# North Korea - Should the West/UN take action? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 18, 2014, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-should-the-west-un-take-action/681573 "2014-02-18T01:08:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-should-the-west-un-take-action/681573/41 "2014-02-18T23:21:20Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I heard the same news story today and thought: There is something terribly wrong with the world where we (not the US, but let’s just say the industrialized world) are unable to do something about this. Or, rather, that we couldn’t do something about this 10 years ago or 20 years ago. This is not really news-- this has been going on for decades. The problem is when you start invading countries just because they’re fucked up, where do you draw the line? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-should-the-west-un-take-action/681573/42 "2014-02-18T23:52:35Z")
So in order to rescue all the starving peasants in North Korea, we’re going to start a war where we slaughter the feckless North Korean army and smash its infrastructure. I’m sure the millions of dead will be thankful for our sacrifices in their name. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-should-the-west-un-take-action/681573/43 "2014-02-19T00:07:55Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > So in order to rescue all the starving peasants in North Korea, we’re going to start a war where we slaughter the feckless North Korean army and smash its infrastructure. > > I’m sure the millions of dead will be thankful for our sacrifices in their name. I came in here to say exactly the same thing. I’m not sure if people realize how catastrophic an all out war on the Korean peninsula would be, but it would be epically bad. Literally millions would die if they went all out on each other. No doubt North Korea would fall, but even leaving aside the millions dead the clean up would take decades and the impact to the global economy would be extreme as well. Hard as it is, the best thing to do is really to just wait for the inevitable crash of North Korea and hope that the humanitarian aid we are able to send will be enough. It’s sort of like watching a slowly unfolding air plane crash…all we can really do is wait, watch and send aid when it finally hits the ground…and hope there are survivors. The West/UN/US taking action would be the equivalent of trying to hurry the planes descent to the ground with a few air to air missiles in the hopes the crash will happen faster. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-should-the-west-un-take-action/681573/44 "2014-02-19T00:15:29Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > The US presence isn’t large enough to have a decisive military impact anyway, they’re mostly there for show, and as a tripwire to bring the US into a conflict, and facilitate the introduction of US forces. I don’t know why you would say that in one breath and then expound on the efficacy of the ROK forces. Who trained and equipped the ROK? And 30,000 Army, Navy, Marines and Air Force of the US military is a formidable force. Certainly nothing to sniff at. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-should-the-west-un-take-action/681573/45 "2014-02-19T00:30:31Z")
> [@GreedySmurf](#): > > An article I read this morning likened it to the Holocaust, in the sense that the catch cry after WWII was “If only we’d known”. What difference would it have made? The Allies were already throwing everything they had at the Axis. Western publicity about the Holocaust would have been good for morale-and-propaganda purposes, but it would not have saved a single Jew or Gypsy or Jehovah’s Witness or homosexual or Social Democrat, etc. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-should-the-west-un-take-action/681573/46 "2014-02-19T00:32:27Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The only sane option at this time is to continue maintaining the status quo until such time as a North Korean regime appears that’s willing to play ball. If that means waiting until young Kim Jong-un passes from the scene, we’ll be waiting a while. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-should-the-west-un-take-action/681573/47 "2014-02-19T00:34:49Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > Yes, the US should get off of the Korean Peninsula, both militarily and diplomatically. South Korea has twice the population and over 40 times the economic power of the North. They can defend themselves, should it be necessary. The US presence isn’t large enough to have a decisive military impact anyway, they’re mostly there for show, and as a tripwire to bring the US into a conflict, and facilitate the introduction of US forces. > > The people of Korea are perfectly capable of reuniting their peninsula on their own. The Chinese apparently consider it nigh-unacceptable to have US troops on their border. Having them in Afghanistan is bad enough, but having them in a united Korea, thus bordering China, would be very alarming. Ideally, North Korea would be brought to a soft landing, with economic inroads made by the South Koreans and Chinese (a la China’s recent activities in some countries as miserable as the DPRK), but from my perspective, even a collapsing North would be preferable to the status quo, as it would enable a humanitarian effort to take place. After all, all the neighboring countries are in a position to give help, and more would arrive from