# North Korea declares China an enemy, will this change anything **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 31, 2016, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-declares-china-an-enemy-will-this-change-anything/750790 "2016-03-31T23:41:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-declares-china-an-enemy-will-this-change-anything/750790/61 "2016-04-06T14:04:49Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > You could add kidnapping of Japanese civilians and terrorism to the list. That doesn’t change the fundamental fact that much of what NK has done over the past few decades is in response to the fact that it has no security guarantees. There is no difference between NK and Iran in this regard. The difference between NK and Iran, and Iraq, is that NK and Iran learned that they’d better develop atomic weapons to thwart US military power. And the ultimate difference is, NK and Iran’s regimes have survived, whereas Iraq’s fell. More rubbish. Absolutely nothing on the list of atrocities committed by North Korea has anything to do with its supposed lack of a security guarantee. After all, it already has a security guarantee; it just doesn’t want to play by the rules it agreed to already. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-declares-china-an-enemy-will-this-change-anything/750790/62 "2016-04-06T18:06:41Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > More rubbish. Absolutely nothing on the list of atrocities committed by North Korea has anything to do with its supposed lack of a security guarantee. After all, it already has a security guarantee; it just doesn’t want to play by the rules it agreed to already. Well, soon the US will have nuclear weapons and the conventional weapons needed to take on the massive might of North Korea! To this point in history, of course, there was nothing the US could do, unlike in Iraq. Like Iran, the clock is ticking down so they NEED nuclear weapons to continue to ensure their shining way of life, liberty and the pursuit of tree bark and grass as the Kim’s have granted. I can’t even imagine what could happen if North Korea or Iran doesn’t get nukes before the US is ready to strike. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-declares-china-an-enemy-will-this-change-anything/750790/63 "2016-04-06T18:28:13Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > More rubbish. Absolutely nothing on the list of atrocities committed by North Korea has anything to do with its supposed lack of a security guarantee. Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-declares-china-an-enemy-will-this-change-anything/750790/64 "2016-04-06T20:28:24Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > More rubbish. Absolutely nothing on the list of atrocities committed by North Korea has anything to do with its supposed lack of a security guarantee. After all, it already has a security guarantee; it just doesn’t want to play by the rules it agreed to already. Countries frequently break rules, especially when they believe that the dynamics change after the rules have been made. Or, having considered it further, they could simply decide that they made the wrong decision to agree to them in the first place. It doesn’t really matter. The fact of the matter is, Kim doesn’t stand to gain anything by going to war with his neighbors. But he (and his core of military/party leadership) stand a lot to lose if NK doesn’t have some way of making Kim’s potential ouster a painful one, regardless of whoever his adversaries may be. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-declares-china-an-enemy-will-this-change-anything/750790/65 "2016-04-06T20:35:12Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Countries frequently break rules, especially when they believe that the dynamics change after the rules have been made. Or, having considered it further, they could simply decide that they made the wrong decision to agree to them in the first place. It doesn’t really matter. The fact of the matter is, Kim doesn’t stand to gain anything by going to war with his neighbors. But he (and his core of military/party leadership) stand a lot to lose if NK doesn’t have some way of making Kim’s potential ouster a painful one, regardless of whoever his adversaries may be. Either this was written by a propagandist for the WP or you, like coremelt, have no idea of what you’re talking about. Look, whenever and however the current governmental regime falls in the DPRK, it will be painful for those who ran it. There’s no way that there won’t be an accounting for all the atrocities committed. KJE may not be the sharpest dictator on the planet; however, he certainly knows what will happen to him if he loses his country. “Going out with a bang” as you seem to think he would do will only make things worse for him and his. