# North Korea suspending missile testing and closing nuclear site; Trump the statesman? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 20, 2018, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829 "2018-04-20T23:09:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/621 "2018-06-15T09:23:03Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > How many times has North Korea promised that, and more, and never complied? North Korea previously pledged denuclearization in 1985, 1992, 1994, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2008, 2010, 2011, 2012 and 2016. But _this time_ they definitely [del]won’t pull away the football[/del] will do it! ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/622 "2018-06-15T10:13:28Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > The sheer tribalism of “It’s good when my side does it and bad when the other side does” is just jaw-dropping… Also if you need a little primer on the differences between the Iran deal and this North Korea thing, here’s a [great article on it](http://theweek.com/articles/778551/trump-doctrine-isnt-america-bitch-im-trump-bitch). > [@](#): > > But in the end, Trump’s deal with Kim will very likely be a weaker, vaguer, and less-binding version of the Obama-era Iran deal that Trump tore up in May after mercilessly berating it as “too weak.” Indeed, Obama’s Iran deal forced the mullahs to give up 98 percent of their uranium. North Korea hasn’t even made full disclosure of its arsenal, and yet Trump has declared that it is no longer a nuclear threat. Trump has slammed Obama for giving billions of dollars is cash to Iran, except that it was Iran’s own money. Trump, in contrast, has already unilaterally declared that America will no longer conduct war games with South Korea because that is too provocative for North Korea. The difference between America’s concessions to Iran versus North Korea is, of course, that in the latter case it’s Trump making them. > > Trump’s North Korea deal will likely be no stronger than the 1994 deal that President Bill Clinton signed with Pyongyang and arguably a whole lot weaker than the 2005 framework that the Bush administration signed. (The latter actually required North Korea to “abandon all nuclear weapons and existing nuclear programs.”) It would be foolish to believe that this time it will work. > > But Trump really does seem to believe it — because he believes in nothing but himself. He has no guiding ideology here, no doctrine, even one that puts American force and confidence at its center, as his hawkish advisers like John Bolton do. There is only Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/623 "2018-06-15T13:22:28Z")
Ravenman, It is you who do not understand a thing. Iran is a nation that still burns our flags, and chants death to America. Their leader did not sign, because they have no intention of being on record for agreement. The whole thing was founded on a welcome fool’s hope, and that fool was American. Iran is on record for wanting to destroy our ally, Israel. And with nuclear weapons, they could do it. Any attack on Israel would likely see them hitting with everything back and drag us in. They never changed their language, even after the funds were transferred to them. Iran did not halt testing of their long-range missiles, did they? No, they did not. At least North Korea is.Iran’s Supreme leader did not meet with our President. They only wanted our cash and frozen assets freed up to fund among other things terrorism. And we gave it to them. As far as inspections go, what didn’t we have to wait 20+ days? What’s the point of an inspection then? ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/624 "2018-06-15T13:26:31Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > [A picture is worth a thousand words.](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:JCPOA_Signatures.png) > > Top left, minister of foreign affairs for Iran. The Supreme Leader ( Ali Khamenei ), is the commander-in-chief of the armed forces and the provisional head of the three branches of the state (the Judiciary, the Legislature, and the Executive). He would need to sign to make it valid. He did not. More on the power he has can be viewed below: > **[Supreme Leader of Iran](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Leader_of_Iran)** > > The supreme leader of Iran (Persian: رهبر معظم ایران, romanized: Rahbar-e Moazam-e Irân (listenⓘ)), also referred to as supreme leader of the Islamic Revolution (رهبر معظم انقلاب اسلامی, Rahbar-e Moazam-e Enqelâb-e Eslâmi), but officially called the Supreme Leadership Authority (مقام معظم رهبری, Maqâm Moazam Rahbari), is the head of state and the highest political and religious authority of the Islamic Republic of Iran (above the President). The armed forces, judiciary, state television, and o Th... ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/625 "2018-06-15T13:28:33Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > As far as inspections go, what didn’t we have to wait 20+ days? What’s the point of an inspection then? You need to talk to the inspectors with technology to detect radioactive signatures months after they have been removed. The inspections prevented Iran from developing nuclear weapons. There will be no inspections in North Korea. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/626 "2018-06-15T13:37:16Z")