overseas. I’ve said it before: Both U.S. **and** SK forces should simply withdraw from the DMZ. After tearing down all the fences on the southern side. Send a message to NK: “We don’t even need to defend this border, because we know and you know that it would be suicide for you to cross it.” It saves money and tension, and the NK troops remaining along the DMZ will start to wonder what they’re doing there anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-should-the-west-un-take-action/681573/48 "2014-02-19T01:59:31Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > They’re not so well-protected that they can survive being pounded by all the (largely unmolested) air strikes that would arrive within minutes. Even if the DPRK batteries retreat back into their fortifications, the air strikes (by loitering, watching aircraft) will keep them pinned down until ROK forces overrun them. You just don’t get it, do you? Seoul is about 30 miles from the DMZ. Kim Jong-Un could push the button right now and Seoul would be decimated before we could do a damn thing about it. The ROK military may be far more advanced and well-equipped in every way than the DPRK military, but that’s irrelevant to this issue. They don’t need anything fancy or high-tech to do the job. All they need is good old fashioned heavy artillery, and they’ve got it, locked, loaded, and ready to go. Sure we could blow up their batteries, no problem, but Seoul would already be gone. > [@OurLordPeace](#): > > I have researched and written on this issue. Are you sure you’ve researched this issue? Because you simply do not sound at all knowledgeable about the North Korean situation. Most of what you say seems to be based on conjecture and not evidence. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The problem is when you start invading countries just because they’re fucked up, where do you draw the line? Fortunately, invasion is not considered to be a useful action as far as resolving the North Korean situation at this point. I don’t know where we should draw the line as far as where in the world we should be taking some sort of action, but I’d say “the most fucked up country on Earth” certainly qualifies. > [@snowthx](#): > > To me, this UN report seems more likely to pressure China than North Korea. How much pressure China may feel is up for debate (IMHO, not much). North Korea is already claiming the information is all faked. Oy. I think you’re right in that the report is more likely to have an effect on China. It never even occurred to me that NK would do anything in response. I’ve been hoping that it directly or indirectly causes China to change its tune. China is the linchpin when it comes to resolving this whole mess. If China moves on the issue, then there is a chance that the people of North Korea can be helped. If they stay firm, then there’s little anybody can do. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-should-the-west-un-take-action/681573/49 "2014-02-19T02:19:36Z")
> [@Green\_Bean](#): > > Fortunately, invasion is not considered to be a useful action as far as resolving the North Korean situation at this point. I don’t know where we should draw the line as far as where in the world we should be taking some sort of action, but I’d say “the most fucked up country on Earth” certainly qualifies. But if the suggestion is we need to do something, invasion’s about the only thing left on the table. North Korea has been the target of extensive diplomatic and economic sanctions for decades and these don’t seem to be moving the country in the right direction. So the only realistic options are invasion or accepting the ongoing existence of the Kim regime. I personally think invasion would be a bad idea. So to answer the OP’s question, I think this is not a situation where the West/UN should take action. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-should-the-west-un-take-action/681573/50 "2014-02-19T03:38:40Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I’ve said it before: Both U.S. **and** SK forces should simply withdraw from the DMZ. After tearing down all the fences on the southern side. Send a message to NK: “We don’t even need to defend this border, because we know and you know that it would be suicide for you to cross it.” It saves money and tension, and the NK troops remaining along the DMZ will start to wonder what they’re doing there anyway. Yeah, 'cause we don’t care if the NK sends across it’s covert teams to murder or abduct SK citizens or blow up shit, like they have in the past, because…because…because it would be suicide for them to do that, or to sink SK warships…and stuff. You tell em BG, 'cause you obviously know a lot about this! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-should-the-west-un-take-action/681573/51 "2014-02-19T03:51:56Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > And the US military presence and posture was still there. Didn’t they also notice when US pressure ended the “Sunshine Policy”? The Sunshine Policy ended after Lee Myung-Bak became President, and after North Korea, against the wishes of the international community and against its own promises, conducted a nuclear test. US pressure had nothing to do with it. US policy isn’t responsible for the situation now in North Korea…North Korea is. North Korea is choosing to conduct nuclear brinkmanship; it’s choosing to mismanage its economy; it’s choosing to deny its citizens basic human rights. I don’t know what the solution is to the problem that is North Korea. But I do know that you don’t get anywhere by acting as if the North Korean government are good actors. ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-should-the-west-un-take-action/681573/52 "2014-02-19T04:03:44Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > No, there isn’t. There is exactly zero credible evidence that the Cheonan sinking was anything other than an attack by North Korea. This is off the subject, and I’m not saying I believe it, but there is, in fact, debate regarding the cause of the sinking. It’s off the subject because it only reinforces my point. If the DPRK is willing to do that, then that’s all the more reason American forces shouldn’t be there, in (a certain amount of) harm’s way, needlessly (if unintentionally) provoking the DPRK for no good reason. > [@](#): > > The point remains the same. So does mine. > [@](#): > > Actually, plenty of people in the North do believe that propaganda. That is part of the overall problem. Exactly. They’re paranoid enough to think they might be attacked. Best not to fuel their paranoia. > [@](#): > > Try cracking some good books this time. So “good” means “reinforcing the interventionist status quo, since [sarcasm on] Woodrow Wilson really did end all wars! [sarcasm off]” Would “good” not include [something like this](http://www.amazon.com/North-Korea-South-Policy-Crisis/dp/1583226036), written by a well-regarded and oft-published author, who [just a week ago brought readers up to date on the situation](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-feffer/why-north-korea-today-is_b_4767687.html)? Or how about [something from a very different place on the ideological spectrum,](http://www.forbes.com/sites/dougbandow/2013/04/08/turn-the-north-korean-problem-over-to-north-koreas-neighbors/) but similarly advocating for the US to leave Korea? > [@](#): > > That is a stunningly ignorant stance. How so? [Intervention leads to blowback, and yet people advocate for more intervention!](http://www.antiwar.com/orig/horton.php?articleid=5711) That seems pretty ignorant to me. ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-should-the-west-un-take-action/681573/53 "2014-02-19T04:07:47Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > So, you’ve written on the subject, hey? What have you written? I mean, what have you written besides something in middle or high school or at university? What have you gotten published by a reputable publisher? All of it was during and after graduate school, actually. I don’t want to use my real name here, and linking to my articles (appearing on the site of a think tank, and then reprinted by news sites and agencies) would do that. I can link to those analysts who helped me to think outside the imperial box, though, and I did just that above. ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-should-the-west-un-take-action/681573/54 "2014-02-19T04:24:19Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > I don’t know why you would say that in one breath and then expound on the efficacy of the ROK forces. Who trained and equipped the ROK? > > And 30,000 Army, Navy, Marines and Air Force of the US military is a formidable force. Certainly nothing to sniff at. Right, those 30,000 are superfluous. Removing them doesn’t make it an even context. [Richard Thompson said it best, over twenty years ago](http://www.lyricsmania.com/yankee_go_home_lyrics_richard_thompson.html). > [@Green\_Bean](#): > > You just don’t get it, do you? > > Seoul is about 30 miles from the DMZ. Kim Jong-Un could push the button right now and Seoul would be decimated before we could do a damn thing about it. > > The ROK military may be far more advanced and well-equipped in every way than the DPRK military, but that’s irrelevant to this issue. They don’t need anything fancy or high-tech to do the job. All they need is good old fashioned heavy artillery, and they’ve got it, locked, loaded, and ready to go. Sure we could blow up their batteries, no problem, but Seoul would already be gone. I know how close Seoul is, and I know what the DPRK has pointed at it. Airstrikes and counter-battery fire can also cover that distance very quickly, as soon as the South detects the first certain sign of danger. You think the ROK isn’t prepared for this? You write that Seoul would be “decimated,” which means reduced by a tenth, and then later you write that Seoul would be gone. Which is it? Although, you may have an interesting perspective, if you’re in the ROK military or US forces in Korea, since you say “ **we** could blow up their batteries…” > [@](#): > > Are you sure you’ve researched this issue? Because you simply do not sound at all knowledgeable about the North Korean situation. Most of what you say seems to be based on conjecture and not evidence. Yes. Have you looked at anything other than standard-issue Washington fear-mongering? > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > The Sunshine Policy ended after Lee Myung-Bak became President, and after North Korea, against the wishes of the international community and against its own promises, conducted a nuclear test. US pressure had nothing to do with it. US policy isn’t responsible for the situation now in North Korea…North Korea is. North Korea is choosing to conduct nuclear brinkmanship; it’s choosing to mismanage its economy; it’s choosing to deny its citizens basic human rights. I don’t know what the solution is to the problem that is North Korea. But I do know that you don’t get