# North Korea returns to six-nation talks. Glimmer of hope? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2005, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-returns-to-six-nation-talks-glimmer-of-hope/312049 "2005-07-11T19:33:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-returns-to-six-nation-talks-glimmer-of-hope/312049/1 "2005-07-11T19:33:52Z")
North Korea is abandoning its year-long boycott of nuclear disarmament talks – and its insistence that bilateral talks with the U.S. must come first – and has agreed to resume six-nation negotiations with the U.S., South Korea, Japan, China and Russia. [http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/12095375.htm](http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/12095375.htm) Is there any chance this might lead to some fruitful resolution? The actual dismantling of NK’s nuclear arsenal, perhaps? Warming relations with SK that might eventually lead to reunification without war? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-returns-to-six-nation-talks-glimmer-of-hope/312049/2 "2005-07-11T20:03:15Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Is there any chance this might lead to some fruitful resolution? Now that Bolton is gone, anything is possible. Condi will have to reign in her cold-warrior non-proliferation schtick if she’s serious about real progress, but mayhap she will. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-returns-to-six-nation-talks-glimmer-of-hope/312049/3 "2005-07-12T13:03:44Z")
[Details emerge:](http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=535&e=5&u=/ap/20050712/ap_on_re_as/rice) > [@](#): > > Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice brushed aside suggestions Tuesday that a South Korean offer of substantial food aid to > North Korea could stiffen that country’s resistance to U.S. demands that the country dismantle its nuclear weapons program. > … > After Rice spoke, South Korea made a second surprise announcement, disclosing that it would provide generous energy assistance to the North if Pyongyang agreed to eliminate its atomic weapons program. If the South’s second anouncement means that they’ll be helping North Korea finish it’s light water reactor project, we’ll be pretty much back to the pre-Bush approach. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-returns-to-six-nation-talks-glimmer-of-hope/312049/4 "2005-07-13T03:52:14Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > [Details emerge:](http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=535&e=5&u=/ap/20050712/ap_on_re_as/rice) If the South’s second anouncement means that they’ll be helping North Korea finish it’s light water reactor project . . . Why would they? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-returns-to-six-nation-talks-glimmer-of-hope/312049/5 "2005-07-13T04:07:04Z")
We’ll have to wait for more details. This seems like a good sign, and it makes you wonder what triggered the North Koreans into this move? Has the U.S. simply waited them out, and the pressures of their failing economy are forcing them to the bargaining table? That seems like a real possibility. The original U.S. plan was to get China to lean on them, but China hasn’t really cooperated in that (publically, at least). So I wonder if the fallback position isn’t to simply wait them out and let North Korea’s crumbling economy apply its own pressure? Then they come to the table, and get the carrots offered, so long as they’re willing to get serious about getting rid of their nukes. On the other hand, this could also be a case of someone making too generous an offer and essentially bribing them. That would be bad, because it would reward their threatening posture, perhaps give them more nuclear technology, and help improve their economy, giving them more economic power. That would not be smart. That would just force the confrontation a few years down the road, when the economy in North Korea starts to collapse again. Then we get to play this same game, this time with North Korea with a few hundred nukes and an aging madman with the button. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-returns-to-six-nation-talks-glimmer-of-hope/312049/6 "2005-07-13T04:29:56Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > This seems like a good sign, and it makes you wonder what triggered the North Koreans into this move? Has the U.S. simply waited them out… Here’s two possibilities: > [@](#): > > Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice on Wednesday praised a South Korean energy aid proposal that enticed North Korea to end its 13-month boycott of nuclear disarmament talks, and she renewed calls for Pyongyang to abandon its atomic programs. > [@](#): > > North Korea said over the weekend it would return to the nuclear talks the week of July 25 after being reassured by the top U.S. nuclear envoy that Washington recognized Pyongyang’s sovereignty. [http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=535&e=3&u=/ap/20050713/ap\_on\_re\_as/koreas\_nuclear](http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=535&e=3&u=/ap/20050713/ap_on_re_as/koreas_nuclear) Neither seem to involve the US waiting them out. The US appears to have shifted from a progress, then carrots stance, to a carrots, then progress stance. That _does_ seem like a good sign. ---
