiefs have no common cause to conspire against him. One hint that the king is going to take a buy-out and leave his barons/generals/bureau chiefs to be chopped up by the mob, and they would find a replacement very quickly. A replacement may or may not be a Gorbachev, he could be a Stalin replacing Lenin. ---
**Author:** ![Indian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c0e974/32.png) [@Indian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indian)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-an-enigma/544784/37 "2010-07-21T15:46:08Z")
\*North Korea is one of the most secretive states in the world. Its citizens cannot travel abroad and have little, if any, contact with those who visit their country. The few tourists who do make it are carefully herded to a handful of destinations and rarely get off the beaten track. Yet, thanks to satellite imagery and the internet, North Korea’s secretive world is gradually being unveiled. Here is a series of remarkable photographs showing aspects of North Korea’s hidden world that are rarely seen by outsiders, as well as some unusual views of more familiar sights. \* from [BBC.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8110093.stm) ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-an-enigma/544784/38 "2010-07-22T08:58:46Z")
> [@g1eagle](#): > > Oftentimes, it is bluster and bravado. I could understand if this was intended for the consumption of their own people, but I don’t understand why they don’t take a more rational and/or realistic course with what I will call the rest of the world. Long ago, I used to work in a library specialized in social issues, and nothing like a major library. A place that only people working in a related field and in the same general area would have heard of. On a regular basis, and without having never asked, we would get : 1)A North-Korean magazine, in French. Note that it wasn’t a crappy magazine. Good paper, nice cover, beautiful photos, etc… It was full of this typical propaganda you’re refering to. 2)The complete collection of Kim Il Sung speeches, in books (things like “speech in the fish factory of XXXX on May 17 1965”, so, I guess everything the great leader ever said in public), also in French. When I left the library, we already have had more than 30 tomes. We always wondered : 1)Why on earth they were sending us that 2)What they tried to achieve with such a blatant propaganda apparently intended for the consumption of the french public. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-an-enigma/544784.md?page=1)