# North Korea suspending missile testing and closing nuclear site; Trump the statesman? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 20, 2018, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829 "2018-04-20T23:09:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 47
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2019, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/921 "2019-11-01T22:33:02Z")
OBAMA! IRAN! OBAMA! IRAN! IRAN CAN HIT US WITH NUKES! Actually, they can’t, but now North Korea can. Well done, Trump and republitards. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2019, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/922 "2019-11-02T04:23:04Z")
At this point it feels like picking on a tropical storm, but SO MUCH WINNING! ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2019, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/923 "2019-11-02T11:48:34Z")
Where’s the OP? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2019, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/924 "2019-11-02T11:50:01Z")
“You’ve _changed_. I fell in love with Liddle’ Rocket Man, not Super-Large Rocket Man!” _\_ ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2019, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/925 "2019-11-19T03:39:52Z")
[Well look who’s calling the shots now](https://apnews.com/718a9fa5764542029928ad1d9d608cb9): > [@](#): > > Senior North Korean official Kim Yong Chol said the U.S. must completely scrap that military drill and abandon its hostility against his country if it wants to see the resumption of the nuclear negotiations. > [@](#): > > “The U.S. tries to make a good impression as if it contributes to peace and stability on the Korean peninsula, describing the suspension (of the aerial drill) as ‘consideration for and concession’ to someone,” Kim Yong Chol said in a statement carried by state media. “But we demand that the U.S. quit the drill or stop it once and for all.” > > North Korea wants the United States to lift international sanctions on it, provide security guarantees and make other concessions in return for abandoning its advancing nuclear arsenal. > [@](#): > > But senior North Korean Foreign Ministry adviser Kim Kye Gwan said Monday his country has no interest in giving Trump further meetings to brag about unless it gets something substantial in return. > > In his Tuesday statement, Kim Yong Chol also accused the U.S. of trying to buy time as a North Korea-set deadline for Washington to work out new proposals by year’s end is approaching. > > “The U.S. should not dream of the negotiations for denuclearization before dropping its hostile policy toward” North Korea, he said. ETA: Trump sure is a great negotiator, isn’t he? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2019, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/926 "2019-11-19T03:43:40Z")
Come on, HurricaneDitka. Time to come back and defend your post. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2019, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/927 "2019-11-19T05:25:42Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Come on, HurricaneDitka. > > Time to come back and defend your post. Well, they’re not launching rockets OVER Japan, just testing ones that can blow up Portland. So much winning! ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2019, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/928 "2019-11-19T13:52:00Z")
I’m trying to figure out why this thread is still being bumped. It’s been over 2 years now since North Korea tested a nuclear weapon or fired an actual ICBM. I see Bo has brought up some man bites dog level North Korean bluster, and there has been some excitement (on this board) about NK firing some short ranged missiles and the equivalent of artillery (MPLS) systems, but the core is they STILL haven’t actually done the stuff we were originally telling them not to do. Frankly, I’m surprised it’s lasted this long. They must REALLY be desperate for an agreement is all I can say, especially since Trump et al are obviously distracted with his endless other foreign policy fuckups and not really paying much attention to North Korea now that they aren’t being big pains in the ass. None of this shows Trump is a statesman, but nothing I’ve seen in this thread shows that, regardless, it’s not working. We have bought 2 years of North Korean in activity wrt testing at least for very little. I’ll say the same thing I said earlier, which is even if they start back up at this point it’s STILL worth it, as they are that much closer to crumbling. Every day North Korea gets that much more sketchy, even with China giving them all sorts of back door assistance. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2019, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/929 "2019-11-19T19:26:54Z")
> [@XT](#): > > None of this shows Trump is a statesman, but nothing I’ve seen in this thread shows that, regardless, it’s not working. We have bought 2 years of North Korean in activity wrt testing at least for very little. I’ll say the same thing I said earlier, which is even if they start back up at this point it’s STILL worth it, as they are that much closer to crumbling. Every day North Korea gets that much more sketchy, even with China giving them all sorts of back door assistance. In the meantime, the Norks have constructed at least [a dozen new nuclear devices.](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/05/north-korea-testing-nuclear-weapons-170504072226461.html) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2019, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/930 "2019-11-19T19:44:23Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > In the meantime, the Norks have constructed at least [a dozen new nuclear devices.](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/05/north-korea-testing-nuclear-weapons-170504072226461.html) Your cite indicates they have had the ability to make 6 new nukes a year since at least 2016 so not really surprising. I do believe that 6+6 does in fact equal a dozen (assuming they made 6 in 2017 and 2018 and we just haven’t counted 2019 as done yet). Unless you believe that had we stayed the course with our old policy they would have magically not made those nukes, it seems a wash to me. There were already going to make them anyway. At least they haven’t tested any ICBMs or nukes in the interim. Mainly, that’s symbolic or even just for show, but it does say something as they were kind of on a path of increasingly provocative ‘tests’ before…while making those 6+ nukes a year of course. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2019, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/931 "2019-11-20T00:18:39Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I’m trying to figure out why this thread is still being bumped. It’s been over 2 years now since North Korea tested a nuclear weapon or fired an actual ICBM. I see Bo has brought up some man bites dog level North Korean bluster, and there has been some excitement (on this board) about NK firing some short ranged missiles and the equivalent of artillery (MPLS) systems, but the core is they STILL haven’t actually done the stuff we were originally telling them not to do. Frankly, I’m surprised it’s lasted this long. They must REALLY be desperate for an agreement is all I can say, especially since Trump et al are obviously distracted with his endless other foreign policy fuckups and not really paying much attention to North Korea now that they aren’t being big pains in the ass. > > None of this shows Trump is a statesman, but nothing I’ve seen in this thread shows that, regardless, it’s not working. We have bought 2 years of North Korean in activity wrt testing at least for very little. I’ll say the same thing I said earlier, which is even if they start back up at this point it’s STILL worth it, as they are that much closer to crumbling. Every day North Korea gets that much more sketchy, even with China giving them all sorts of back door assistance. That’s because you’re completely and utterly missing the point. If there were a pause that were to lead to a real progress, that would be one thing. The reality, however, is that this pause is a lost opportunity. In fact, it’s worse than a lost opportunity, because not only does North Korea not trust the US to actually work toward a mutually-satisfying agreement; even worse, the United States under Trump looks incoherent, weak, ineffectual. Fuck the pause - don’t get distracted by that. What Trump’s foreign policy represents is horrifically dangerous, because when you consider the fact that Trump is now making provocative demands of South Korea and Japan, not only is North Korea not encouraged to participate in nuclear talks; they’re, in fact, quite possibly emboldened. p.s Still waiting for HD. Predictably, he pussed out. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2019, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/932 "2019-11-20T14:09:52Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Fuck the pause - don’t get distracted by that. What Trump’s foreign policy represents is horrifically dangerous, because when you consider the fact that **Trump is now making provocative demands of South Korea and Japan, not only is North Korea not encouraged to participate in nuclear talks; they’re, in fact, quite possibly emboldened.** > > p.s Still waiting for HD. > > Predictably, he pussed out. And on that note, consider this: > **[China signs defence agreement with South Korea as US angers Seoul with demand...](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/11/18/china-signs-defence-agreement-south-korea-us-angers-seoul-demand/)** > > The defence ministers of South Korea and China have agreed to develop their security ties to ensure stability in north-east Asia, the latest indication that Washington’s long-standing alliances in the region are fraying. China signs defence agreement with South Korea as US angers Seoul with demand for $5bn troop payment > [@](#): > > An editorial in Monday’s edition of The Korea Times warned that the security alliance between the two countries “may fall apart due to Washington’s blatantly excessive demands”. > > Mr Trump has previously threatened to withdraw US troops if his demands are not met, with the editorial accusing the president of regarding the Korea-US mutual defence treaty “as a property deal to make money”. > > The vast majority of Koreans agree, with a recent survey by the Korea Institute for National Reunification showing that 96 per cent of people are opposed to Seoul paying more for the US military presence. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2019, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/933 "2019-11-20T19:07:24Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > And on that note, consider this: > > [China signs defence agreement with South Korea as US angers Seoul with demand for $5bn troop payment](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/11/18/china-signs-defence-agreement-south-korea-us-angers-seoul-demand/) > > China signs defence agreement with South Korea as US angers Seoul with demand for $5bn troop payment Another example of Trump playing into the hands of Vladimir Putin, which coincidentally also ends up playing into the hands of China. Trump’s “America first” schtick is going to end up ceding major influence to China. In the process, it helps Putin because, like China, they want a smaller American footprint globally. But China’s the real winner, the real beneficiary of Trump’s bidness acumen – excuse me, scam artistry. When the era of Trump and GOP scams is over, this will be the legacy that their party, and the rest of the country, will have to reckon with. The United States is giving away its power, not because it is running out of money (although with trillion dollar deficits, that could be argued, I suppose), but because of its corrupt and compromised leadership. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2019, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/934 "2019-11-20T19:41:04Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > When the era of Trump and GOP scams is over, this will be the legacy that their party, and the rest of the country, will have to reckon with. The United States is giving away its power, not because it is running out of money (although with trillion dollar deficits, that could be argued, I suppose), but because of its corrupt and compromised leadership. I just hope that in the coming years, everything is not just simply swept under the rug with the old "Oh, that’s ancient history, no use in going after those Republicans, yadda yadda, for the good of the country, yadda yadda, look forward, not backward… The massive Republican corruption, the links between Russia and the NRA, the collusion of Bill Barr, McConnell et al need to be rooted out, stem, branch and twig. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2019, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/935 "2019-11-20T20:22:42Z")