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-declares-china-an-enemy-will-this-change-anything/750790/66 "2016-04-06T20:55:31Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > You’re missing my point. If the US was to offer an unconditional peace treaty tomorrow to NK, then NK would accept. Kim wants to be left alone to run his private kingdom of death camps and Kim worship. He doesn’t want to rule unified Korea, he knows thats not realistic. > > Note I am very much not justifying anything NK or Kim is doing, I think his rule is abhorrent, but if he was offered a deal to leave him alone he’d probably accept, and I am by no means saying the west SHOULD offer him that deal I’m just trying to say that his offer of “peace” is sincere in that it means leaving him in peace to continue oppressing his own people. This is like the endless debate about Japan and the atomic bomb. If the US would have taken seriously the quasi-peace overtures funneled through the USSR for Japan to stop fighting and go back to the status quo ante then we wouldn’t have had to drop the atomic bombs on Japan! Yeah, that would probably work…for Japan. And Japan certainly was trying backdoor methods to get this point across, that at least some in the Japanese government were willing to have the US et al bend over backwards for that, to be sure. But they didn’t have any serious expectations that the US et al would actually go along, at least not until (in their minds) it became so bloody and costly that the US was willing to negotiate. In Kim’s case he can toss out such a proposal knowing full well that the US and South Korea won’t take it. He can look like he’s the reasonable one then (at least to his own people who don’t have a clue what’s actually going on) knowing full well it makes no difference. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-declares-china-an-enemy-will-this-change-anything/750790/67 "2016-04-06T21:21:05Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > You’re missing my point. If the US was to offer an unconditional peace treaty tomorrow to NK, then NK would accept. Kim wants to be left alone to run his private kingdom of death camps and Kim worship. He doesn’t want to rule unified Korea, he knows thats not realistic. > > Note I am very much not justifying anything NK or Kim is doing, I think his rule is abhorrent, but if he was offered a deal to leave him alone he’d probably accept, and I am by no means saying the west SHOULD offer him that deal I’m just trying to say that his offer of “peace” is sincere in that it means leaving him in peace to continue oppressing his own people. Serious question for you: Do you not realize that you’re contradicting yourself in this thread? ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-declares-china-an-enemy-will-this-change-anything/750790/68 "2016-04-07T00:40:46Z")
Jong il did it, and now Jong un continues the same ‘diplomacy’. Threaten. Allow the NK citizens to suffer. Wait for aid. Finally get aid. Steal most of it for the elite, and keep the army barely on it’s feet. Rinse and repeat. A million man army is still a threat but spells catastrophe without a support structure for it. Same with the ageing artillery. Though with thousands of guns so close to Seoul, they don’t even need to aim to cause calamity. I don’t think anyone really knows just how many of those artillery pieces are serviceable. I bet we know where 99% of them are though. I’m sure there are multiple plans on ways to destroy NK’s artillery emplacements. Fuel-Air Explosives come to mind. > [@wiki](#): > > The second charge then detonates the cloud, creating a massive blast wave. The blast wave destroys reinforced buildings and equipment and kills and injures people. The antipersonnel effect of the blast wave is more severe in foxholes, and in enclosed spaces such as caves, buildings, and bunkers. I won’t address NK’s Air Force or Navy. It’s a joke. Nukes are another chapter of the same book. Nukes are going to be the new threat that will replace the artillery. Rinse and repeat. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-declares-china-an-enemy-will-this-change-anything/750790/69 "2016-04-07T01:48:25Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Look, whenever and however the current governmental regime falls in the DPRK, it will be painful for those who ran it. Unless he is the guy who shoots Fat Ass Kim and liberates the North Koreans, who are joyfully fed by their friends in South Korea. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-declares-china-an-enemy-will-this-change-anything/750790/70 "2016-04-07T01:57:17Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > “Going out with a bang” as you seem to think he would do will only make things worse for him and his. Is there some reason he should care about that? He’ll die. His will die. What could make it worse? Why in the world do you think that Kim would be restrained by worries about what would happen after him? Such an attitude is not unprecedented. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-declares-china-an-enemy-will-this-change-anything/750790/71 "2016-04-07T02:35:14Z")
Ummm… What? Jong Un and his Father Jong Il are considered to be Gods in NK. They themselves may believe it. I’ve known people that believe their own lies. Gods don’t whimper and fade away. But. Jong Un could retain his God like adoration by listening to the international community and making some concessions so that NK does not suffer another famine. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-declares-china-an-enemy-will-this-change-anything/750790/72 "2016-04-07T02:43:02Z")