**Author:** ![MMI](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/53a042/32.png) [@MMI](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MMI)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-returns-to-six-nation-talks-glimmer-of-hope/312049/7 "2005-07-14T14:51:28Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Here’s two possibilities: > [http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=535&e=3&u=/ap/20050713/ap\_on\_re\_as/koreas\_nuclear](http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=535&e=3&u=/ap/20050713/ap_on_re_as/koreas_nuclear) > > Neither seem to involve the US waiting them out. > The US appears to have shifted from a progress, then carrots stance, to a carrots, then progress stance. > That _does_ seem like a good sign. My understanding is that Rice also clarified our position with respect to invading North Korea - we won’t. This is something that the DPRK has been seeking for quite some time and we have refused to give them til now. So at least now we can talk, which is something. [http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfile-english&y=2005&m=July&x=20050709120144lebahcb0.9158899&t=livefeeds/wf-latest.html](http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfile-english&y=2005&m=July&x=20050709120144lebahcb0.9158899&t=livefeeds/wf-latest.html) ---
**Author:** ![MMI](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/53a042/32.png) [@MMI](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MMI)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-returns-to-six-nation-talks-glimmer-of-hope/312049/8 "2005-07-14T14:52:58Z")
That post was not in specific response to Squink - just hit the wrong quick reply button ---
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-returns-to-six-nation-talks-glimmer-of-hope/312049/9 "2005-07-15T03:13:56Z")
With nuclear weapons, Kim is a wild card who commands attention, if not grudging respect, on the international stage. Without it, he is the hapless leader of a pissant basketcase and punchline to a very bad joke. Kim’s textbook narcissism and megalomania make him unlikely to negotiate away anything that doesn’t make him look all-powerful. Besides, I doubt the military hawks breathing down his neck would stand for his bargaining away the “glorious” nuclear weapons that put that nation on the map. Remember: this is a delusional, wildly paranoid leadership. Ultimately, Kim is no Gorbachev. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-returns-to-six-nation-talks-glimmer-of-hope/312049/10 "2005-07-15T07:03:22Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > The US appears to have shifted from a progress, then carrots stance, to a carrots, then progress stance. > That _does_ seem like a good sign. Don’t forget that carrots can be employed in capacities irrelevant to their food-value! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-returns-to-six-nation-talks-glimmer-of-hope/312049/11 "2005-09-19T16:08:51Z")
Looks like it worked! 🙂 > **[Miami.com Food, Tourism, Clubs & Travel News | Miami Herald](https://www.miamiherald.com/miami-com/)** ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-returns-to-six-nation-talks-glimmer-of-hope/312049/12 "2005-09-19T16:15:44Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Looks like it worked! 🙂 With North Korea, you _always_ have to wait a week or two to be sure everything isn’t just a ‘translation error’. -A hopeful sign though. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-returns-to-six-nation-talks-glimmer-of-hope/312049/13 "2005-09-19T18:13:16Z")
It’s irrelevant what North Korea says in verbal or written form. As long as it is ruled by a nutjob dictator the country does not exist beyond his whims. N Korea is a country of 1 and that individual is unstable. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-returns-to-six-nation-talks-glimmer-of-hope/312049/14 "2005-09-19T20:52:59Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It’s irrelevant what North Korea says in verbal or written form. As long as it is ruled by a nutjob dictator the country does not exist beyond his whims. N Korea is a country of 1 and that individual is unstable. I concur. Although there had been a lot of speculation and intelligence-gathering, until NK conducts an actual nuclear test, there is no way to know what their actual capabilities are. There may have been concessions made in exchange for a bluff. Even if it _wasn’t_ a bluff, there is no reason to suspect we won’t be going through this again two years from now, when NK starts making noises, everybody freaks out, only to calm down when NK gets another food shipment that’ll let it limp and hobble along until the _next_ Korean crisis, ad nauseum. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2005, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-returns-to-six-nation-talks-glimmer-of-hope/312049/15 "2005-09-20T02:01:20Z")