Add the NK meeting to ending the Iran deal, and Trump is really helping our enemies. Iran got the money we owed them from decades ago, and now they can end the inspections and nuclear restrictions if they want, all because of Trump. Thank you Trump for helping Iran have an easier path to nuclear weapons, with no benefit to America! And thank you Trump for helping Kim with incredible pageantry, legitimacy, and praise, along with ending joint US-SK exercises that NK has wanted gone for decades, with no benefit to America! Well done Trump for helping our enemies and gaining nothing for the US! ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/627 "2018-06-15T13:48:09Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > Iran is a nation that still burns our flags, and chants death to America. Back in the 70’s a generation of Americans did the same thing. And some of them you shot, but never mind, look how far you’ve come since. Mind you, at the current rate of diplomatic progress by the end of Trumps second term your allies will be burning flags whilst your ideological enemies will be signing beachfront condo deals in the Rose Garden. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/628 "2018-06-15T13:55:57Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > Ravenman, > > It is you who do not understand a thing I understand Iran. You don’t understand the JCPOA. For example… > [@](#): > > As far as inspections go, what didn’t we have to wait 20+ days? What’s the point of an inspection then? Not only do you have this wrong, are you aware that there are scientific inspection techniques that are effective in detecting the presence of nuclear materials for far longer than it could take to eliminate them? Some of these methods were used to detect that North Korea had cheated on the Agreed Framework. Furthermore, the important part of the JCPOA is the end to end visibility for the IAEA of the entire nuclear production cycle, not the promptness of looking behind one particular door. This is well-known to people who study these matters. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/629 "2018-06-15T13:57:10Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > The Supreme Leader ( Ali Khamenei ), is the commander-in-chief of the armed forces and the provisional head of the three branches of the state (the Judiciary, the Legislature, and the Executive). He would need to sign to make it valid. > > He did not. > > More on the power he has can be viewed below: > > [Supreme Leader of Iran - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Leader_of_Iran) If Iran didn’t agree to the deal, why has Trump’s Secretary of Defense and top intelligence officials repeatedly testified under oath that Iran is carrying out its commitments under the deal? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/630 "2018-06-15T14:02:24Z")
Will this actually lead to verifiable denuclearization? No of course not. Is it better than two madmen swinging their missiles at each other arguing with each other whose is bigger? Also yes. So far at least there is no there there but not being there is better than where they were. Sharing a delusion of seeing themselves as having accomplished something is better than threatening to blow each other up. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/631 "2018-06-15T14:42:39Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > Ravenman, > > It is you who do not understand a thing. Iran is a nation that still burns our flags, and chants death to America. Their leader did not sign, because they have no intention of being on record for agreement. The whole thing was founded on a welcome fool’s hope, and that fool was American. Your problem is, you’re still insisting on the same magical thinking that caused the Iraq war to be such a cock-up: “We’ll be welcomed as liberators!” You want an instant, irrevocable fix for every single problem, all in one magical “signed document”, but that’s not how the real world works. You don’t overcome decades of hostility overnight. It’s a long drawn out process of engagement, backsliding, and re-engagement. It will take years to get Iran or North Korea to a point where they won’t be chanting death to America. And it will take years to get people like you to stop reflexively assuming all Iranians are evil monsters who’s only desire is to destroy Israel and the US. And this is the process that Trump will fail at - in fact, has _already_ failed at with regards to Iran. Because he has the same magical belief in the One True Agreement That Will Fix Everything. He doesn’t have the patience to shepherd a years-long process to completion. The first time NK balks at anything, he’ll rip it all up and declare it a failure. > [@Silver\_lining](#): > > The Supreme Leader ( Ali Khamenei ), is the commander-in-chief of the armed forces and the provisional head of the three branches of the state (the Judiciary, the Legislature, and the Executive). He would need to sign to make it valid. > > He did not. > > More on the power he has can be viewed below: > > [Supreme Leader of Iran - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Leader_of_Iran) So, in addition to all the above, you clearly don’t understand the role of [Ambassadors](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambassador), either. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/632 "2018-06-15T14:50:05Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > So, in addition to all the above, you clearly don’t understand the role of [Ambassadors](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambassador), either. And I guess Secretary of State John Kerry didn’t need to put his signature right there in the middle of it either. Or - perhaps - the SoS and his opposite number in Iran **are** in fact empowered to sign agreements on behalf of their respective administrations. Just a crazy thought. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/633 "2018-06-15T14:54:39Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > It is you who do not understand a thing. Iran is a nation that still burns our flags, and chants death to America. You mean _some_ people in Iran burn our flags and chants death to America. Trump is helping those people by justifying their fear-mongering. Is that good for us? > [@](#): > > Their leader did not sign, because they have no intention of being on record for agreement. You mean their “Supreme Leader” did not sign it, because he’s an anti-US religious fanatic. For similar reasons, the US Congress did not vote for it, which is why this is an Agreement and not a Treaty. But that doesn’t really matter, because both sides were adhering to the agreement. All the things you are complaining about (missile tests etc) aren’t even part of the agreement. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/634 "2018-06-15T15:10:39Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > And I guess Secretary of State John Kerry didn’t need to put his signature right there in the middle of it either. > > Or - perhaps - the SoS and his opposite number in Iran **are** in fact empowered to sign agreements on behalf of their respective administrations. Just a crazy thought. It almost sounds like the flip side of the coin of Sovereign Citizen thinking: Agreements/Treaties can only acquire their Magical Power to Matter if it’s signed by _this one guy_. Presumably while standing under a flag with a gold fringe. The notion that real-world governments are complex systems of interrelating and overlapping responsibilities is lost on him. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/635 "2018-06-15T15:11:45Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > Iran is a nation that still burns our flags, and chants death to America. Using your conveniently loose standards: The U.S.A. is a nation that rapes children, has sex with animals and frames innocent people for murder. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/636 "2018-06-15T15:15:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Using your conveniently loose standards: The U.S.A. is a nation that rapes children, has sex with animals and frames innocent people for murder. And that’s just the failed Republican Senate candidate from Alabama! ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/637 "2018-06-15T17:31:31Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > You mean _some_ people in Iran burn our flags and chants death to America. Trump is helping those people by justifying their fear-mongering. Is that good for us? > You mean their “Supreme Leader” did not sign it, because he’s an anti-US religious fanatic. For similar reasons, the US Congress did not vote for it, which is why this is an Agreement and not a Treaty. > > But that doesn’t really matter, because both sides were adhering to the agreement. All the things you are complaining about (missile tests etc) aren’t even part of the agreement. The USA congress did not vote for it because they knew better, and Obama told them one thing and did something else regarding how Iran accessed funds. Iran would not agree to stop missile testing, which is a reason why there is no mention of it. I realize this is heavily Democratic board, but I’m seeing blind political faith trump objective reasoning. Had Obama actually been able to persuade Congress to sign it, and the leader of Iran to sign it, only then could you call it a treaty. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/638 "2018-06-15T17:36:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Iran is a nation that still burns our flags, and chants death to America.- Silver lining > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Using your conveniently loose standards: The U.S.A. is a nation that rapes children, has sex with animals and frames innocent people for murder. Spinning a fact into senseless reply? No my standards were not loose, just factual. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/639 "2018-06-15T17:37:49Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > The USA congress did not vote for it because they knew better, and Obama told them one thing and did something else regarding how Iran accessed funds. > > Iran would not agree to stop missile testing, which is a reason why there is no mention of it. > > I realize this is heavily Democratic board, but I’m seeing blind political faith trump objective reasoning. > > Had Obama actually been able to persuade Congress to sign it, and the leader of Iran to sign it, only then could you call it a treaty. It’s an agreement, not a treaty, and it’s an agreement that Iran was abiding by and would prevent them from obtaining nuclear weapons for 10-15 years or more. And Trump blew it up, hurting America, and gaining nothing, except helping those Iranian factions that distrust America and believe they need nuclear weapons at all costs. So Trump hurt America and helped Iranian fanatics, while hurting Iranians who want peace and trade, all because he hates Obama. And now he’s helping Kim Jong Un, with no benefit to America, all because he wants the photo ops and admires dictators. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/640 "2018-06-15T17:49:34Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > … Obama told them one thing and did something else regarding how Iran accessed funds. What did he tell them and what did he do? > [@](#): > > Iran would not agree to stop missile testing, which is a reason why there is no mention of it. Right. But Obama (and leaders of other Western nations) decided stopping the nuclear program was a worthy goal in itself and worth lifting some sanctions in exchange. Iran didn’t agree to do _everything_ we wanted them to do, but it agreed to do the most important thing. It would be like if North Korea agreed to abandon nuclear weapons but refused to dismantle their conventional weapons, or refused to start having democratic elections. > [@](#): > > Had Obama actually been able to persuade Congress to sign it, and the leader of Iran to sign it, only then could you call it a treaty. So what? It was a mutually beneficial agreement that both sides _were complying with_. And if the US hadn’t backed out, Iran would not be resuming their nuclear weapons program now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829.md?page=31) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829.md?page=33)