I think I misread your last sentence **Frank**. The double negative. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-declares-china-an-enemy-will-this-change-anything/750790/73 "2016-04-07T02:51:06Z")
It is kind of interesting that Jong un does not yet have a successor. A child. Though I suppose that they can always say that the next ‘Kim’ was shot out of a volcano. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-declares-china-an-enemy-will-this-change-anything/750790/74 "2016-04-07T02:53:25Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Though I suppose that they can always say that the next ‘Kim’ was shot out of a volcano. Descended from Heaven, his arms held by after life Kims. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-declares-china-an-enemy-will-this-change-anything/750790/75 "2016-04-07T03:00:35Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Either this was written by a propagandist for the WP or you, like coremelt, have no idea of what you’re talking about. > > Look, whenever and however the current governmental regime falls in the DPRK, it will be painful for those who ran it. There’s no way that there won’t be an accounting for all the atrocities committed. KJE may not be the sharpest dictator on the planet; however, he certainly knows what will happen to him if he loses his country. “Going out with a bang” as you seem to think he would do will only make things worse for him and his. I’m not sure what your point is, but you seem pretty confident of your take on North Korea. Maybe you should work for the Foreign Service. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-declares-china-an-enemy-will-this-change-anything/750790/76 "2016-04-07T04:51:41Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I’m not sure what your point is, but you seem pretty confident of your take on North Korea. Maybe you should work for the Foreign Service. Maybe the decade I spent living there, along with my involvement with South Korea over the last 39 years, have taught me a thing or two about that particular peninsula and what’s happening there. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-declares-china-an-enemy-will-this-change-anything/750790/77 "2016-04-07T11:49:24Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > I think I misread your last sentence **Frank**. The double negative. On rereading my post this morning, I’m not quite certain what I meant. 🙂 My point, I think, is that there have been (and are) people who just don’t care about what happens after they’re dead. There have been (and are) people who’d be perfectly happy to take the world with them. I hesitate to say it, but. . . Hitler, for one. I think that Kim is most likely one of these people, and that he is not concerned about what happens to his family or his nation after his demise. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-declares-china-an-enemy-will-this-change-anything/750790/78 "2016-04-07T13:29:31Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > You could add kidnapping of Japanese civilians and terrorism to the list. That doesn’t change the fundamental fact that much of what NK has done over the past few decades is in response to the fact that it has no security guarantees. The problem being that NK can’t get a security guarantee because it does stuff like you and **Monty** describe. “The beatings will continue until morale improves”. Likewise “we are going to keep attacking you until you guarantee that you won’t attack us”. That’s kind of crazy, which is much of the point - Kimmie wants to impress his own people and generals with how scared the West is of what his might can do, and impress the West with how crazy he is and what he might do. IYSWIM. Now he is just doing it with China. Regards, Shodan - ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-declares-china-an-enemy-will-this-change-anything/750790/79 "2016-04-07T14:11:04Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Descended from Heaven, his arms held by after life Kims. [Jon Lovitz]That’s the ticket![/JL] ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-declares-china-an-enemy-will-this-change-anything/750790/80 "2016-04-07T14:23:43Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > It is kind of interesting that Jong un does not yet have a successor. A child. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > [Here’s an article](http://nypost.com/2016/03/31/kim-jong-un-weighs-nearly-300-pounds/) I happened upon earlier today that claims he’s now up to almost 300 lbs. One hell of a long gestation period. The baby will probably weigh over a hundred pounds. That is to be expected in a family of gods. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-declares-china-an-enemy-will-this-change-anything/750790.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-declares-china-an-enemy-will-this-change-anything/750790.md?page=5)