# North Korea suspending missile testing and closing nuclear site; Trump the statesman? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 20, 2018, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829 "2018-04-20T23:09:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 48
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/941 "2019-12-04T13:05:43Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > There are no great options, but there’s one option that could work and that’s a gradual reduction in sanctions in exchange for good behavior. But considering that the diplomatic canon ever since the end of WWII stipulates that America be the dominant power and that it must force nations perceived to be weaker to capitulate before we will even negotiate with them, I don’t expect much success no matter who’s president – especially when countries like Iran and North Korea now, thanks to our smashing success in Iraq, have a much better understanding of our real world tendencies to change regimes and know that the only language we speak and respect is deterrent through WMD capabilities. But that’s all contradicted by Obama having established the Iran Nuclear Deal, which was working well until Trump shit all over it. The Iran deal proves that mature, measured negotiation and compromise can work, just so long as we have people completely unlike Trump doing the work. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/942 "2019-12-04T13:51:44Z")
27 days until the deadline, and Trump still [thinks North Korea has agreed to get rid of its nuclear weapons:](https://www.eurasiareview.com/03122019-press-conference-nato-secretary-general-stoltenberg-and-us-president-trump-transcript/) > [@](#): > > But, you know, my relationship with Kim Jong Un is really good, but that doesn’t mean he won’t abide by the agreement we signed. You have to understand. You have to go and look at the first agreement that we signed. It said he will denuclearize. That’s what it said. I hope he lives up to the agreement, but we’re going to find out. I guess that means he’s chosen a [Christmas gift](https://kcnawatch.org/newstream/1575450056-145581427/deputy-foreign-minister-issues-statement/) by default: > [@](#): > > What is left to be done now is the US option and it is entirely up to the US what Christmas gift it will select to get. Yippee. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/943 "2019-12-04T14:26:01Z")
So, this thread aged well, huh? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/944 "2019-12-04T20:59:31Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > But that’s all contradicted by Obama having established the Iran Nuclear Deal, which was working well until Trump shit all over it. The Iran deal proves that mature, measured negotiation and compromise can work, just so long as we have people completely unlike Trump doing the work. The Iran deal indeed proves that measure negotiation and compromise can work. It was a multilateral compromise to avoid what would have been a potentially disastrous escalation into a regional war. The Iran deal was an example of how to apply economic pressure: Obama was giving Iran something possibly to look forward to. Trump has gone back to the “we don’t speak to evil” way of approaching diplomacy, and the results have been predictable. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/945 "2019-12-05T15:44:16Z")
[North Korea](https://twitter.com/joshjonsmith/status/1202580810462892033): > [@](#): > > “If any language and expressions stoking the atmosphere of confrontation are used once again on purpose at a crucial moment as now, that must really be diagnosed as the relapse of the dotage of a dotard.” ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/946 "2019-12-05T15:49:27Z")
Sounds like someone’s been consulting with Tulsi Gabbard’s rhetoric coach. ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/947 "2019-12-05T16:00:05Z")
“The relapse of the dotage of a dotard” is Trump in a nutshell. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/948 "2019-12-05T17:33:24Z")
We know that North Korea is going to start ramping up the pressure in an effort to get sanctions lifted, and pressure in this context means increasingly obvious displays of advanced military capabilities. If (when) North Korea reignites tensions, it will embolden criticism of Trump’s detente and make it more likely that he would respond to escalation with counter-escalation and even force. Moreover, Trump has fewer foreign policy experts to lean on now than he did when this thread started. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2019, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/949 "2019-12-07T22:14:31Z")
["denuclearization is off the table"](https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/07/us/north-korea-denuclearization-off-table/index.html)according to N. Korea officials. Perhaps the OP can now ask the mods to change the title of this thread to “Trump the Dupe? N. Korea plays him” ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2019, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/950 "2019-12-07T22:51:03Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > ["denuclearization is off the table"](https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/07/us/north-korea-denuclearization-off-table/index.html)according to N. Korea officials. > > Perhaps the OP can now ask the mods to change the title of this thread to “Trump the Dupe? N. Korea plays him” It isn’t Trump who is getting played. It’s his base and his apologists. They want to be played, and he’s obliging. This is going to continue until he is out of office. Trump is indifferent to whether North Korea denuclearizes. He’s just pulling bullshit theatrics to make it look like he’s winning. Now that the denuclearization bullshit is played out, he’ll pivot to some other bullshit story that his base will eagerly believe for as long as it’s necessary. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2019, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/951 "2019-12-07T23:11:46Z")