anywhere by acting as if the North Korean government are good actors. Indeed, they are not good actors at all, [which is why Washington’s interference in things like the Sunshine Policy is particularly unhelpful.](http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2013/04/02/explaining-north-korea/) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-should-the-west-un-take-action/681573/55 "2014-02-19T04:38:36Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > Indeed, they are not good actors at all, [which is why Washington’s interference in things like the Sunshine Policy is particularly unhelpful.](http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2013/04/02/explaining-north-korea/) The Sunshine Policy was a disaster, so if the US was opposed to it, good for the US. But the thing is, the US didn’t interfere in the Sunshine Policy. The Sunshine Policy didn’t get canceled because of anything the US did or didn’t do. It got canceled by continued provocations by N. Korea. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-should-the-west-un-take-action/681573/56 "2014-02-19T04:58:12Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > This is off the subject, and I’m not saying I believe it, but there is, in fact, debate regarding the cause of the sinking. There is also debate over whether we actually landed on the moon. > [@OurLordPeace](#): > > You think the ROK isn’t prepared for this? You write that Seoul would be “decimated,” which means reduced by a tenth, and then later you write that Seoul would be gone. Which is it? “Decimated” only means “reduced by one tenth” in the historical context of the Roman army. Look it up. I’d recommend the OED, but I’m afraid you’d reject it as “imperialist” or something. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-should-the-west-un-take-action/681573/57 "2014-02-19T05:09:37Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > the imperial box :rolleyes: I simply don’t believe you have the qualifications you say you do or that you have done any actual research into the issue. The reasons for my belief are your postings in this thread. [For your edification](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/decimate). ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-should-the-west-un-take-action/681573/58 "2014-02-19T05:15:44Z")
> [@Green\_Bean](#): > > There is also debate over whether we actually landed on the moon. “We” landed on the moon? I would certainly dispute anyone claiming that I landed on the moon. I don’t know whether or not you did. As for the sinking controversy, I don’t necessarily agree with the skeptics, but they look more credible than, say, the fake-moon-landing conspiracy adherents. Either way, it doesn’t matter. > [@](#): > > “Decimated” only means “reduced by one tenth” in the historical context of the Roman army. Look it up. I’d recommend the OED, but I’m afraid you’d reject it as “imperialist” or something. I know it got corrupted, and I don’t like that. Language should change to make more sense, not less. If the OED bowed to that, it’s a pity. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-should-the-west-un-take-action/681573/59 "2014-02-19T05:24:16Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But if the suggestion is we need to do something, invasion’s about the only thing left on the table. North Korea has been the target of extensive diplomatic and economic sanctions for decades and these don’t seem to be moving the country in the right direction. > > So the only realistic options are invasion or accepting the ongoing existence of the Kim regime. I personally think invasion would be a bad idea. So to answer the OP’s question, I think this is not a situation where the West/UN should take action. To say the only realistic options are invasion or accepting the status quo is creating a false dichotomy. There is a viable third option, which is getting China to stop supporting and protecting the Kim regime, and that includes stopping with the persecution of North Korean refugees. This won’t be easy and the positive results will likely take some time to develop, but this seems to be the best choice at the moment. Without China aiding and abetting them, the regime will topple. (Eventually.) ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-should-the-west-un-take-action/681573/60 "2014-02-19T05:25:49Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > :rolleyes: > > I simply don’t believe you have the qualifications you say you do or that you have done any actual research into the issue. The reasons for my belief are your postings in this thread. > > [For your edification](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/decimate). An eye-roll isn’t a rebuttal. Right now I feel like one of the “Little Englanders” who opposed Britain’s expansionist, interventionist, _imperial_ role in the world, and were widely treated as crackpots, only to be proved correct, again and again. Why is it fine for the US to put bases all around the world, when US citizens wouldn’t allow a foreign military base on US soil? Why should the US have border conflicts with countries in Asia, among other places? We’re coming up on the centenary of the First World War’s first shots. Let’s (all of us, as a species) not make those same mistakes again. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-should-the-west-un-take-action/681573.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-should-the-west-un-take-action/681573.md?page=4)