# North Korea...how will it end? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 29, 2011, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-how-will-it-end/587232 "2011-06-29T04:51:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-how-will-it-end/587232/61 "2011-06-30T02:09:58Z")
Almost certainly, yes. As best I recall, the average North Korean child is three or four inches shorter than their South Korean counterpart — the North Korean elites probably wouldn’t be that badly malnourished. Of course, in America there’s some physical difference too, just in the opposite direction… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-how-will-it-end/587232/62 "2011-06-30T05:56:33Z")
You know, if Korea ever is unified, any thorough de-Communization of the North is going to be unthinkable. Some top NK leaders might be locked up for this or that, but, you know, everybody’s a Communist, everybody who runs things is a Party member, you had to join to get anywhere, you can’t put Southern carpetbaggers in **every** management or government position. Not only that, but the [Workers’ Party of Korea](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Workers%27_Party) or a successor organization is going to have to have some representation in parliament and, perhaps, have to be included in the government/cabinet. Even if most of its present leaders are locked up for this or that, the party almost certainly will survive in some form – doesn’t matter how discredited it is, millions of North Koreans will, offered a free choice, vote WPK for a while because anything else is inconceivable. That will change eventually, and other parties will gain footholds in the North and the Communist vote share will decline, but that could take anywhere from years to decades. ---
**Author:** ![Sablicious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@Sablicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sablicious)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-how-will-it-end/587232/63 "2011-06-30T08:02:42Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > For all you know, by 1230, North Korea could be one of the richest nations in the world. Okay. I’ve held off long enough… **TROLL!!** ---
**Author:** ![Sablicious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@Sablicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sablicious)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-how-will-it-end/587232/64 "2011-06-30T08:09:21Z")
The last thing the US needs is a unified Korea because, with the level of inculcated fanaticism apparent in the country, the only way that will come about is if this ‘unified Korea’ were Communist, almost certainly headed / infected by an ‘Ill’ _and_ (most importantly) bent on violent reparation for what they perceive the US did to them in the 50s. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-how-will-it-end/587232/65 "2011-06-30T08:14:21Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Or messages with numbers on them. “1. South Korea welcomes your friendship”, “2. Military action will be counter-productive”, and “4. Prosperity awaits anyone who follows message 3.” > > Message 3, of course, does not exist. Drop three greased pigs marked “1”, “2” and “4.” ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-how-will-it-end/587232/66 "2011-06-30T08:48:04Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > I would prefer that we focus on real factors that make an actual difference as far as normal people are concerned. Education, access to medical care, proper housing, that type of thing. I must agree with **Commissar** on this point, at least. All this trumpeting of the superiority of capitalism sounds a wee bit like the cock crowing from a manure pile. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-how-will-it-end/587232/67 "2011-06-30T10:47:10Z")
> [@Sablicious](#): > > Okay. I’ve held off long enough… > **TROLL!!** Next time, hold off until you’re in the Pit. You are not allowed to call other people trolls unless you’re posted in that forum. This is a formal warning not to do this again. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-how-will-it-end/587232/68 "2011-06-30T11:02:12Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Keep in mind that both the Soviet Union and China were able to transform themselves from primitive agricultural boondocks into world-shaking superpowers in approximately two decades with little more than determination and socialism. And the corpses, don’t forget the corpses in Stalin’s 5 year plans for industrial expansion and Mao’s Great Leap Forward. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-how-will-it-end/587232/69 "2011-06-30T14:01:34Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > I must agree with **Commissar** on this point, at least. > > All this trumpeting of the superiority of capitalism sounds a wee bit like the cock crowing from a manure pile. Beats a pile of bodies any day. And much as the notion of breaking a few eggs to make an omelet is repugnant to most of us, these days North Korea has lots of broken eggs and can’t serve any omelets. So this tradeoff is a fiction - North Korea has poor education and much of that propaganda, poor medical care, poor and unequal housing, and the lot. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-how-will-it-end/587232/70 "2011-06-30T14:16:43Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > I must agree with **Commissar** on this point, at least. > > All this trumpeting of the superiority of capitalism sounds a wee bit like the cock crowing from a manure pile. Except his statements make little sense since he’s bragging about not just North Korea but China. Sorry, but the idea that China has the universal access to education, good housing and healthcare is absurd since most of the country are illiterate peasants living without electricity. Similarly, in an earlier thread he bragged about workers rights and constraining corporations but China has far fewer protections on workers and far less constraints on corporations when it comes to safety issues then the US. In fact pointing to China as proof of how glorious communism is makes no sense since China hasn’t been communist in any meaningful way for several decades. Karl Marx would find France, Canada, and even the US closer to his vision than China regardless of whether or not they insist they’re a “People’s Republic”. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-how-will-it-end/587232/71 "2011-06-30T15:40:03Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > You know, if Korea ever is unified, any thorough de-Communization of the North is going to be unthinkable. Some top NK leaders might be locked up for this or that, but, you know, everybody’s a Communist, everybody who runs things is a Party member, you had to join to get anywhere, you can’t put Southern carpetbaggers in **every** management or government position. > > Not only that, but the [Workers’ Party of Korea](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Workers%27_Party) or a successor organization is going to have to have some representation in parliament and, perhaps, have to be included in the government/cabinet. Even if most of its present leaders are locked up for this or that, the party almost certainly will survive in some form – doesn’t matter how discredited it is, millions of North Koreans will, offered a free choice, vote WPK for a while because anything else is inconceivable. That will change eventually, and other parties will gain footholds in the North and the Communist vote share will decline, but that could take anywhere from years to decades. We will de-Communize North Korea the same way the US de-Nazified Germany. ---
**Author:** ![antonio107](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7ea924/32.png) [@antonio107](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antonio107)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-how-will-it-end/587232/72 "2011-06-30T15:47:22Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > We will de-Communize North Korea the same way the US de-Nazified Germany. De-nazifying Germany wasn’t as hard as de-communizing them. The East is still seriously lagging behind in employment and economic development, and at a local level at least, there has been a mild resurgence of the far right and far left parties. Not the best analogy to use to make your case! ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-how-will-it-end/587232/73 "2011-06-30T16:00:38Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > China hasn’t been communist in any meaningful way for several decades. Stop confusing the issue with facts. Hrm… Zimbabwe. Mugabe’s policies are pretty brutal and disliked among most people on the right and the left in America. Therefore, I would like to claim that the Glorious Nation of Zimbabwe is right, proper, and beyond reproach and the Empire Empire Empire of Amerikkka is bad and Glorious Zimbabwe should totally kick its ass. QED. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-how-will-it-end/587232/74 "2011-06-30T16:25:49Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > We will de-Communize North Korea the same way the US de-Nazified Germany. You mean, kinda halfway and let’s move on now, shall we? That’s what I described. In postwar Germany, the Nazi Party and state were dismantled, but it was not necessarily the case that having been a Party member was a career-ender. I mean, everybody joined to move up, and so on. Just like the Communist Party in the USSR, the fall of which involved no general purge of Communists from public life. But, unlike the Nazi Party, and like the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, the Korean Workers’ Party can reasonably expected to survive its fall from power, in some form. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-how-will-it-end/587232/75 "2011-06-30T21:32:53Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > The CIA World Factbook and Wikipedia don’t have this statistic (in all probability, nobody knows), but North Korea probably has a lower gini coefficient than the US. Most communist countries do —largely because the government owns everything, but c’est la vie. Of course, that statistic isn’t especially meaningful, when you take into account that a lower class American would be extremely wealthy by North Korean standards, but it’s a legitimate criterion. I don’t think that is a good criterion since those in charge of the gov vs. those not in charge see massive discrepencies in income. North korea supposedly has a small ruling elite, a quasi-lower middle class in pyongyang and tons of rural poor. THeir inequality is probably worse than what is in Latin America. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-how-will-it-end/587232/76 "2011-06-30T22:15:36Z")
I said _legitimate_, not _good_. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-how-will-it-end/587232/77 "2011-06-30T22:28:21Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > We will de-Communize North Korea the same way the US de-Nazified Germany. You will wait until a glorious socialist nation does all of the work for you, jump onto the “Me too!” wagon at the last second, and then make up fairy tales about how indispensible you really were to the whole process? :dubious: > [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Beats a pile of bodies any day. That’s a nice bit of misdirection, but I’m going to have to call you out on it. Last time I checked, neither socialists nor anyone else had a monopoly on political killing. For example, you may wish to read up on those wonderful capitalist dictatorships that the Empire set up left and right in Latin America during the Cold War. They weren’t exactly known for their pacifism and tolerance towards political dissent, let me tell you that. And just this morning, on my drive to work, there was a nice little report about political killings being carried out by the Empire’s best friend Pakistan’s security apparatus. So, yeah, take care not to strike your own glass houses when flinging your stones our way, friend. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-how-will-it-end/587232/78 "2011-06-30T23:30:40Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > As a start, they’re shutting down the universities for ten months, so the students can go work in factories. That’s just a cover. The real motive is that they don’t want the students all concentrated together and rising up to make trouble for the bosses. The Arab Spring has left North Korea’s leadership with brownies in their shorts. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-how-will-it-end/587232/79 "2011-06-30T23:51:22Z")
[QUOTE=Commissar] That’s a nice bit of misdirection, but I’m going to have to call you out on it. Last time I checked, neither socialists nor anyone else had a monopoly on political killing. For example, you may wish to read up on those wonderful capitalist dictatorships that the Empire set up left and right in Latin America during the Cold War. They weren’t exactly known for their pacifism and tolerance towards political dissent, let me tell you that. And just this morning, on my drive to work, there was a nice little report about political killings being carried out by the Empire’s best friend Pakistan’s security apparatus. So, yeah, take care not to strike your own glass houses when flinging your stones our way, friend. [/QUOTE] (Leaving aside your attempt to deflect this into a discussion about socialism and move the goal posts) Well, we could look at body count I suppose. According to Cecil’s article [here](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2419/was-andrew-jackson-one-of-the-worlds-most-prolific-mass-murderers), “communist and fascist regimes accounted for 84 percent of democidal deaths during the period studied”. > [@](#): > > Defining terms this way puts the Nazi slaughter in perspective. The following are Rummel’s 12 most murderous regimes (from his article in the Encyclopedia of Genocide, 1999): (1) USSR, 62 million deaths, 1917-'87; (2) People’s Republic of China, 35 million, 1949-'87; (3) Germany, 21 million, 1933-'45; (4) nationalist China, 10 million, 1928-'49; (5) Japan, 6 million, 1936-'45; (6) prerevolutionary Chinese communists (“Mao Soviets”), 3.5 million, 1923-'49; (7) Cambodia, 2 million, 1975-'79; (8) Turkey (Armenian genocide), 1.9 million, 1909-'18; (9) Vietnam, 1.7 million, 1945-'87; (10) Poland, 1.6 million, 1945-'48; (11) Pakistan, 1.5 million, 1958-'87; (12) Yugoslavia, 1.1 million, 1944-'87. Three additional “suspected megamurderers,” as Rummel puts it, are North Korea, 1.7 million deaths, 1948-'87; Mexico, 1.4 million, 1900-'20; and czarist Russia, 1.1 million, 1900-'17. > > Rummel goes on to identify the top nine killers: (1) Joseph Stalin, 43 million dead, 1929-'53; (2) Mao Tse-tung, 38 million, 1923-'76; (3) Adolf Hitler, 21 million, 1933-'45; (4) Chiang Kai-shek, 10 million, 1921-'48; (5) Vladimir Lenin, 4 million, 1917-'24; (6) Tojo Hideki (Japan), 4 million, 1941-'45; (7) Pol Pot, 2.4 million, 1968-'87; (8) Yahya Khan (Pakistan), 1.5 million, 1971; (9) Josip Broz, better known as Marshal Tito (Yugoslavia), 1.2 million, 1941-'80. One thing about the above springs to mind immediately…not many of them were democracies by any definition of that term. All of them were totalitarian governments…you know, like North Korea. According to [this](http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html), your Great Leader in the North (father to the current scum bag loony in charge) has killed “1.6 million (purges and concentration camps)”. This figure, of course, is very tenuous since no one really knows the exact number he killed, and, of course, doesn’t count those who just starved to death due to monumental mismanagement. I will admit that this particular cite is controversial, but I couldn’t find another easy to read estimate of the numbers of people deliberately killed by the North Korean regime…basically because ANY figures would be estimates considering the level of secrecy and fear in that country. I’ve seen estimates in the 10’s of millions, but I think those are a bit out there unless you count the deaths due to mismanagement, starvation, poor nutrition and the like, which would be even more difficult to quantify due to how opaque North Korea is. That said, don’t you find it interesting that the top 2 killers AND the top 2 most murderous regimes in the 20th century were also the top 2 communist countries/leaders during that time frame? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-how-will-it-end/587232/80 "2011-07-01T00:52:18Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > That’s just a cover. The real motive is that they don’t want the students all concentrated together and rising up to make trouble for the bosses. The Arab Spring has left North Korea’s leadership with brownies in their shorts. I understand that, and I agree. I just thought **Commissar** might have something to say about the end of advanced education in N. Korea, which is so desperate that intelligent people like him are being sent to work in the fields. So far, not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-how-will-it-end/587232.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-how-will-it-end/587232.md?page=5)