I was among those who thought that prosecuting Bush and Cheney for their Iraq adventure was preposterous. But what’s happened since 2016 is on an entirely different scale. It’s important that lots of Republicans go to jail for this unforgivable corruption and selling out of the nation’s interests, and I don’t care if it divides the country; there’s no uniting it anyhow. There’s no uniting anything until we start forcing people to accept some facts, and the fact is they have sold out their countries. And there must be a price for that. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2019, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/936 "2019-12-03T18:13:42Z")
North Korea continues to posture from a position of strength: [North Korea says it’s up to US to choose ‘Christmas gift’](https://apnews.com/3ffc14ac9bf54ae382c2d885e2e54e52) > [@](#): > > North Korea on Tuesday repeated its assertions that the Trump administration is running out of time to salvage nuclear negotiations, saying it’s entirely up to the United States to choose what “Christmas gift” it gets from the North. > > The statement, attributed to a senior diplomat, came as North Korea continues to dial up pressure on Washington and Seoul ahead of leader Kim Jong Un’s end-of-year deadline for the U.S. to offer mutually acceptable terms for a deal. What if the ‘gift’ is an attack on Seoul? Or Tokyo? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2019, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/937 "2019-12-03T19:52:55Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > North Korea continues to posture from a position of strength: [North Korea says it’s up to US to choose ‘Christmas gift’](https://apnews.com/3ffc14ac9bf54ae382c2d885e2e54e52)What if the ‘gift’ is an attack on Seoul? Or Tokyo? If the sanctions aren’t lifted, then we’ll go back to seeing a lot more provocation on their part. Trump has squandered any time and leverage it had, and the leverage is increasingly with NK. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2019, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/938 "2019-12-03T22:26:08Z")
Winning! Am I right? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2019, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/939 "2019-12-03T23:04:29Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I’m trying to figure out why this thread is still being bumped. It’s been over 2 years now since North Korea tested a nuclear weapon or fired an actual ICBM. I see Bo has brought up some man bites dog level North Korean bluster, and there has been some excitement (on this board) about NK firing some short ranged missiles and the equivalent of artillery (MPLS) systems, but the core is they STILL haven’t actually done the stuff we were originally telling them not to do. Frankly, I’m surprised it’s lasted this long. They must REALLY be desperate for an agreement is all I can say, especially since Trump et al are obviously distracted with his endless other foreign policy fuckups and not really paying much attention to North Korea now that they aren’t being big pains in the ass. > > None of this shows Trump is a statesman, but nothing I’ve seen in this thread shows that, regardless, it’s not working. We have bought 2 years of North Korean in activity wrt testing at least for very little. I’ll say the same thing I said earlier, which is even if they start back up at this point it’s STILL worth it, as they are that much closer to crumbling. Every day North Korea gets that much more sketchy, even with China giving them all sorts of back door assistance. If you are suggesting North Korea hasn’t tested or developed new weapons milestones, I would point out that [North Korea tested an SLBM 2 months ago.](https://thediplomat.com/2019/10/north-korea-finally-unveils-the-pukguksong-3-slbm-first-takeaways/) . They have also been doing shorter-range tests that threaten US allies, and we’ve been ignoring them because they don’t threaten the US mainland. If you are suggesting that Trump’s diplomacy is to thank for the absence of nuclear tests, I would remind you (as has been brought up here many times) that North Korea lacks a test site because [their previous one collapsed from test damage.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/26/north-korea-nuclear-test-site-collapse-may-be-out-of-action-china) That situation won’t last forever; assuredly they are rebuilding. There are no good options in North Korea, so I’m not going to be harder on Trump than I was on Obama. I believe that cowardly engaging in bullshit diplomatic exercise is better than engaging in nuclear brinksmanship. But it violates Occam’s razor in several different ways to suggest that there’s anything going on here except North Korea was at a disadvantage when their test site collapsed, and Trump’s desperation for a deal gave them the political cover they needed to regroup from that setback while simultaneously building out the second leg of a nuclear triad. But really, the only hint we need to what’s going on is that NK now has the confidence to make public threats to squeeze Trump for more concessions. We all know what the outcome is going to be; Trump is either going to cave again, or NK will cross another line again. At that point folks will have to admit that Trump got nothing for all his abasement to a foreign dictator. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2019, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/940 "2019-12-03T23:21:47Z")
There are no great options, but there’s one option that could work and that’s a gradual reduction in sanctions in exchange for good behavior. But considering that the diplomatic canon ever since the end of WWII stipulates that America be the dominant power and that it must force nations perceived to be weaker to capitulate before we will even negotiate with them, I don’t expect much success no matter who’s president – especially when countries like Iran and North Korea now, thanks to our smashing success in Iraq, have a much better understanding of our real world tendencies to change regimes and know that the only language we speak and respect is deterrent through WMD capabilities. The problem with our foreign policy is that we have no credibility as a force that seeks peace - this was true even before Trump arrived in Washington. A more ominous problem that has developed since the dawn of the Trump era is that we’re increasingly unpredictable, erratic, vague, and contradictory. That’s the sort of thing that invites miscalculation, and a single miscalculation with a country like North Korea can have devastating consequences - for all parties. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829.md?page=46) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829.md?page=48)