[That’s not a PIG in that poke!](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050920/ap_on_re_as/nkorea_reactor) > [@](#): > > North Korea said Tuesday it would not dismantle its nuclear weapons program until the United States first provides an atomic energy reactor, casting doubt on its commitment to a breakthrough agreement reached at international arms talks. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2005, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-returns-to-six-nation-talks-glimmer-of-hope/312049/16 "2005-09-20T21:40:14Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > [That’s not a PIG in that poke!](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050920/ap_on_re_as/nkorea_reactor) Well gee, I’m surprised. Would they like that power plant with or without the optional 3 stage booster. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2005, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-returns-to-six-nation-talks-glimmer-of-hope/312049/17 "2005-09-20T21:46:57Z")
North Korea sure is a puzzle: Don’t give us aid, and we’ll build nukes. Give us aid, and we’ll fuck with you for a while, and then build nukes anyway. Meanwhile, we’re going to torture and starve our own people some more. Thanks for playing! I really don’t know what to think of it all, because the NK leadership is constitutionally incapable of anything but a bizarre pattern of brinksmanship. Whenever I hear about some new development, I always wonder “what’s their game _this_ time?” ---
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2005, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-returns-to-six-nation-talks-glimmer-of-hope/312049/18 "2005-09-20T21:54:15Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Looks like it worked! 🙂 > > [http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/12686316.htm](http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/12686316.htm) You’re kidding, right? Why would Kim negotiate away his trump card? Without nukes, he is the leader of an international basketcase with footnote status. With them, he can bask in the spotlight and make the world’s major powers plead for a little face time. Kim is jerking the international community around and will continue to do so, irrespective of the deepening plight of his countrymen. Moreover, it’s unlikely his paranoid senior leadership would allow him to surrender their precious nukes and submit to intrusive international inspection that would be fronted by Western intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2005, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-returns-to-six-nation-talks-glimmer-of-hope/312049/19 "2005-09-20T22:09:29Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > North Korea sure is a puzzle: Don’t give us aid, and we’ll build nukes. Give us aid, and we’ll fuck with you for a while, and then build nukes anyway. Meanwhile, we’re going to torture and starve our own people some more. Thanks for playing! > > I really don’t know what to think of it all, because the NK leadership is constitutionally incapable of anything but a bizarre pattern of brinksmanship. Which is, I think exactly the idea. They’re doing exactly the same thing others have done at times with the west, which is creating a kind of strategic uncertainty which works to their advantage. If they just stayed permanantly in “fuck you” mode, they would look like the bad guys and the US/UN/etc would plan accordingly. By occasionally seeming reasonable, they stall for time, which is all they really want. What’s that Python sketch where the one guy alternates between normal conversation and vicious abuse? By interspersing courtesy with vitriol, he keeps the conversation going much longer than it would have otherwise. So they wait a few months to set up the talks. Then they spend a few days talking about trivialities. Then they make some token concessions. Then they suggest a recess of a few months. Then they come back and talk some more. Then they get upset and break off the talks. And it gets played in the press like “the diplomats were so close to getting something done.” Maybe there’s a new demand, and we just give them whatever it is, they’ll come back. If not, well by then it’s 2007 and Bush has one foot out the door. Nothing’s going to happen until there’s a new administration, and NOKO will wait to see what they’re like. Wish I could be optimistic ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2005, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-returns-to-six-nation-talks-glimmer-of-hope/312049/20 "2005-09-20T22:30:45Z")
> [@furt](#): > > By occasionally seeming reasonable, they stall for time, which is all they really want. But, why is “time,” by itself, valuable to NK at present? For what would they stall? To delay any decisive military action by the U.S.? Ain’t gonna be none nohow. And if they need any foreign aid, they’re under some time pressure themselves and they can’t afford to stall on any prerequisite agreements. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-returns-to-six-nation-talks-glimmer-of-hope/312049.md?page=2)