I’d just like to sit back and remark upon how utterly absurd the OP of this thread is, and that it’s almost unbelievable that some folks really thought this was a possibility with this President. It was eminently foreseeable that the Trump foreign policy WRT North Korea would be bumbling, chaotic, and nonsensical, with no significant positive results. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2019, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/952 "2019-12-07T23:39:35Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’d just like to sit back and remark upon how utterly absurd the OP of this thread is, and that it’s almost unbelievable that some folks really thought this was a possibility with this President. It was eminently foreseeable that the Trump foreign policy WRT North Korea would be bumbling, chaotic, and nonsensical, with no significant positive results. Some might claim that a three year interval of ‘peace’ with North Korea _is_ a positive result. If you believe(d) that NK will never relinquish its nuclear weapons (which needed no confirmation IMO), the best one could hope for is a prolongation of the status quo, a relatively peaceful one. So it is not a totally absurd belief. ETA: It is definitely absurd though to attribute any rational, considered plan to Trump. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2019, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/953 "2019-12-08T00:02:52Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Some might claim that a three year interval of ‘peace’ with North Korea _is_ a positive result. I’m really not sure it counts as a positive that a sham diplomatic effort took 3 years to collapse and leave us in a more dangerous position than before. I am glad we didn’t have a nuclear war in the past 3 years, but we don’t get to live in that 3-year period indefinitely. The bill is now due. We traded those 3 years of detente for the current reality in which NK diplomatic and military position has strengthened, and the US diplomatic position has weakened. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2019, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/954 "2019-12-08T07:12:25Z")
North Korea is no longer waiting for the end of the year: [North Korea says it carried out ‘very important test’](https://apnews.com/771a2235054d115a526ee8dcc2bd6295) Trump is a dupe. He did everything Kim wanted: he backed off and allowed NK to carry on with their plans with little or no scrutiny. > [@](#): > > North Korea said Sunday it carried out a “very important test” at its long-range rocket launch site that will have a key effect on the country’s strategic position. > > The Korean Central News Agency said the test was conducted at the Sohae Satellite Launching Ground on Saturday afternoon. It said that the result of the test was reported to the Central Committee of the ruling Workers’ Party. > > The test results will have “an important effect on changing the strategic position of (North Korea) once again in the near future,” the agency reported. > > The report didn’t say what the test was about. But media reports say a new satellite image indicated North Korea may be preparing to resume testing engines used to power satellite launchers at the site. > [@](#): > > The U.N. bans North Korea from launching satellites because it is considered a test of long-range missile technology. > > After repeated failures, North Korea successfully put a satellite into orbit for the first time in 2012 in a launch from the same site. North Korea had another successful satellite launch in 2016. > > At the United Nations, a statement released by North Korea’s U.N. ambassador, Kim Song, said that denuclearization had “already gone out of the negotiation table.” It said North Korea does not need to have lengthy talks with the United States as the end-of-year deadline set by its leader Kim Jong Un for substantial U.S. concessions in nuclear diplomacy looms. Which means, they already got what they wanted, for the most part. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2019, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/955 "2019-12-08T13:27:48Z")
I could see the North Korean nutjob trying to hit an uninhabited US island with a missile. Something like one of the Aleutians. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2019, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/956 "2019-12-08T13:51:30Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Some might claim that a three year interval of ‘peace’ with North Korea _is_ a positive result. Yeah, man. The number of American troops dying in the Second Korean War was really appalling. Letting our men and women in uniform come home is 100% positive. (Maybe I’m missing something here–but what are you talking about?) ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2019, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/957 "2019-12-08T13:55:26Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > North Korea is no longer waiting for the end of the year: [North Korea says it carried out ‘very important test’](https://apnews.com/771a2235054d115a526ee8dcc2bd6295) > > Trump is a dupe. He did everything Kim wanted: he backed off and allowed NK to carry on with their plans with little or no scrutiny.Which means, they already got what they wanted, for the most part. It was wise, I think, to back off and engage with North Korea – that part of the equation wasn’t wrong. But it was damn wrong to engage without a realistic game plan. The only thing Trump got out of this that was in any conceivable way positive was an unprecedented, and limited, period of detente with a dangerous despot. But the threat of a North Korean conflict never went away because he fundamentally misunderstood what Kim was asking for, and even if others did understand his motives, they insisted on sticking to an outdated game plan that insisted on meeting US demands first – unrealistic demands, I might add – before any sort of real negotiation could take place. Trump’s reckless trade war with China didn’t help, either. Where’s the incentive for China to enforce sanctions now? And now South Korea and Japan both have to seriously question the value of their alliance with the US. Under normal circumstances, that value would be self-evident: every single president up to this point, Republican and Democrat, realized the importance of that alliance for all parties. Trump seriously does not have the slightest fucking clue what he’s doing, and his damn fanboys better wake up and smell the shitcake that’s baking in the oven. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2019, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/958 "2019-12-08T17:36:01Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Some might claim that a three year interval of ‘peace’ with North Korea _is_ a positive result. > [@asahi](#): > > It was wise, I think, to back off and engage with North Korea – that part of the equation wasn’t wrong. But it was damn wrong to engage without a realistic game plan. The only thing Trump got out of this that was in any conceivable way positive was an unprecedented, and limited, period of detente with a dangerous despot. I’m with **Left Hand of Dorkness** on this one: what the fuck are you two talking about? 😕 How is the past 3 years any different than the previous 20? A Kim is still in power and he’s been advancing his countries nuclear weapons goals steadily. If anything, he’s had _less_ resistance from the US and other nations since Trump took office; it’s been easier for North Korea to work towards their goals these past few years. Trump has squandered three entire years with respect to North Korea and he’s done it in such a way that the fourth year can already be written off. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2019, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/959 "2019-12-08T19:18:18Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Trump has squandered three entire years with respect to North Korea and he’s done it in such a way that the fourth year can already be written off. And somehow managed to piss of pretty much all of our allies in the region. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2019, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/960 "2019-12-08T19:29:42Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I’m with **Left Hand of Dorkness** on this one: what the fuck are you two talking about? 😕 > > How is the past 3 years any different than the previous 20? A Kim is still in power and he’s been advancing his countries nuclear weapons goals steadily. If anything, he’s had _less_ resistance from the US and other nations since Trump took office; it’s been easier for North Korea to work towards their goals these past few years. > > Trump has squandered three entire years with respect to North Korea and he’s done it in such a way that the fourth year can already be written off. I’m not sure what your disagreement is about. I agree that Trump has made it easy for North Korea to pursue his nuclear ambitions. My only point was that Trump – and I think it’s a case of a broken clock just happening to be right twice a day – had an opening to engage Kim in a manner that could have turned out to be productive. But as I said in my post, Trump’s team – and probably because his team is himself – had absolutely no game plan. So while the engagement part was, in my view, the right step toward progress, it was squandered because Trump fundamentally misunderstood how to use his opportunity to make substantive progress, and for that, he would have had to talk about suspending a portion of the sanctions in exchange for a verifiable system of suspending his weapons program. What we needed was a North Korean version of the Iranian deal – something that allows a stubbornly hostile regime like North Korea to have a motivation to play nice with the US and other global powers. My view is that Kim is not using this opportunity to say ‘Ha ha, you’re a sucker, fat ass!’ – I think what Kim really wants now is a deal that suspends sanctions. This is an extremely dangerous situation for the very reason that Kim is now to the point at which he will most surely engage in provocation in order to get sanctions stopped. If I’m reading it right, though, he’s at a point where he’s feeling more confident about his ability to survive these sanctions, and he’s confident that he can discourage any kind of military strike against him, which leads me to believe he must think that he has - and he probably does have - some pretty impressive bombs and missiles to play with. And he’s about to show us what he’s got. And as always, it’s going to be how the military and his the CiC responds to that challenge. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829.md?page=47) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829.md?page=49)